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Have you ever tried to sell a diamond?
- drcode 16y agonote that this article is from the 1980s, not recent (though still accurate)
- w00pla 16y agoYeah. The article should maybe deal in depth with the start of De Beers. De Beers was basically formed by an English colonialist (Cecil John Rhodes). He controlled a company which basically owned a country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_South_Africa_Company http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_South_Africa_Company). He also had his own private army and tried to overthrow a sovereign government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jameson_Raid http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jameson_Raid).
- cromulent 16y agoRhodesia was named for him. He also set up the Rhodes Scholarship, which enabled people like Bill Clinton and Bob Hawke to go to Oxford.
- bcaulf 16y agoAnd the goal of Rhodes in establishing these scholarships for elite students to study in Britain was to establish a global British empire, including "the ultimate recovery of the United States of America as an integral part of the British Empire." (from Rhodes' will) I don't go looking for conspiracy theories but the Rhodes Scholarship is hard to ignore.
- w00pla 16y agoJust because he set up a scholarship in his name doesn't make the things he did any better. One of the aims of the Rhodes scholarship is Anglicization. A person who did not study in English cannot apply (even though he is fluent). Until recently they also excluded women. In any cases, the legacy of Rhodes is despicable - even if he left behind a scholarship program. His creation of the state of Zimbabwe (with two different ethnic groups) results in problems to this day.
- cromulent 16y ago"Just because he set up a scholarship in his name doesn't make the things he did any better." I don't think I was suggesting that it did.
- protomyth 16y agothe end does not justify the means
- stcredzero 16y agoThe value in this article is not in its particular facts. The real value comes from realizing that such corporate societal manipulation happens all the time to this day.
- jrockway 16y agoThat's what makes this article a classic. You could change the date to today's, and nothing would seem out of place.
- hngryhppos 16y agoMost of the article talks about stuff dating way-prior to 1982. And the economics described still apply today.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- jpablo 16y agoPrevious discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1110283 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1110283
- jleader 16y agoThis article appears to be an excerpt from a longer book on the subject: Epstein, Edward Jay (1982). "THE DIAMOND INVENTION" The author has a website, http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/diamond/prologue.htm http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/diamond/prologue.htm with what appears to be the complete contents of the book. I don't know if he's updated it since 1982.
- pbiggar 16y agoEpic book, worth a read if anyone enjoyed the article.
- jackfoxy 16y agoInteresting, but too long for me to read right now. Does anyone know why De Beers seems to be exempt from U.S. anti-trust laws?
- dmm 16y agoThey aren't a US company.
- gojomo 16y agoThey operate in the US; they are subject to US law.
- anamax 16y agoTheir US operations are subject to US law. They can stay off-shore, sell diamonds to US companies, and ship them in. Unless the US govt is willing to stop US companies from buying or confiscates the shipments or tha payments, there's not much that the US govt can do.
- gojomo 16y agoThere's a longstanding case still bouncing around the court system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Beers_Diamonds_Antitrust_Litigation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Beers_Diamonds_Antitrust_Lit...
- illumin8 16y ago"The settlement provides $295 million to purchasers of diamonds and diamond jewelry, including $130 million to consumers." Does anyone think it seems like a very low number? Just $130 million for consumers, considering the cartel has been operating for decades and brought in billions?
- gojomo 16y agoSounds low to me. And the agreement not to monopolize sounds flimsy. But I'm sure the class action legal firms did just fine.
- erlanger 16y agoPop history of the diamond trade.
- ortusdux 16y agoFun fact: If you get a diamond nice and hot (blow torches work great) and then drop it into some pure oxygen, it will burn like the hunk of charcoal it is.
- paulgerhardt 16y agoRelevant article on the synthetic diamond trade from Wired last year: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/diamond.html http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/diamond.html edit: oops I mean 2003; 11.09 was the issue number
- steve19 16y agoDoes anybody know where I could buy a synthetic clear diamond?
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- weeksie 16y agoDon't bother they're about as expensive as natural clear diamonds.
- pbiggar 16y agoThey don't come any larger than 0.3 karats, which is too small for a solitaire. You can't get them to match either, which makes them bad for side stones. I tried. A good alternative is Canadian diamonds, which are not owned by DeBeers, not mined or polished by slaves, and not the cause of any conflict. That solves about half the problems with diamonds. Get them from Brilliant Earth (I'm not employed there, just a very satisfied customer.)
- steve19 16y agothanks for the tip.
- adamsmith 16y agoThough one could argue that by buying a 'clean' diamond you are increasing the prices for dirty ones. Not that that makes it immoral to do so. I wouldn't go that far.
- Rod 16y agoLifeGem sells synthetic diamonds in the .20 to .99 carat range. Either your claim is wrong, or LifeGem are crooks,
- steve19 16y agoMy favorite quote from the article ... "Watts found that the diamond had mysteriously shrunk in weight to 1.04 carats. One of the jewelers had apparently switched diamonds during the appraisal"
- 10ren 16y agode beers + venter + toxo = bacteria designed to modify your buying behaviour.
- raintrees 16y agoSingle page version: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/print/1982/02/have-you-ever-tried-to-sell-a-diamond/4575/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/print/1982/02/have-you-e...
- sliverstorm 16y agoUnfortunately, realizing this is not enough. You need your partner to realize it too, or you're out of luck. Good luck presenting a ring of ruby or sapphire; even though they are far prettier stones IMHO, every girl I've met has diamonds stamped into her heart.
- philwelch 16y agoThis was an eye opening experience for me as a younger nerd, something that taught me how truly irrational many humans are. Diamonds are clearly pretty, but buying them props up a cartel and indirectly leads to warfare, enslavement, and death. Clearly a young woman would happily understand why I would have ethical objections to this... ...and to this day, I don't understand how some people's minds even work. (It was a hypothetical discussion and my life wasn't appreciably derailed by this conversation, it's just memorable to me because of the utter incomprehension I felt.)
- steve19 16y agoIt also of course, provides legitimate employment to a lot of people throughout Africa. If people stopped buying diamonds, it would be a disaster for the continent. Saying that, I still would hate to buy something that may have been mined by a slave and purchased by a cartel.
- gwern 16y ago> It also of course, provides legitimate employment to a lot of people throughout Africa. It's only 'legitimate' and productive because people like them so much; if people stopped liking them so much, then such employment ceases to be legitimate and becomes on par with being paid to dig a ditch and then fill it right back up.
- philwelch 16y agoIf you want to look at the bigger systemic effects, they are these: Africa's very richness in easily exploitable natural resources is exactly the reason there is so much warfare and violence. There's really no gain to capture economic centers in developed parts of the world, because they do things like finance or entrepreneurship or software which are actually dependent on a stable settled population in a consistent legal system. That's why despite all the gangsters in LA, they just sell drugs instead of taking over Hollywood by force and trying to profit from the film industry. Even when gangsters take something over in this country, it's through infiltration rather than mounting a physical invasion of the city. African gangsters (better known as "rebels", "paramilitary groups", etc.), on the other hand, can actually take over a diamond mine or something and collect all of the income relatively quickly. Crush the demand for diamonds, and the diamond-rich parts of Africa become that much more stable just because they'll have to work harder to generate wealth. And then, maybe, it won't be worthwhile for the paramilitaries and rebels to attack it.
- noonespecial 16y agoIts been a fantastic fad while it lasts (lasted?) but in the end its always just been "Vans off the wall" for "big people". I wonder what we'll use next. I've always wanted to give my wife a ring with a bit of a meteorite set in it because, hey, its from outer space. Where does one find such things?
- Dove 16y agoThese guys were able to procure some to make dice. You might start by sending them a note and/or following up on the source they mention. http://crystalcaste.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CC&Product_Code=02152S&Category_Code=XS http://crystalcaste.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Sto...
- nitrogen 16y agoThe banner at the top of the site boasts about winning a lawsuit to prevent someone else (Hasbro) from creating similarly-shaped dice, but the shapes look like they would have ancient origins. Not exactly my kind of company.
- Dove 16y agoHeh. Well, I'm not suggesting he work for them. Just that they may know something about how to procure meteorites. To by knowledge, it's not a big company, so they might be friendly.
- Luc 16y agoThey sell them by the kg on eBay. Any jewel maker has the tools to cut a nice piece into the right shape for a ring.
- pbiggar 16y agoA few years ago, my girlfriend and I had an argument about this article and the book it came from. I flat refused to buy diamonds, and obviously she wanted a beautiful engagement ring. The compromise we came to was that if it wasn't a diamond, then it better be fucking amazing, preferably with a yellow saffire. Long story short, I'm currently on my honeymoon, and her yellow saffire ring blows everyone away. If your girlfriend turns you down for lack of a diamond, you have probably chosen poorly. However, she might (reasonably) turn you down if she's dissappointed, so make your feelings known long in advance, or you might be in trouble. Get your rings at Brilliant Earth in SF (I did my shopping online, and was not dissappointed). They are the only ethical jewelers I've found, and I looked hard. My wife's ring has a large yellow saffire (fair trade from Sri Lanka, mined from shallow mines with a low environmental impact), small diamonds from Canada (sadly lab diamonds are not good enough for jewelry yet), and recycled gold. The ring is pretty unique, and utterly amazing, and I would recommend this route for any ethically minded person.
- callmeed 16y agoHow bout a pic?
- pbiggar 16y agoBest I can do on the phone right now: http://i.imgur.com/Gj0dp.jpg http://i.imgur.com/Gj0dp.jpg
- Corrado 16y agoWait! That's a picture from a cell phone? Man, my cell phone cameras (iPhone 2G, Palm Pre) are really behind the times. Wait! You're browsing Hacker News on your honeymoon?!
- perokreco 16y agoIf you are looking for a good camera, traditional phone manufacturers(Nokia, SE) are a much better choice. My several years old Nokia has a 5mpx with a real flash and autofocus.
- jacquesm 16y agoSpending insane amounts of money on a clump of carbon molecules to declare your love seems to me extremely wasteful. If your s.o. really needs a display of conspicuous consumption over spending your - now joint - funds carefully and wisely you might want to talk it over. Easy come easy go, if you have money left over to throw it out more power to you but most people are not in a position to throw away money like this. Congratulations to the DeBeers marketing department, they've done an excellent job of making people believe this sort of stuff is needed.
- derefr 16y agoYour point certainly sounds reasonable, but it's not how the human mind works. The point of conspicuous consumption is to make believe that the man is "in a position to throw away money like this", because that (imaginary) man is considered to be a good provider/sexually attractive. Talking about it beforehand would be like telling your kids you were going to dress up as Santa Claus to put presents under the tree—the reality is no different, but the fantasy is ruined. And DeBeers certainly didn't create the notion of conspicuous consumption as a romantic gesture—women have been receiving silver and gold trinkets for millennia, especially ones adorned with various gemstones. DeBeers just popularized diamonds as the gem to be specifically associated with such gestures—and they're a fairly effective/obvious one, too, since they're eye-catching, distinctive, and easy to adorn oneself with.
- stbal 16y agoI'm amazed in general at the amount of conformity in people surrounding the whole topic of weddings. Not just the ring (btw, diamond rings for engagement is an American cultural thing as far as I know, in Europe the props are different), but the whole dress code and the mandatory steps involved in the event. Wasn't the future supposed to free us from such conventions? I find it funny especially with people who laugh at religious functions as superstition, and then they embrace a totally arbitrary set of made up rules.
- henrikschroder 16y agoWell, rites are important to us as social beings, and we make them elaborate and heavy with tradition so they feel more important. We've always had them, regardless of religion. There's always a need to mark the occasions of births, adulthood, partnership and death. Add a bit of capitalist profit-hunger, and you end up with companies doing everything they can to maximize the money people spend on the rites, by manipulating the cultural expectations.
- Lendal 16y agoHave you ever tried to convince a woman of this truth about diamonds?
- lutorm 16y agoMy fiancee and I had this discussion too. In the end, we decided to forego engagement rings all together and just go with a nice set of tungsten carbide wedding bands.
- Jeema3000 16y agoIf it were the other way around: if women had to buy something in order to gain a man's affection and commitment, it would be considered a servile and sexist tradition. Yet somehow the tradition of men buying expensive engagement rings for women survives. I say the heck with that. If she gets an expensive ring, then I want an expensive ring too. Equal rights! :)
- jedberg 16y agoI bought her a ring and then she bought me a TV and surround sound system. I get a hot tub later. Then we'll be about even. :)
- Chirael 16y agoThis link should have had (1982) after the title. Read the whole article only to be very disappointed that it only covered up to 1982 - wtf?
- rman666 16y agoI'm worried it'd fly up my nose! Oh, "sell," not "smell!" My mistake.
- anxiousape 16y agoThere are some things you don't learn in college... like the truth about these pieces of carbon
- w33dkid 16y agoNever even seen one, and I dont get i why diamonds and gold are given so much value. Its true if someone said... the market is driven by women.
- CulturalNgineer 16y agoThe lesson here is how co-ordinated messaging (propaganda) can continually shape and re-shape broad cultural memes no matter how stupid the memes are. While in the case of diamonds it's a matter of wasting money, encouraging inane consumerism and odious environmental practices for the sake of a few wealthy oligarchs... When the same thing happens in politics... It encourages meaningless consumerism and odious environmental practices for the sake of a few wealthy oligarchs. The Lesson: Distrust messages from oligarchs.