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Grisak'a response in the article is fairly arrogant particularly with the Musk tweet thrown in. If you sell B2B then, by all means, fire customers, but if you

Grisak'a response in the article is fairly arrogant particularly with the Musk tweet thrown in. If you sell B2B then, by all means, fire customers, but if you sell on Amazon to consumers then you need to deal with them civilly regardless if you feel insulted. I get the feeling a lawyer told him to explicitly state it wasn't about the review because there is a new federal law that protects reviewers. That statement doesn't jive with his previous posts.

obstinate 10y ago
To be fair to Grisak, Musk's "firing" of a customer was also a B2C situation. That being said, there are a number of factors that differ: - Musk had not already sold the individual a car. - Musk was (possibly) responding not to the critical blog post, but to the content of the phone conversation. - It has not been decided yet, but I doubt Garadget will ultimately have the popularity and cachet of Tesla's cars. This, for better or worse, does have an impact on what you can get away with. - All of the above notwithstanding, maybe this was not Elon Musk's finest moment. Not ever word out of his mouth is useful for all purposes. Citing the fact he said something, even if he was in a situation that is perfectly analogous to one's own, does not justify one's comparable action.
- protomyth 10y ago
  I should of separated out those two sentences since just the presence of that tweet was my problem, and I wanted B2B to be a separate point. I've noticed if some CEO quotes Jobs it is generally suspect too. That being said, I do agree with all your points. I tend to think no garage door company is going to have the cachet of any Elon Musk company. Frankly, only Elon Musk could send out that tweet and not get hammered.
- mizzao 10y ago
  Can someone link to the original thing that Musk did?
  - arvin 10y ago
    Elon Musk personally cancels blogger's Tesla order after 'rude' post - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/03/elon-musk-blogger-tesla-motors-model-x https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/03/elon-musk...
tyingq 10y ago
I think it's okay to fire B2C customers, but refund them before you fire them. Even if you suspect they won't return the physical part of the product. And do it with less snark. Just state it seems clear you won't ever see eye to eye, and give the money back.
- gambiting 10y ago
  I think the reaction would have been completely different if the reply was along the lines of "We're sorry to hear that your device does not work. We are issuing a refund immediately to your account - please keep in mind that since the refund was issued, your device won't be able to connect to our network any more. Have a pleasant day, and sorry for the inconvenience". It would have achieved the exact same result, and I am sure the backlash wouldn't be 10% as severe.
  - tyingq 10y ago
    Separating the public and private message might have helped out a bit as well. In this case, I would have tried to help online (in the forum) at least once, despite the rude forum post. If it kept up, I'd have emailed the "we need to part ways, here's a refund" note.
- rlpb 10y ago
  I don't think a refund is necessarily sufficient legally. A customer has a contract with a supplier. That contract doesn't usually say (whether express or implied) that the supplier can arbitrarily terminate the contract with just a refund. So doing so would still be in breach of contract. Legally, the remedy for breach of contract is to make the injured party whole, and that includes consequential damages. The customer may suffer consequential damages in excess of the price paid for the product (eg. "After buying your product I bought a new garage door to suit your product and now I have to get a different one to use with your competitor's product since the next best thing requires a different specification"). Offering a full refund is still entirely appropriate of course; I'm just pointing out that the customer doesn't have to accept that as a final settlement.
kordless 10y ago
> you need to deal with them civilly regardless if you feel insulted I strongly disagree with the assertion all customers can be dealt with "civilly" while still remaining sane. Customer irrationality is widely varied, and sometimes you just need to take matters into Fate's hands to get back to rationality. OTOH, it's not something you want to do regularly, with the customers that is.
- mfukar 10y ago
  So now the business is Fate. Got it.
- onion2k 10y ago
  I strongly disagree with the assertion all customers can be dealt with "civilly" while still remaining sane. What you see as "customer irrationality" is, in 99.9% of cases, actually a user experience problem that could have been addressed with better design and better testing before the customer ever bought the product. For that remaining 0.1%, the appropriate course of action is not to deal with people poorly and treat your customers badly, but to offload your customer services to someone else who is more patient and more capable.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    Yes and no. Basically if you open a customer support phone line for anything mass-market-facing, you'll regularly encounter people who are utterly clueless but feel entitled, people who are assholes, and people who want to defraud you. Some customers are really problem people, and a private company is not a charity in business of teaching people how to live in a civilized society. So it's a reasonable business decision to try and get rid of some of the customers (or risk your support people burning out); the issue is not whether to do it, but how to do it without risking additional damage to your business.
    - kordless 10y ago
      Representing irrational actors is hard. :)
aaron695 10y ago
> then you need to deal with them civilly regardless if you feel insulted. This is bullshit. Part of what makes humans work is the fact we often won't take abuse even though it might make financial sense to let's our selves be abused. You have every right to deal with it civilly, but the few business owers who don't deal with a$$holes are making your life better. No comment on this particular case.
huhtenberg 10y ago
> That statement doesn't jive with his previous posts. Nope, it does. His original post (not posts) pointed at foul language first and foremost, which was then compounded by posting an equally charming Amazon review without making any attempt to wait for a reply. So his follow-up matches the post that led to this whole brouhaha. But let's not allow this ruin all the fun of the vigilante justice and trying to beat the living daylights out this guy.
xname2 10y ago
What do you mean fire customers in B2B? You can terminate service with business customers anytime you want to?
- jo909 10y ago
  Not anytime you want, but anytime the contract allows. The expectation is that a company is much more aware of the risk tied to a contract it enters (f.e. by having it examined by a legal department, requiring the supplier it wants to buy services or goods from to first sign their own contract that lays out some ground rules etc), and is generally much more professional in handling such situations. You would wish that normal consumers also read their contracts carefully and understand them, but in reality they do not. So there is a long list of laws in place to protect them and "level the playing field" between unsuspecting consumers and corporations.
forgottenpass 10y ago
B2B firing customers works because there is (supposedly) a professional on both ends of the transaction evaluating the offer and monitoring the relationship, and often a contract when a party isn't easily replaceable, and/or could get burned by the other. That relationship is severely imbalanced in B2C transactions, and abusing that it is why consumer protection laws exist. Given the widespread acknowledgment of the abusable nature of that relationship, the only reasonable expectation to abusing it that doesn't rise to the level of crime or tort is still loud public disapproval.
tw04 10y ago
I'll be honest (realizing it's not a popular opinion): I find it more than a bit hypocritical that when Musk pulled the same thing, everyone on HN seemed to support Musk. Yet this guy is just a complete jerk... because? I personally think they were both completely in the wrong, but I get where he's coming from. Heck, the guy probably hangs out here and felt like he was in the right given the reaction to Musk's childish stunt.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
philipov 10y ago
A company can't ever fire a customer. An employer fires someone they pay, by no longer paying them. A company is payed by its clients, and so it is the clients that get to fire the company when it under-performs, by no longer paying for its services. A company can quit its clients by refusing to take more money from them, but to speak of firing customers is an abusive cognitive power play.
- stronglikedan 10y ago
  Sure they can. It's a ubiquitous colloquialism that's used to describe a business relationship that's severed by a vendor. It's not meant to be taken literally.
- harryf 10y ago
  > A company can't ever fire a customer. Why not? > to speak of firing customers is an abusive cognitive power play. The guy responsible for the term "fired" was well known for abusive power plays - http://meta.ath0.com/2015/03/17/etymology-of-youre-fired/ http://meta.ath0.com/2015/03/17/etymology-of-youre-fired/ > Patterson had a way to deal with executives who particularly displeased him. in a previous case, he had the businessman’s desk and chair dragged out onto the lawn, where they were set on fire. Apparently Watson’s desk was similarly dragged out and burned, and the man himself was dismissed. When other employees asked where Watson was, Patterson simply said “Fired.”

obstinate 10y ago

To be fair to Grisak, Musk's "firing" of a customer was also a B2C situation. That being said, there are a number of factors that differ: - Musk had not already sold the individual a car. - Musk was (possibly) responding not to the critical blog post, but to the content of the phone conversation. - It has not been decided yet, but I doubt Garadget will ultimately have the popularity and cachet of Tesla's cars. This, for better or worse, does have an impact on what you can get away with. - All of the above notwithstanding, maybe this was not Elon Musk's finest moment. Not ever word out of his mouth is useful for all purposes. Citing the fact he said something, even if he was in a situation that is perfectly analogous to one's own, does not justify one's comparable action.

protomyth 10y ago
I should of separated out those two sentences since just the presence of that tweet was my problem, and I wanted B2B to be a separate point. I've noticed if some CEO quotes Jobs it is generally suspect too. That being said, I do agree with all your points. I tend to think no garage door company is going to have the cachet of any Elon Musk company. Frankly, only Elon Musk could send out that tweet and not get hammered.
mizzao 10y ago
Can someone link to the original thing that Musk did?
- arvin 10y ago
  Elon Musk personally cancels blogger's Tesla order after 'rude' post - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/03/elon-musk-blogger-tesla-motors-model-x https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/03/elon-musk...

tyingq 10y ago

I think it's okay to fire B2C customers, but refund them before you fire them. Even if you suspect they won't return the physical part of the product. And do it with less snark. Just state it seems clear you won't ever see eye to eye, and give the money back.

gambiting 10y ago
I think the reaction would have been completely different if the reply was along the lines of "We're sorry to hear that your device does not work. We are issuing a refund immediately to your account - please keep in mind that since the refund was issued, your device won't be able to connect to our network any more. Have a pleasant day, and sorry for the inconvenience". It would have achieved the exact same result, and I am sure the backlash wouldn't be 10% as severe.
- tyingq 10y ago
  Separating the public and private message might have helped out a bit as well. In this case, I would have tried to help online (in the forum) at least once, despite the rude forum post. If it kept up, I'd have emailed the "we need to part ways, here's a refund" note.
rlpb 10y ago
I don't think a refund is necessarily sufficient legally. A customer has a contract with a supplier. That contract doesn't usually say (whether express or implied) that the supplier can arbitrarily terminate the contract with just a refund. So doing so would still be in breach of contract. Legally, the remedy for breach of contract is to make the injured party whole, and that includes consequential damages. The customer may suffer consequential damages in excess of the price paid for the product (eg. "After buying your product I bought a new garage door to suit your product and now I have to get a different one to use with your competitor's product since the next best thing requires a different specification"). Offering a full refund is still entirely appropriate of course; I'm just pointing out that the customer doesn't have to accept that as a final settlement.

kordless 10y ago

> you need to deal with them civilly regardless if you feel insulted I strongly disagree with the assertion all customers can be dealt with "civilly" while still remaining sane. Customer irrationality is widely varied, and sometimes you just need to take matters into Fate's hands to get back to rationality. OTOH, it's not something you want to do regularly, with the customers that is.

mfukar 10y ago
So now the business is Fate. Got it.
onion2k 10y ago
I strongly disagree with the assertion all customers can be dealt with "civilly" while still remaining sane. What you see as "customer irrationality" is, in 99.9% of cases, actually a user experience problem that could have been addressed with better design and better testing before the customer ever bought the product. For that remaining 0.1%, the appropriate course of action is not to deal with people poorly and treat your customers badly, but to offload your customer services to someone else who is more patient and more capable.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  Yes and no. Basically if you open a customer support phone line for anything mass-market-facing, you'll regularly encounter people who are utterly clueless but feel entitled, people who are assholes, and people who want to defraud you. Some customers are really problem people, and a private company is not a charity in business of teaching people how to live in a civilized society. So it's a reasonable business decision to try and get rid of some of the customers (or risk your support people burning out); the issue is not whether to do it, but how to do it without risking additional damage to your business.
  - kordless 10y ago
    Representing irrational actors is hard. :)

aaron695 10y ago

> then you need to deal with them civilly regardless if you feel insulted. This is bullshit. Part of what makes humans work is the fact we often won't take abuse even though it might make financial sense to let's our selves be abused. You have every right to deal with it civilly, but the few business owers who don't deal with a$$holes are making your life better. No comment on this particular case.

huhtenberg 10y ago

> That statement doesn't jive with his previous posts. Nope, it does. His original post (not posts) pointed at foul language first and foremost, which was then compounded by posting an equally charming Amazon review without making any attempt to wait for a reply. So his follow-up matches the post that led to this whole brouhaha. But let's not allow this ruin all the fun of the vigilante justice and trying to beat the living daylights out this guy.

xname2 10y ago

What do you mean fire customers in B2B? You can terminate service with business customers anytime you want to?

jo909 10y ago
Not anytime you want, but anytime the contract allows. The expectation is that a company is much more aware of the risk tied to a contract it enters (f.e. by having it examined by a legal department, requiring the supplier it wants to buy services or goods from to first sign their own contract that lays out some ground rules etc), and is generally much more professional in handling such situations. You would wish that normal consumers also read their contracts carefully and understand them, but in reality they do not. So there is a long list of laws in place to protect them and "level the playing field" between unsuspecting consumers and corporations.

forgottenpass 10y ago

B2B firing customers works because there is (supposedly) a professional on both ends of the transaction evaluating the offer and monitoring the relationship, and often a contract when a party isn't easily replaceable, and/or could get burned by the other. That relationship is severely imbalanced in B2C transactions, and abusing that it is why consumer protection laws exist. Given the widespread acknowledgment of the abusable nature of that relationship, the only reasonable expectation to abusing it that doesn't rise to the level of crime or tort is still loud public disapproval.

tw04 10y ago

I'll be honest (realizing it's not a popular opinion): I find it more than a bit hypocritical that when Musk pulled the same thing, everyone on HN seemed to support Musk. Yet this guy is just a complete jerk... because? I personally think they were both completely in the wrong, but I get where he's coming from. Heck, the guy probably hangs out here and felt like he was in the right given the reaction to Musk's childish stunt.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

philipov 10y ago

A company can't ever fire a customer. An employer fires someone they pay, by no longer paying them. A company is payed by its clients, and so it is the clients that get to fire the company when it under-performs, by no longer paying for its services. A company can quit its clients by refusing to take more money from them, but to speak of firing customers is an abusive cognitive power play.

stronglikedan 10y ago
Sure they can. It's a ubiquitous colloquialism that's used to describe a business relationship that's severed by a vendor. It's not meant to be taken literally.
harryf 10y ago
> A company can't ever fire a customer. Why not? > to speak of firing customers is an abusive cognitive power play. The guy responsible for the term "fired" was well known for abusive power plays - http://meta.ath0.com/2015/03/17/etymology-of-youre-fired/ http://meta.ath0.com/2015/03/17/etymology-of-youre-fired/ > Patterson had a way to deal with executives who particularly displeased him. in a previous case, he had the businessman’s desk and chair dragged out onto the lawn, where they were set on fire. Apparently Watson’s desk was similarly dragged out and burned, and the man himself was dismissed. When other employees asked where Watson was, Patterson simply said “Fired.”