7 ms·

I guess in 10-20 years we will be telling our grandchildren about the old days, where you can do whatever you want on your computer, limited only the abilities

by ysavir 10y ago

I guess in 10-20 years we will be telling our grandchildren about the old days, where you can do whatever you want on your computer, limited only the abilities of the hardware* . And they won't believe us. *Simplification, of course.

kminehart 10y ago
No one has to put up with this though. Use free software and gain control over your computer again.
- ysavir 10y ago
  Yes, I believe that these alternatives will always be available. But it has also been made apparent that the larger part of the consumer base is not interested in the alternatives; they are interested in the mainstream. And the mainstream will always bend in its own favor.
- ocdtrekkie 10y ago
  You still have control over your computer in this case, just not their distribution service. You can even install Nesbox's UWP app, if you want, without using the Windows Store, as UWP is not actually a locked down system.
- Dylan16807 10y ago
  For the computers that are capable of running free software, sure...
- hyperhopper 10y ago
  Its easy to say that, but look at the actual hardware requirements[1] for running an open and free system. You can count your options on your fingers.. [1] https://libreboot.org/docs/hardware/#supported_laptops_x86intel https://libreboot.org/docs/hardware/#supported_laptops_x86in...
najati83 10y ago
I don't blame Microsoft, as they are supposed to curate their app store and therefore could be found liable of... whatever crime it is to emulate an old system. You can still run any emulator on Windows 10, you just cannot download it from their app store.
hacker_9 10y ago
It's not like MS don't know they are locking down the console, they've been doing it since the beginning.
TelmoMenezes 10y ago
Not sure why the parent is being downvoted. Perhaps people don't like the read the truth, perhaps they are too young to remember a time of more computational freedom and openness. The majority of "computers" people own are already locked down, and it seems clear that things will only get worse -- hardware is increasingly opaque and designed to do things against the interest of the user (or, to say the least, without the consent of the user).
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- csydas 10y ago
  I would wager that more than likely it's because it's a fairly insubstantial sarcastic post, and quite a few posters on HN prefer that posts have content that drive the discussion related to the topic as opposed to comments like the parent. From my point of view, the parent is somewhat incorrect in that we've always had companies trying really hard to lock down what we can and cannot do - since the NES/SNES days Nintendo was doing copy protection and restriction of their hardware, I believe the other players at the time did as well. Your comment is much more substantial in that it provides a point of discussion, despite the somewhat condescending "...perhaps they are too young to remember..." part. But ultimately entirely rhetorical comments usually are disapproved of, even if the consensus is that the idea behind it is agreed upon.
  - ysavir 10y ago
    > I would wager that more than likely it's because it's a fairly insubstantial sarcastic post, and quite a few posters on HN prefer that posts have content that drive the discussion related to the topic as opposed to comments like the parent. Perhaps the content of my post was implicit rather than explicit, and I would not harbor a grudge against anyone that downvoted out of a preference for the latter, but my comment was neither sarcastic nor rhetorical.
- pmarreck 10y ago
  It's getting downvoted because there will always be open source OS'es that can run open-source emulators. Since all computers are also Turing machines. Dystopian reasoning in the 2 parent comments is slippery-slope fallacy.
thegeomaster 10y ago
Your comment reminds me of this dystopian essay, written by Richard Stallman 20 years ago: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html
- petters 10y ago
  I just read that; it is even too optimistic in some cases: "Ten percent of those fees went to the researchers who wrote the papers"
vlan0 10y ago
This really only affects distribution through the Windows Store, correct? I don't anything saying the execution of console emulation software is now impossible on Windows 10. While it is possible this is a slippery slope that leads to the case you are referring to. It's still not clear if it will ever reach that state.
- izacus 10y ago
  Until of course they disable installation from other sources than Windows Store in name of "malware protection and security". Boiling frogs and all that.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    I doubt they'll attempt to disable execution of web content based on some "this is probably an emulator" heuristic. On the one hand, that'd instantly be circumvented into negligibility; on the other, the backlash would be epic. I also severely doubt they'll attempt to prevent installation of application binaries from sources other than the Windows store. If anyone were going to be dumb enough to attempt such a move, it'd have been Apple, years before now, and they never even came close. Microsoft isn't run by morons, either.
    - the8472 10y ago
      Webcontent is not a free platform. It does not even give you sockets which can interact with arbitrary network services without centralized control (no, websockets don't work because they can't listen, webrtc does not work because it needs rendezvous servers). And neither can it access your own filesystem. It is quite locked down. In a way you get compute cycles, but you don't get access to the machine's full capabilities. And they could trivially forbid loading file:// URLs or disable features for those since few people use those anyway, that way you would lose persistence and would be dependent on something to even host your software.
      - throwanem 10y ago
Waterluvian 10y ago
I don't follow. There's a store now that sells a subset of software. All other methods still exist. You can still do as you please, including installing another OS. Am I missing the part where they're taking away anything that was possible before?
- ysavir 10y ago
  Would I be wrong in assuming that you have a technical background, and are not representative of the average computer user? The current problem* is not that there is absolutely no way to manage your own computer whatsoever, it's that the methods for doing so are becoming more and more a niche only for the computer-savvy. The larger public is becoming increasingly more comfortable with, and encouraging of, closed systems. So long as the majority are willing to pay for such systems, it is not irrational to envision manufacturers eliminating other options over time. *And keep in mind that I wasn't criticizing the present but, but a possible future 10-20 years from now.
  - Waterluvian 10y ago
    So to put it simply, you believe that Microsoft is funnelling people into a very specific, controlled environment. And the only people who leap out of the funnel and roll their own computer environment are those who already know better. So 10 year old me may not have accidentally come across all the "hacker" (to quote my child self) stuff in my computer. Yes I can appreciate that concern.
- goodplay 10y ago
  >All other methods still exist. Still is the operative word. When people complained about UEFI preventing people from running their OS of choice, Microsoft mandated that x86 OEMs make it possible for users to unlock their systems. Fast forward to today, microsoft no longer mandates user control on x86-based systems. It's a slippery slope I'd rather not ride.
Quequau 10y ago
This is something that Richard Stallman and Cory Doctorow have been warning about for some time now... The war against general purpose computing.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
lettergram 10y ago
I don't know... I use Linux and have successfully transitioned some family to free alternatives. I think what really needs to happen is someone develops and packages a Linux distribution as solid and as easy to install as windows. Honestly, it's nearly there and all it'll take is a few dedicated engineers creating a solid updating mechanic.

by ysavir 10y ago

kminehart 10y ago

No one has to put up with this though. Use free software and gain control over your computer again.

ysavir 10y ago
Yes, I believe that these alternatives will always be available. But it has also been made apparent that the larger part of the consumer base is not interested in the alternatives; they are interested in the mainstream. And the mainstream will always bend in its own favor.
ocdtrekkie 10y ago
You still have control over your computer in this case, just not their distribution service. You can even install Nesbox's UWP app, if you want, without using the Windows Store, as UWP is not actually a locked down system.
Dylan16807 10y ago
For the computers that are capable of running free software, sure...
hyperhopper 10y ago
Its easy to say that, but look at the actual hardware requirements[1] for running an open and free system. You can count your options on your fingers.. [1] https://libreboot.org/docs/hardware/#supported_laptops_x86intel https://libreboot.org/docs/hardware/#supported_laptops_x86in...

najati83 10y ago

I don't blame Microsoft, as they are supposed to curate their app store and therefore could be found liable of... whatever crime it is to emulate an old system. You can still run any emulator on Windows 10, you just cannot download it from their app store.

hacker_9 10y ago

It's not like MS don't know they are locking down the console, they've been doing it since the beginning.

TelmoMenezes 10y ago

Not sure why the parent is being downvoted. Perhaps people don't like the read the truth, perhaps they are too young to remember a time of more computational freedom and openness. The majority of "computers" people own are already locked down, and it seems clear that things will only get worse -- hardware is increasingly opaque and designed to do things against the interest of the user (or, to say the least, without the consent of the user).

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
csydas 10y ago
I would wager that more than likely it's because it's a fairly insubstantial sarcastic post, and quite a few posters on HN prefer that posts have content that drive the discussion related to the topic as opposed to comments like the parent. From my point of view, the parent is somewhat incorrect in that we've always had companies trying really hard to lock down what we can and cannot do - since the NES/SNES days Nintendo was doing copy protection and restriction of their hardware, I believe the other players at the time did as well. Your comment is much more substantial in that it provides a point of discussion, despite the somewhat condescending "...perhaps they are too young to remember..." part. But ultimately entirely rhetorical comments usually are disapproved of, even if the consensus is that the idea behind it is agreed upon.
- ysavir 10y ago
  > I would wager that more than likely it's because it's a fairly insubstantial sarcastic post, and quite a few posters on HN prefer that posts have content that drive the discussion related to the topic as opposed to comments like the parent. Perhaps the content of my post was implicit rather than explicit, and I would not harbor a grudge against anyone that downvoted out of a preference for the latter, but my comment was neither sarcastic nor rhetorical.
pmarreck 10y ago
It's getting downvoted because there will always be open source OS'es that can run open-source emulators. Since all computers are also Turing machines. Dystopian reasoning in the 2 parent comments is slippery-slope fallacy.

thegeomaster 10y ago

Your comment reminds me of this dystopian essay, written by Richard Stallman 20 years ago: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html

petters 10y ago
I just read that; it is even too optimistic in some cases: "Ten percent of those fees went to the researchers who wrote the papers"

vlan0 10y ago

This really only affects distribution through the Windows Store, correct? I don't anything saying the execution of console emulation software is now impossible on Windows 10. While it is possible this is a slippery slope that leads to the case you are referring to. It's still not clear if it will ever reach that state.

izacus 10y ago
Until of course they disable installation from other sources than Windows Store in name of "malware protection and security". Boiling frogs and all that.
- throwanem 10y ago
  I doubt they'll attempt to disable execution of web content based on some "this is probably an emulator" heuristic. On the one hand, that'd instantly be circumvented into negligibility; on the other, the backlash would be epic. I also severely doubt they'll attempt to prevent installation of application binaries from sources other than the Windows store. If anyone were going to be dumb enough to attempt such a move, it'd have been Apple, years before now, and they never even came close. Microsoft isn't run by morons, either.
  - the8472 10y ago
    Webcontent is not a free platform. It does not even give you sockets which can interact with arbitrary network services without centralized control (no, websockets don't work because they can't listen, webrtc does not work because it needs rendezvous servers). And neither can it access your own filesystem. It is quite locked down. In a way you get compute cycles, but you don't get access to the machine's full capabilities. And they could trivially forbid loading file:// URLs or disable features for those since few people use those anyway, that way you would lose persistence and would be dependent on something to even host your software.
    - throwanem 10y ago

Waterluvian 10y ago

I don't follow. There's a store now that sells a subset of software. All other methods still exist. You can still do as you please, including installing another OS. Am I missing the part where they're taking away anything that was possible before?

ysavir 10y ago
Would I be wrong in assuming that you have a technical background, and are not representative of the average computer user? The current problem* is not that there is absolutely no way to manage your own computer whatsoever, it's that the methods for doing so are becoming more and more a niche only for the computer-savvy. The larger public is becoming increasingly more comfortable with, and encouraging of, closed systems. So long as the majority are willing to pay for such systems, it is not irrational to envision manufacturers eliminating other options over time. *And keep in mind that I wasn't criticizing the present but, but a possible future 10-20 years from now.
- Waterluvian 10y ago
  So to put it simply, you believe that Microsoft is funnelling people into a very specific, controlled environment. And the only people who leap out of the funnel and roll their own computer environment are those who already know better. So 10 year old me may not have accidentally come across all the "hacker" (to quote my child self) stuff in my computer. Yes I can appreciate that concern.
goodplay 10y ago
>All other methods still exist. Still is the operative word. When people complained about UEFI preventing people from running their OS of choice, Microsoft mandated that x86 OEMs make it possible for users to unlock their systems. Fast forward to today, microsoft no longer mandates user control on x86-based systems. It's a slippery slope I'd rather not ride.

Quequau 10y ago

This is something that Richard Stallman and Cory Doctorow have been warning about for some time now... The war against general purpose computing.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

lettergram 10y ago

I don't know... I use Linux and have successfully transitioned some family to free alternatives. I think what really needs to happen is someone develops and packages a Linux distribution as solid and as easy to install as windows. Honestly, it's nearly there and all it'll take is a few dedicated engineers creating a solid updating mechanic.