6 ms·

Uber contract 'gibberish', says British MP investigating gig economy

81 points by davidgerard 10y ago

arethuza 10y ago
I suspect most contracts are gibberish - the only ones anyone really looks at in detail are the ones where there is a dispute and that's a tiny percentage. Ask a litigator what they think about the people who drafted the contracts and they generally aren't particularly kind. Edit: I wasn't meaning employment contracts which are special cases, like consumer contracts.
- reallydontask 10y ago
  Not sure where you are based nor what your line of business is so it's hard to say whether your speaking in general terms or based on experience. I've never signed a gibberish contract of employment. This is not to say that I was happy with all the clauses but they all were sensible and, to my limited knowledge, legal.
- mattmanser 10y ago
  I've read all my past employment contracts and all of them have been readable and understandable (UK). I've even gone back and challenged points before and got some removed or, for example, been given a waiver allowing me to run a company in my spare time (as the contract said you couldn't unless you had asked). I realise I have much higher reading comprehension than most people, and have more bargaining power than a Deliveroo rider, but I find it crazy someone wouldn't read their own employment contract from start to end.
  - arethuza 10y ago
    Actually, on the subject of employment contracts (which I wasn't talking about originally) I've had to resort to multiple lawyers who gave conflicting advice on seemingly innocent and clearly written parts of a contract I had. The experienced lawyer who realised what trick a particular clause was trying to pull saved me quite a chunk of cash!
    - biot 10y ago
      What was the trick?
      - arethuza 10y ago
        I can't remember the details - was over 2 years ago. But I was on 6 months notice and I was leaving for my current job and I (i.e. my lawyer) negotiated getting 3 months pay out of them and it was something to do with the tax on that lump sum - either they would have had to pay or I would. They wanted me to sign a severance agreement under pressure and I handed it across to the lawyer and he did a splendid job of negotiating away all the silly terms and got them to pay his legal fee (which is actually pretty common in the UK).
  - scaryclam 10y ago
    I'm in the same boat here. Heck, I make it clear that I won't even hand in my notice until I'm happy with the contract and it's signed. If a prospective employer won't allow contractual changes or clarify parts of the contract that are too broad, run away.
    - Ensorceled 10y ago
      .. and if they say something like "oh, don't worry, our VC lawyers just wanted that clause, we would NEVER enforce that", run very fast.
- kasey_junk 10y ago
  For employment contracts? I was under the impression it was in everybody's best interest to make those very clear (at least in the US) as their enforceability depended on it. I've certainly read every employment agreement I've ever signed & never encountered an unclear one.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    What sort of things do employment contracts say in the US? I live in the US and I've had 9 jobs in my life (none startups) and the only thing I've ever signed or been asked to sign was a note saying I'm employed "at will" and NDAs.
    - Symbiote 10y ago
      This is from mine in the UK, but I'd guess the non "at will" states would be similar? "You will normally be required to work a five-day week of 41 hours gross, Monday to Friday, including meal breaks." "The annual leave entitlement for full time staff is as follows: on appointment: 30 days ... You are encouraged to take the full annual leave allowance to which you are entitled." "You may be allowed sick absence on full pay, less any social security benefit received for up to six months in any 12 months and after that, on half pay, up to a maximum of 12 months sick absence in any period of 4 years or less." "Should you wish to leave the organisation you will be expected to give 4 weeks notice in writing to your line manager." "Travel, Subsistence and Other Expense: If you are required to be absent from your normal place of work on the business of [company], travelling expenses and subsistence allowances will be paid in accordance with the regulations set out in Travel Manual." The contract is 7 pages long, but with big line spacing and only 1 or 2 sentences in each clause. It covers salary, benefits (leave, sick pay etc), notice periods, the pension scheme, expected conduct, the complaints procedure, and lists the trade unions that had representation (it's from a public sector organisation). In comparison, the Uber one is 16 pages of dense text with lots of legal terms and a glossary.
      - arethuza 10y ago
        My first job contract ~30 years ago was from a UK university and was less than 1 page, basically said that I would get paid X, report to Prof Y and I'd have <huge number> of holidays and that it would be nice if I turned up occasionally.
- pluma 10y ago
  I'm confused by the responses about employment contracts because I literally can't think of Uber's contracts as employment contracts. The entire purpose of those contracts is to identify drivers as _not employees_. It's much more like an EULA or TOS, which are almost always complete gibberish that doesn't hold up in court indeed (at least in EU courts that is).
Symbiote 10y ago
The actual Uber [Contract] is found on the [Evidence] page of the most recent work and pensions committee [report]. There are Amazon and Deliveroo contracts too. [Contract] http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/work-and-pensions/Written_Evidence/Uber-BV-Driver-Services-Agreement-20-10-2015.pdf http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/work-a... [Evidence] http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/work-and-pensions-committee/inquiries/parliament-2015/self-employment-gig-economy-16-17/publications/ http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/... [Report] http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/work-and-pensions-committee/news-parliament-2015/gig-economy-evidence-published-16-17/ http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/...
zelos 10y ago
"[An Uber] spokesperson said: “Almost all taxi and private hire drivers in the UK are self-employed"" Is that true? Most taxis I see in an area are from 2-3 large local companies: are they employing drivers on a similar basis to Uber? It seems like a pretty simple thing for the Guardian to fact check.
- pessimizer 10y ago
  Journalists only fact check things the impressions given political statements now, on a 1-5 scale of truthiness.
- dspillett 10y ago
  A lot of taxi drivers are essentially self employed and working under franchise, or similar arrangements, IIRC. I don't know for sure (in other words: rampant speculation follows!) but I expect it is a way for the taxi firm to dodge various responsibilities regarding health & safety, insurance, tax, and so forth, by passing them on to the "self employed" driver.
  - Declanomous 10y ago
    I don't know how it works in England, which could very well have substantially different labor laws, but in many major cities in the US the cabbies either rent the vehicle or rent the taxi medallion from the cab company. It's kind of like how the sometimes people who deliver newspapers technically buy those newspapers from the newspaper and then collect the delivery fee.
  - notahacker 10y ago
    I suspect it's mostly about flexibility: the firm doesnt have to worry about balancing driver availability (either complying with labour laws or not having them available at peak times) because they get paid exclusively in fares so will be available every hour that's humanly possible. As I understand it my local firm's drivers pay a weekly fee for use of car and dispatch service, and take the fees, so aren't in a very different situation from Uber drivers.
_red 10y ago
Yes Minister. Unlike most legislation, which is perfectly readable and not overwhelmed by legalese and corporate-funded loopholes.
ballenf 10y ago
There is a high degree of irony casting aspersions against a contract by calling it gibberish while citing specific clauses to back up the accusation (if it were truly gibberish, wouldn't the complaint be 'the contract could mean anything, it's unclear.' Not: 'these 3 clauses are problematic because of ...'. The specific complaints were exceptions taken with very clear aspects of the contract, not vague terms difficult to decipher. If common law still rules English law, vague terms would be interpreted against the drafter. I would guess that the contracts are crystal clear. Better critical terms could be: * one-sided / imbalanced * onerous * too long, too specific, too technical The complaints against the moveroo contract with regard to challenging your independent status are a different issue.
- heisenbit 10y ago
  Well, the contract uses clear terms like "Customer" but where on earth is a customer roped into such a thicket of demands, encouragement etc.? Customer is king so the saying goes but here the "Customer" is the driver and that "Customer" gets a lot of rules dictated. Customers in the real world pay. "Customers" of Uber get payed. It is not that the language is vague. It is double plus good.
mankash666 10y ago
Convenient for the government to crib about lost payroll taxes and their inability to regulate Uber. What studies have been done on how may jobs are created and $ injected into economy because of Uber/gig-companies?
kwhitefoot 10y ago
I think it would be helpful in this sort of conversation if everyone made it clear whether they were discussing US or UK practice (or French, or German, etc.). It's very confusing to read what seems like a well reasoned comment and then find a few comments further on that none of it applied because the legal system in question was the wrong one.

81 points by davidgerard 10y ago

I suspect most contracts are gibberish - the only ones anyone really looks at in detail are the ones where there is a dispute and that's a tiny percentage. Ask a litigator what they think about the people who drafted the contracts and they generally aren't particularly kind. Edit: I wasn't meaning employment contracts which are special cases, like consumer contracts.

reallydontask 10y ago
Not sure where you are based nor what your line of business is so it's hard to say whether your speaking in general terms or based on experience. I've never signed a gibberish contract of employment. This is not to say that I was happy with all the clauses but they all were sensible and, to my limited knowledge, legal.
mattmanser 10y ago
I've read all my past employment contracts and all of them have been readable and understandable (UK). I've even gone back and challenged points before and got some removed or, for example, been given a waiver allowing me to run a company in my spare time (as the contract said you couldn't unless you had asked). I realise I have much higher reading comprehension than most people, and have more bargaining power than a Deliveroo rider, but I find it crazy someone wouldn't read their own employment contract from start to end.
- arethuza 10y ago
  Actually, on the subject of employment contracts (which I wasn't talking about originally) I've had to resort to multiple lawyers who gave conflicting advice on seemingly innocent and clearly written parts of a contract I had. The experienced lawyer who realised what trick a particular clause was trying to pull saved me quite a chunk of cash!
  - biot 10y ago
    What was the trick?
    - arethuza 10y ago
      I can't remember the details - was over 2 years ago. But I was on 6 months notice and I was leaving for my current job and I (i.e. my lawyer) negotiated getting 3 months pay out of them and it was something to do with the tax on that lump sum - either they would have had to pay or I would. They wanted me to sign a severance agreement under pressure and I handed it across to the lawyer and he did a splendid job of negotiating away all the silly terms and got them to pay his legal fee (which is actually pretty common in the UK).
- scaryclam 10y ago
  I'm in the same boat here. Heck, I make it clear that I won't even hand in my notice until I'm happy with the contract and it's signed. If a prospective employer won't allow contractual changes or clarify parts of the contract that are too broad, run away.
  - Ensorceled 10y ago
    .. and if they say something like "oh, don't worry, our VC lawyers just wanted that clause, we would NEVER enforce that", run very fast.
kasey_junk 10y ago
For employment contracts? I was under the impression it was in everybody's best interest to make those very clear (at least in the US) as their enforceability depended on it. I've certainly read every employment agreement I've ever signed & never encountered an unclear one.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  What sort of things do employment contracts say in the US? I live in the US and I've had 9 jobs in my life (none startups) and the only thing I've ever signed or been asked to sign was a note saying I'm employed "at will" and NDAs.
  - Symbiote 10y ago
    This is from mine in the UK, but I'd guess the non "at will" states would be similar? "You will normally be required to work a five-day week of 41 hours gross, Monday to Friday, including meal breaks." "The annual leave entitlement for full time staff is as follows: on appointment: 30 days ... You are encouraged to take the full annual leave allowance to which you are entitled." "You may be allowed sick absence on full pay, less any social security benefit received for up to six months in any 12 months and after that, on half pay, up to a maximum of 12 months sick absence in any period of 4 years or less." "Should you wish to leave the organisation you will be expected to give 4 weeks notice in writing to your line manager." "Travel, Subsistence and Other Expense: If you are required to be absent from your normal place of work on the business of [company], travelling expenses and subsistence allowances will be paid in accordance with the regulations set out in Travel Manual." The contract is 7 pages long, but with big line spacing and only 1 or 2 sentences in each clause. It covers salary, benefits (leave, sick pay etc), notice periods, the pension scheme, expected conduct, the complaints procedure, and lists the trade unions that had representation (it's from a public sector organisation). In comparison, the Uber one is 16 pages of dense text with lots of legal terms and a glossary.
    - arethuza 10y ago
      My first job contract ~30 years ago was from a UK university and was less than 1 page, basically said that I would get paid X, report to Prof Y and I'd have <huge number> of holidays and that it would be nice if I turned up occasionally.
pluma 10y ago
I'm confused by the responses about employment contracts because I literally can't think of Uber's contracts as employment contracts. The entire purpose of those contracts is to identify drivers as _not employees_. It's much more like an EULA or TOS, which are almost always complete gibberish that doesn't hold up in court indeed (at least in EU courts that is).

Symbiote 10y ago

The actual Uber [Contract] is found on the [Evidence] page of the most recent work and pensions committee [report]. There are Amazon and Deliveroo contracts too. [Contract] http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/work-and-pensions/Written_Evidence/Uber-BV-Driver-Services-Agreement-20-10-2015.pdf http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/work-a... [Evidence] http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/work-and-pensions-committee/inquiries/parliament-2015/self-employment-gig-economy-16-17/publications/ http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/... [Report] http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/work-and-pensions-committee/news-parliament-2015/gig-economy-evidence-published-16-17/ http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/...

zelos 10y ago

"[An Uber] spokesperson said: “Almost all taxi and private hire drivers in the UK are self-employed"" Is that true? Most taxis I see in an area are from 2-3 large local companies: are they employing drivers on a similar basis to Uber? It seems like a pretty simple thing for the Guardian to fact check.

pessimizer 10y ago
Journalists only fact check things the impressions given political statements now, on a 1-5 scale of truthiness.
dspillett 10y ago
A lot of taxi drivers are essentially self employed and working under franchise, or similar arrangements, IIRC. I don't know for sure (in other words: rampant speculation follows!) but I expect it is a way for the taxi firm to dodge various responsibilities regarding health & safety, insurance, tax, and so forth, by passing them on to the "self employed" driver.
- Declanomous 10y ago
  I don't know how it works in England, which could very well have substantially different labor laws, but in many major cities in the US the cabbies either rent the vehicle or rent the taxi medallion from the cab company. It's kind of like how the sometimes people who deliver newspapers technically buy those newspapers from the newspaper and then collect the delivery fee.
- notahacker 10y ago
  I suspect it's mostly about flexibility: the firm doesnt have to worry about balancing driver availability (either complying with labour laws or not having them available at peak times) because they get paid exclusively in fares so will be available every hour that's humanly possible. As I understand it my local firm's drivers pay a weekly fee for use of car and dispatch service, and take the fees, so aren't in a very different situation from Uber drivers.

_red 10y ago

Yes Minister. Unlike most legislation, which is perfectly readable and not overwhelmed by legalese and corporate-funded loopholes.

ballenf 10y ago

There is a high degree of irony casting aspersions against a contract by calling it gibberish while citing specific clauses to back up the accusation (if it were truly gibberish, wouldn't the complaint be 'the contract could mean anything, it's unclear.' Not: 'these 3 clauses are problematic because of ...'. The specific complaints were exceptions taken with very clear aspects of the contract, not vague terms difficult to decipher. If common law still rules English law, vague terms would be interpreted against the drafter. I would guess that the contracts are crystal clear. Better critical terms could be: * one-sided / imbalanced * onerous * too long, too specific, too technical The complaints against the moveroo contract with regard to challenging your independent status are a different issue.

heisenbit 10y ago
Well, the contract uses clear terms like "Customer" but where on earth is a customer roped into such a thicket of demands, encouragement etc.? Customer is king so the saying goes but here the "Customer" is the driver and that "Customer" gets a lot of rules dictated. Customers in the real world pay. "Customers" of Uber get payed. It is not that the language is vague. It is double plus good.

mankash666 10y ago

Convenient for the government to crib about lost payroll taxes and their inability to regulate Uber. What studies have been done on how may jobs are created and $ injected into economy because of Uber/gig-companies?

kwhitefoot 10y ago

I think it would be helpful in this sort of conversation if everyone made it clear whether they were discussing US or UK practice (or French, or German, etc.). It's very confusing to read what seems like a well reasoned comment and then find a few comments further on that none of it applied because the legal system in question was the wrong one.