9 ms·

What's the problem here? Did they leave the apartments uncleaned or...? One of the biggest human rights insults around the world is making prostitution illegal

• vosper 10y ago
  Clearly you didn't read the article at all: they left used condoms, tissues, and empty bottles of wine all over the apartment. The owner had to clean it up, which was probably quite gross for him. That actually seems to be a big part of his complaint - he even says that if they hadn't made a mess he wouldn't have known what had happened, and would have probably accepted a repeat booking. I agree with your points, but consider reading TFA at least.
  • petre 10y ago
    It's part of the trade when you run lodging spaces. Hotels also clean up after their customers.
    • csydas 10y ago
      Well, strictly speaking AirBnB is not a hotel. Likewise, you're supposed to abide by house rules. I have no idea what the author had set for their rental, but I have yet to see an AirBnB posting that didn't ask that you please keep the place tidy. Given the enthusiastic response I got from my last host when my partner and I took the time to give the apartment a once-over when we left, I'm guessing that this is a persistent problem where guests just leave a place trashed. Some cleaning is obviously anticipated by the cleaning fees; you wash the linens, still give the place a good scrubbing between guests, etc., but I think it's fair to expect the guests to tidy up a little if you're upfront that this is part of the agreement on the listing. Likewise, even hotels will charge for outrageous damage or messes to their properties. Security deposits in the US for even really cheap hotels are pretty common, usually requiring a credit card with a $100 charge that is cancelled/returned later.
      • mirekrusin 10y ago
        Airbnb has deposit/protection. They should just charge professional cleaning if it was a mess, no?
        • csydas 10y ago
          Some do - I'm not really sure why it's relevant though, if you agree with the host that you'll keep the place tidy, and you don't, you're in breach of your agreement. It's not just a matter of throw money at it since it can impact business, especially for popular destinations or high tourist times when the places are booked solid for a few months. Having to be out a few days can throw off the schedule, which is crappy for the next guest and crappy for the host. It's not just about the initial money - really bad messes can affect more than just the host and cause problems you can't just solve with money. Too high of a deposit and no one will rent, but if someone's mess disrupts, then the deposit isn't enough to cover losses.
      • prostoalex 10y ago
        AirBnB has a concept of a cleaning fee that can be set by the owner. A reasonable cleaning fee, however, significantly raises the price for short-term stays (while amortizing better for longer stays), which leaves the AirBnB hosts with two choices: 1) Hire a professional cleaner, set cleaning fee, lose some short-term customers. 2) Do not set the cleaning fee, expect to do cleaning yourself, complain loudly in public when this turns up to be the case.
    • branchless 10y ago
      But it's not a hotel. This is a dynamic entrepreneur, imaginearing to a better future. Rentiers don't do work like picking up things. They just collect the profits.
  • dazc 10y ago
    "... he even says that if they hadn't made a mess he wouldn't have known what had happened, and would have probably accepted a repeat booking." Seems odd that they wouldn't have made an effort to clean-up since having a good profile is more or less essential to being able to rent another airbnb appt?
    • chrischen 10y ago
      Only if you are a host. A paying user can get pretty much anything even with no reviews.
  • bambax 10y ago
    > they left used condoms, tissues, and empty bottles of wine all over the apartment No. From the article: > I found used condom wrappers under the bed, I found the bin was overflowing with tissues and condoms. Not sure what "overflowing" means exactly in this context, but you can't read in the article that there were used condoms all over the apartment. A condom wrapper is just a piece of clean plastic, very different from a used condom. Also, what's the difference when people are having sex in your bed, whether they're married, friends, or engaged in pay-for-sex?
    • johnchristopher 10y ago
      > Also, what's the difference when people are having sex in your bed, whether they're married, friends, or engaged in pay-for-sex? In the grand scheme of things there isn't but I suppose the plaintiff worried about being criminally associated with unlawful behaviour. People aren't machines, they have feelings and sometimes they project those on their belongings. I consider it normal to feel something upon learning you have been deceived by people not coming upfront about what they really were going to use your home for. I believe this has nothing to do with one's stance on prostitution.
      • pharrlax 10y ago
        >criminally associated with unlawful behaviour This is a crime? If a prostitute brings a john back to a hotel room, the police can arrest the hotel owner?
        • protomyth 10y ago
          Hotels have legal protections, Airbnb frequently violates the rules and I wouldn't want to be the person caught in the middle when a local prosecutor wants to make that point.
        • johnchristopher 10y ago
          I don't know about UK laws but where I live you would be suspected of helping and being active in a prostitution ring. But you are misquoting me a little bit.
  • zeroer 10y ago
    I rent hotels and leave "condoms, tissues, and empty bottles of wine" all the time. That's what the staff is paid to clean up.
    • foepys 10y ago
      > condoms, tissues Why don't you throw them into the trash bin that every hotel room has?
      • Dylan16807 10y ago
        Where did you get that implication? The article talked about them being in/on the trash can, and zeroer made no implication they had done anything different.
        • joombaga 10y ago
          "zeroer"? I haven't heard that term.
          • tqkxzugoaupvwqr 10y ago
            It's the username of a parent comment.
          • zeroer 10y ago
            I've never heard of a joombaga, so we're even.
            • joombaga 10y ago
              Ha! My bad. I took it to mean something like "grand-parent commenter" and never checked your username.
  • whiddershins 10y ago
    HN guidelines request that you do not imply a commenter has not read the original article.
    • criddell 10y ago
      Are you insinuating that he didn't read the guidelines?
• DanBC 10y ago
  The is England, where people having sex for money is not illegal. The article says: > I found the bin was overflowing with tissues and condoms. And basically what I had to do was pick all that up with my hands. The sex workers probably have regular testing for STIs, but the clients may not have this testing.
  • xhedley 10y ago
    Buying and selling sex in a private space in England isn't illegal. But two or more women selling sex in a single property constitutes "brothel-keeping" which is a criminal offence. Owning a "brothel" is also a criminal offence, which I believe is part of the reason the owner was upset.
  • eutectic 10y ago
    He could have used gloves or held the bin with a cloth. And besides, anyone can leave a mess and prostitutes should be fully capable of not leaving a mess.
    • DanBC 10y ago
      > and prostitutes should be fully capable of not leaving a mess. Yes, and the article mentions that he was surprised by the mess, and that they would have had repeat bookings if they hadn't left a mess.
• DoctorNick 10y ago
  Legalizing prostitution causes increases in human trafficking. https://journalistsresource.org/studies/international/human-rights/legalized-prostitution-human-trafficking-inflows https://journalistsresource.org/studies/international/human-...
  • barrkel 10y ago
    And illegal prostitution creates more danger for prostitutes since they can't rely on normal mechanisms for crime prevention.
    • mafribe 10y ago
      Yes. And it's perfectly rational and advisable for prostitutes to move from legal systems where prostitution is illegal (hence dangerous) to legal systems where it is legal (hence safe).
    • deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  • mjevans 10y ago
    Surely that's more a lack of proper regulations and enforcement. Things designed to keep safety and standards instead of punishment and determent. Elaborating: If there is sufficient /convenient/, legal, not over-priced, service for the clients that clearly do exist then underground (criminal) fulfillment is much less profitable. Making onerous (for no good reason) regulations are one form of increasing the price of legal services and thus making it more profitable for unwanted fulfillment to occur.
  • mafribe 10y ago
    What makes "journalistsresource.org" a credible resource? It's located at Harvard Kennedy School of Government which is basically an "elite factory" for the (re-)production of the US political elite -- just look at their alumni [2] and faculty [1]. The US's official policy is extremely anti legalisation of prostitution. In this context, "journalistsresource.org" looks like an instrument of projecting soft power [3], a mechanism to communicate US government policy, but obscuring the origin. I recommend being a little bit more reflective on the nature of your sources. I also recommend to be suspicious of the term "trafficking" in this context. It's an attack term that is intended to appeal to your emotions, you are expected to think of 7 year old girls being 'stolen' from some destitute 3rd world country and being 'sold' into prostitution in a country where prostitution is legal (eg. Holland). However to a pretty good approximation this doesn't happen. Where prostitution is legal, essentially all (to a pretty good approximation) women who work in prostituion are adults and choose their job, in the same way that others become lorry drivers or carpenters. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_School_of_Government#Notable_faculty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_School_of_Gove... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_School_of_Government#Notable_alumni https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_School_of_Gove... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• ajeet_dhaliwal 10y ago
  If the owner envisioned a family coming to stay, perhaps from out of town for a holiday etc, but then instead realized on return that it has been used by a prostitute and a series of men had walked in repeatedly to have sex on the bed one after each other and with each one everyone cleaning themselves up in the bathrooms I can understand how it would feel like a violation. That said, this can always happen and you can't control what someone does once they have your apartment so he's only got himself to blame really, I would not rent out my apartment because I can't deal with knowing someone was in there even taking a simple shower but I understand that about myself and don't care about any income I'm missing out on having it be empty when I'm away.
• cornholio 10y ago
  I believe the problem is they earned £5000 while only paying £85 to the owner. A riot.
  • Markoff 10y ago
    no, he said it can accommodate 4 people making it 85 per person, he earned 340
• obscureanimal 10y ago
  2) It's a matter of incentives. If you make murder illegal, people are still going to kill people but you disincentivize murder thus reducing its numbers.
• grondilu 10y ago
  dura lex, sed lex The problem is that you can disagree with laws, yet refuse to be lured into infringing them. Personally there are plenty of laws I disagree with, yet I comply because I don't want to go to jail.
• fpoling 10y ago
  Yet consider the case when your spouse engages in sex activities. Should it still be not your business? That points that there is a pressure to control sex that lead to laws that try to regulate or restrict that.
• return0 10y ago
  The writer of the article does not make a judgement apparently, instead presents the two sides of the issue. I 'm not even sure it's considered a 'problem'. The legal issue is that his apartment became a brothel illegally, but it seems the fault is with the prostitutes, since he did not run the business himself.
• arnoooooo 10y ago
  You could say the same with minimum wage laws, in that they prevent people from from accepting a lower payed job. Why would the government decide what job you can and can't accept ? I definitely want to live in a world where someone's body can't be monetized for any reason. It's the buyer who should be punished though, not the seller.
• pnut 10y ago
  I doubt that Airbnb's terms of service include using the space for commercial purposes? I mean, could I rent an Airbnb for a month and run an auto repair shop out of the garage? It's in violation of the zoning.
  • Turing_Machine 10y ago
    "It's in violation of the zoning." So is renting your apartment by the day, in many places.
  • Spooky23 10y ago
    Remember, in HN zoning is abusive and petty regulation intended to raise rents and protect legacy markets and people. Freedom means turning any apartment anywhere into a brothel.
• M_Grey 10y ago
  If they opened a pop-up restaurant or nightclub, I'd be pissed too; this wasn't a contract to sublet a space for commercial use after all. You can get libertarian about sex work, while ignoring the abuse of an agreement between to parties.
  • JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    I don't think a brothel serves as many people as a restaurant in an evening? Those other examples are skewed toward obvious wear-and-tear and traffic problems. While the brothel example might not be distinguishable from a couple on vacation having a party, except for the money-changing-hands angle. Lets admit, its the moral angle at issue. The rest is after-the-fact arguments pasted on to make it seem like an objective thing.
    • M_Grey 10y ago
      I don't know if it's moral or "squigged out". The former I have no patience for, the latter... I'm human too, and I like spiders, but they repulse me. Sometimes we don't make a ton of sense, but when you don't agree to rent out your home as a brothel, you shouldn't have to worry about it being used as one. As to wear and tear... it's a brothel... and not in a movie; you might be surprised at the turnover. Edit: I realize that "have no patience for" sounds pretty snotty... I've been a little sleep deprived lately and it isn't bringing out the best in me, sorry. Edit 2: I also realize that the issue of the brothel, totally aside from the homeowner's feelings, might represent a property value issue, in the same way as a previous murder. It doesn't have to sensible for it to hit him in the pocket; obviously sex work doesn't leave some kind of "spiritual residue" anymore than violent death, but people are often irrational.
• smsm42 10y ago
  Yes, the article should be named "Airbnb guests fail to clean up after themselves, owner outraged". But then I guess it'd be hard to sell it as something worth an article on BBC. All the rest - the fact that people had sex in the apartment (not exactly out of the normal unless one rents exclusively to monastic orders) or that money may have been exchanged (totally not owner's business) - sounds completely irrelevant and an attempt to foment moral panic.
• grimskin 10y ago
  If I understood article correctly - problem was that there were 2 women renting his place. Afaik - prostitution is legal there, but brothels are not, and place with more than one "escort" persons is considered brothel from legal point of view, so owner of the property was afraid that he'll be considered part of that.
• bobbington 10y ago
  Prostitution is wicked and evil. It is a stain on the land. People need to use their sexuality responsibly. It's absolutely important for the government to make it illegal because adultery leads to divorce, which leads to destruction of families, which leads to crime. (~70% of people in prison had no father in their household growing up). Legallizing sexual perversion has the effect of nullifying the sanctity of marriage. That has a devastating effect on kids. Staying faithful in marriage is a fundamental aspect to a healthy society. Since America has decided that responsible sexuality is stupid, we have so many terrible results. You used to be able to let your kids play outside. Today you can't for fear they will be kidnapped by a pedophile. The effects of free sex are terrible on the next generation. I'm not trying to be an evil restrictionist here. But we need to be responsible. And the government certainly should punish such evil behavior, tempting people to cheat on their families.