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That's not an incentive for visiting the US as tourist, nor for business. I would expect that from North Korea, and not from "the land of freedom", unless forei

by faragon 10y ago

That's not an incentive for visiting the US as tourist, nor for business. I would expect that from North Korea, and not from "the land of freedom", unless foreigners are not considered human beings anymore there.

sqeaky 10y ago
Phrases like "The Land of Freedom" are some of the best marketing of all time. How well does marketing typically match reality?
- faragon 10y ago
  The US is a country of freedom [1], I have no doubt. And I would like citizens, and residents in general, get as much freedom as possible. I hope it stays free, so everyone could enjoy their people and their cool stuff, for mutual fun and profit :-) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World#Country_rankings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World#Country_r...
  - sqeaky 10y ago
    I agree we are freer than we could be. But the poor are not nearly as free as the rich, the black as free as the white nor the citizens not as free as the corporations. Too bad we don't have as much freedom as our richcorporations.
    - faragon 10y ago
      Sure. There are places like e.g. North Korea where "rich corporations" don't abuse the "poor". In my opinion "rich corporations" are necessary, because Civilization requires economy of scale. And because centralized/planned ("socialist") economy is not flexible, better you learn to deal with "rich corporations" and hope where you live citizens keep their rights while dealing with a complex context.
      - bigbugbag 10y ago
        You lost me when you jumped from "rich corporation are necessary" to "civilization requires economy of scale". There were no rich corporation until very recently in the history of civilizations, this pretty much debunks the part where rich corporations are necessary.
        faragon 10y ago
        Sure, you don't need economy of scale if economy of subsistence is enough for you.
        sqeaky 10y ago
        I think you are artificially connecting the two. I think you can have economy of scale without having rich corporations. There are many kinds of wealth and risk aggregation schemes that are potentially better than giving huge amounts of wealth to a single point of failure.
  - bigbugbag 10y ago
    According to this source the US is as free as brazil, chile, barbados, estonia, hungary, etc. It feels like this is not giving the full pictures. According to the report[1] its aggregate score is 89/100 down from 90 with freedom of press and freedom of internet. Same article says in overview: in recent years the country’s democratic institutions have suffered some erosion, as reflected in legislative gridlock, dysfunction in the criminal justice system, and growing disparities in wealth and economic opportunity. Then reporter without borders tells us the US is 41th on freedom of press: US media freedom, enshrined in the First Amendment to the 1787 constitution, has encountered a major obstacle – the government’s war on whistleblowers who leak information about its surveillance activities, spying and foreign operations, especially those linked to counter-terrorism. Furthermore, US journalists are still not protected by a federal “shield law” guaranteeing their right not to reveal their sources and other confidential work-related information. For internet freedom, the US is on the enemies of the internet list since 2014[3]. US ranking on the Human Freedom Index went steadily from 16th in 2008 to 23th in 2014[4]. On the Democracy Index it got demoted from full democracy to flawed democracy in 2016 before trump got elected[5]. In terms of economic freedom the US right after Qatar and Taïwan and right before Romania[6]. I'd like to see how this supposed freedom would hold if the US wasn't one of the worse if not the worst offender in terms of energy and resources consumption and waste. From the rest of the world the US is free to ruin the world for everybody, free to watch tv, get morbidly obese on junk food and to choose between brand A and brand B. [1]: https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2017/united-states https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2017/united-st... [2]: https://rsf.org/en/united-states https://rsf.org/en/united-states [3]: http://12mars.rsf.org/2014-en/#slide2 http://12mars.rsf.org/2014-en/#slide2 [4]: https://framapic.org/8p2WjK12neKn/LlmHYvBl0Nu3.png https://framapic.org/8p2WjK12neKn/LlmHYvBl0Nu3.png [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World
  - Daishiman 10y ago
    You keep telling yourself that. I've never seen a first world country where so many people are so afraid of cops, the law, the lack of accessibly health care, and the general uncertainty of their future in the labor force.
bigbugbag 10y ago
Having to go through US borders' security is an incentive to never come back either as visitor or for business. Only reason would be family but then it would be preferable if family came to visit instead of going into the mad madness of the fools.

by faragon 10y ago

sqeaky 10y ago

Phrases like "The Land of Freedom" are some of the best marketing of all time. How well does marketing typically match reality?

faragon 10y ago
The US is a country of freedom [1], I have no doubt. And I would like citizens, and residents in general, get as much freedom as possible. I hope it stays free, so everyone could enjoy their people and their cool stuff, for mutual fun and profit :-) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World#Country_rankings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World#Country_r...
- sqeaky 10y ago
  I agree we are freer than we could be. But the poor are not nearly as free as the rich, the black as free as the white nor the citizens not as free as the corporations. Too bad we don't have as much freedom as our richcorporations.
  - faragon 10y ago
    Sure. There are places like e.g. North Korea where "rich corporations" don't abuse the "poor". In my opinion "rich corporations" are necessary, because Civilization requires economy of scale. And because centralized/planned ("socialist") economy is not flexible, better you learn to deal with "rich corporations" and hope where you live citizens keep their rights while dealing with a complex context.
    - bigbugbag 10y ago
      You lost me when you jumped from "rich corporation are necessary" to "civilization requires economy of scale". There were no rich corporation until very recently in the history of civilizations, this pretty much debunks the part where rich corporations are necessary.
      - faragon 10y ago
        Sure, you don't need economy of scale if economy of subsistence is enough for you.
        sqeaky 10y ago
        I think you are artificially connecting the two. I think you can have economy of scale without having rich corporations. There are many kinds of wealth and risk aggregation schemes that are potentially better than giving huge amounts of wealth to a single point of failure.
- bigbugbag 10y ago
  According to this source the US is as free as brazil, chile, barbados, estonia, hungary, etc. It feels like this is not giving the full pictures. According to the report[1] its aggregate score is 89/100 down from 90 with freedom of press and freedom of internet. Same article says in overview: in recent years the country’s democratic institutions have suffered some erosion, as reflected in legislative gridlock, dysfunction in the criminal justice system, and growing disparities in wealth and economic opportunity. Then reporter without borders tells us the US is 41th on freedom of press: US media freedom, enshrined in the First Amendment to the 1787 constitution, has encountered a major obstacle – the government’s war on whistleblowers who leak information about its surveillance activities, spying and foreign operations, especially those linked to counter-terrorism. Furthermore, US journalists are still not protected by a federal “shield law” guaranteeing their right not to reveal their sources and other confidential work-related information. For internet freedom, the US is on the enemies of the internet list since 2014[3]. US ranking on the Human Freedom Index went steadily from 16th in 2008 to 23th in 2014[4]. On the Democracy Index it got demoted from full democracy to flawed democracy in 2016 before trump got elected[5]. In terms of economic freedom the US right after Qatar and Taïwan and right before Romania[6]. I'd like to see how this supposed freedom would hold if the US wasn't one of the worse if not the worst offender in terms of energy and resources consumption and waste. From the rest of the world the US is free to ruin the world for everybody, free to watch tv, get morbidly obese on junk food and to choose between brand A and brand B. [1]: https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2017/united-states https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2017/united-st... [2]: https://rsf.org/en/united-states https://rsf.org/en/united-states [3]: http://12mars.rsf.org/2014-en/#slide2 http://12mars.rsf.org/2014-en/#slide2 [4]: https://framapic.org/8p2WjK12neKn/LlmHYvBl0Nu3.png https://framapic.org/8p2WjK12neKn/LlmHYvBl0Nu3.png [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World
- Daishiman 10y ago
  You keep telling yourself that. I've never seen a first world country where so many people are so afraid of cops, the law, the lack of accessibly health care, and the general uncertainty of their future in the labor force.

bigbugbag 10y ago

Having to go through US borders' security is an incentive to never come back either as visitor or for business. Only reason would be family but then it would be preferable if family came to visit instead of going into the mad madness of the fools.