8 ms·

> it was always a country to keep offshore companies/accounts, so every rich developer in ex-USSR already been there and knew the place, but since 2014 it start

> it was always a country to keep offshore companies/accounts, so every rich developer in ex-USSR already been there and knew the place, but since 2014 it started to make sense to move physically as well I'm sure that has nothing to do with the fact that since 3 years ago Cyprus (among others) 'sells' EU permanent residency permits to rich foreigners. You can imagin that an EU permanent residency permit, allowing you to live and work in all of the EU is worth more than gold for rich people in Putin's Russia, KGB Belarus and war-thorn Ukraine. Let's not pretend Cyprus is an international tech hub for developers and start ups... http://gulfnews.com/business/property/cyprus-property-opens-avenues-to-eu-residency-1.2001249 http://gulfnews.com/business/property/cyprus-property-opens-...

arjie 10y ago
Everyone sells residency and citizenship. The list of desirable countries that don't is probably shorter than the list that do. Latvia, for instance, is much cheaper and gets you into Schengen with an investor visa followed up by investor citizenship.
- stupidcar 10y ago
  Yep. Want to become resident in the UK? Agree to invest £1m and a "Tier 1" visa is yours: https://www.gov.uk/tier-1-investor https://www.gov.uk/tier-1-investor. The US has a similar programme to sell Immigrant Investor Visas: https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/immigrate/Immigrant-Investor-Visas.html https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/immigrate/Immigran....
  - rahimnathwani 10y ago
    2m for a limited time visa. 5m if you want to settle
    - geff82 10y ago
      And I personally there is nothing wrong with being able to buy a visa. Many people in a country don't pay few taxes in their life. So when someone comes and invests a good amount, it is ok to honor this with visa or passport. Would just be cool if every country would allow easier immigration for ordinary people, too.
      - cylinder 10y ago
        No, it's not okay, it reduces citizenship and community to a dollar value, which is just more neoliberalism. It doesn't pay the government anything either - for eb5 investor commonly makes a profit, and only has to employ ten Americans at full time minimum wage (not much tax there). The immigrants income is usually left back home (mainly China) and they don't declare it in the US since it's out of reach of the IRS. Mainly they send the spouse and kids to use top public schools and down the line they get social security and Medicare too. It's a complete scam
        geff82 10y ago
        So you would rather not let them create the 10 jobs (which, compared to many other countries, is quite much)? I mean, they do not only have to "create" them and leave empty, they have to find real working people for them. So even if they were minimum wage, I guess American software architects would not take them. At least in the job market, those "evil" investors have to be somehow competitive (you get what you pay for). And what about those who create a bigger business with bigger salaries? Should they all stay in the home country?
        rahimnathwani 10y ago
        I suspect that there's some potential for abuse under both the UK and US systems, but there are some safeguards: 1) US citizens are taxed on global income forever. (Perhaps it's hard for the IRS to enforce for people whose assets are in countries that don't share information with the US, but it's not impossible.) 2) UK tier-1 investor visa holders must be outside the UK for fewer than 180 days per year, which means they must be in the UK for 185 or 186 days per year, which means they would be subject to tax on their global income during that period. (But of course once they become British Citizens, they could ensure they stay in the UK for fewer than 183 days per year, meaning they'd only pay tax on their local income (which could be zero)).
- fest 10y ago
  In Latvia you either have to buy a property worth more than 250kEUR, invest more than 35kEUR in a business or deposit more than 280k. From my standpoint, the biggest risk is a certain neighbour country with historical appetite for "preserving it's territorial interests".
- hellofunk 10y ago
  I think Singapore gives you permanent resident status just for buying a house there! Of course, buying property in Singapore is no small feat for most people.
  - Muromec 10y ago
    There is always an old trick of setting up a company and hiring yourself as qualified worker, then getting PR status in few years.
    - hellofunk 10y ago
      In Singapore that still requires large capital investment in your company.
ssambros 10y ago
It is relatively easy to get a software engineer job in Germany and couple of years later get a residency, so no, residencies are not the only reason people moved to Cyprus.
- sporkenfang 10y ago
  If a person theoretically spoke French and English but had not yet studied German, would that make such a leap more difficult?
  - captainmuon 10y ago
    From my experience, people get along pretty well in Germany even if they know only English. Especially in large cities like Berlin, where they are likely to get such a job. So many people speak good English here, that it is actually hard to learn German, because the natives don't want to speak German with you :-). I'm in research, and half of my institute here in Berlin are foreigners. Of course, it still helps a lot to learn German - and I think you miss out on a lot if you don't learn the language of a country. Also, you'll need a friend or colleague to help you with administrative stuff in the beginning (which may be in German only).
  - magic_beans 10y ago
    I know about 6 American software engineers who don't speak a lick of German working in Berlin.
  - pizza234 10y ago
    Going through the whoishiring.io job offers, Germany has a comparatively high number of job ads written in German (even for remote positions). This is very interesting, as it may point to a less international work culture (although this is in the process of changing), which this translates to a "possibly yes" answer to your question. Of course, whoishiring.io may not reflect accurately real world, still, I don't think it's random. Answer of the type "N people work here in Germany without speaking german" are not correct answers, since they don't imply a comparison (the question is comparative).
anovikov 10y ago
That is not a EU permanent residency permit. It is just for Cyprus. Cyprus is not even in Schengen, and this permit doesn't even allow free travel, you still need a visa to go even to Greece. It also gives no right to work or do any kind of business (even in Cyprus), i.e. it is against the goals of these people, it is mostly for retirees. A 2-year residence permit which becomes permanent in 5 years is easy to get in any Baltic country, and it is a lot less restricting. That is, if you are too rich to work, but not rich enough to buy a passport. Otherwise you can get a permanent permit in Germany after 2 years of work which will give you full rights similar to U.S. green card, in all of the EU.
- StavrosK 10y ago
  Do you need a visa to go to Greece? Cypriot citizens can definitely travel to Greece with just their ID cards, but I'm not sure about immigrants.
  - anovikov 10y ago
    Of course, because they are EU citizens. All EU citizens can travel freely. But immigrants need a visa since Cyprus is not in Schengen. This is the case with all non-Schengen EU countries, like, immigrants living in London need a visa to go to Paris, but a Romanian doesn't need visa to go to London. An immigrant in a Schengen country can travel to any other Schengen country plus new non-Schengen entrants: Cyprus, Romania, Bulgaria and Croatia. For example, i am an immigrant in Lithuania (Schengen) and i travelled to Cyprus and Romania with no visa (i can't even technically apply for one), plus many Schengen states.
    - 6t6t6t6 10y ago
      This situation is not uncommon. [Reunion Island][0] is a French province, but it is not in Schengen neither. Any European can go to live and work to Reunion Island, but a foreigner with a Schengen Permit cannot. [0]: https://goo.gl/maps/TAJoEYLp7m32 https://goo.gl/maps/TAJoEYLp7m32
    - Y_Y 10y ago
reason_police 10y ago
> I'm sure that has nothing to do with the fact that since 3 years ago Cyprus (among others) 'sells' EU permanent residency permits to rich foreigners. You know, the solution to "problems" like that is to abolish visas altogether. A visa is essentially a permission to exist in a certain geographical area. Why exactly do you need one? Yes I know governments won't let you in/out without one, but what sense does it make? What possible moral justification is there, for preventing you from moving freely when you're not harming anyone else? You've heard of people "misusing" their visas, right? But how crazy is the idea of "misusing" your permission to exist in an area? How crazy is it that visas come with a list of activities you're allowed to engage in? For example, if you're on a tourist visa, you're not allowed to work in exchange for money, nor sell your company's product to someone. You might think it's because governments need to keep track of who owes them taxes and how much, but um.. what sense does that make? Say you were born in England and lived there all your life. Then you fly over to Thailand on a tourist visa, and you fix someone's bicycle in exchange for a small fee. How/why is Thailand's government entitled to a cut of the money you made in doing that? If you believe in the Social Contract, does that get temporarily passed from England to Thailand, for the duration of your stay? Or did you perhaps unwittingly sign a new one with Thailand, by entering their territory? Would sitting on a plane that happens to cross some specific unseen line on a map constitute agreeing to a binding obligation to hand over some of your income to the organization "in charge" of the area you entered? Of course not, but that's what The Rules say. But why/how are we bound by The Rules? Well, we're not. Not in any objective, moral sense at all. But we all obey the rules anyway. Why is that, besides to avoid being punished for disobedience?
- throwanem 10y ago
  Familiarize yourself with Chesterton's fence. It might give you some insight into one of the reasons why your rhetoric finds no traction.
  - reason_police 10y ago
    Nah. I know exactly what I'm talking about.
purrcat259 10y ago
Malta's still selling passports if you want in on EU and Schengen :) http://www.maltaimmigration.com/ http://www.maltaimmigration.com/
- vinay427 10y ago
  Just as a clarification, it does not mean anything to have citizenship of a country that is in the Schengen agreement, which simply covers border enforcement when traveling between signatory countries, not immigration status. These rules in theory apply equally to all citizens, with some special provisions for EU (+ CH, etc.) citizens covering things such as required ID.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
dang 10y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14029690 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14029690 and marked it off-topic.

arjie 10y ago

Everyone sells residency and citizenship. The list of desirable countries that don't is probably shorter than the list that do. Latvia, for instance, is much cheaper and gets you into Schengen with an investor visa followed up by investor citizenship.

stupidcar 10y ago
Yep. Want to become resident in the UK? Agree to invest £1m and a "Tier 1" visa is yours: https://www.gov.uk/tier-1-investor https://www.gov.uk/tier-1-investor. The US has a similar programme to sell Immigrant Investor Visas: https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/immigrate/Immigrant-Investor-Visas.html https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/immigrate/Immigran....
- rahimnathwani 10y ago
  2m for a limited time visa. 5m if you want to settle
  - geff82 10y ago
    And I personally there is nothing wrong with being able to buy a visa. Many people in a country don't pay few taxes in their life. So when someone comes and invests a good amount, it is ok to honor this with visa or passport. Would just be cool if every country would allow easier immigration for ordinary people, too.
    - cylinder 10y ago
      No, it's not okay, it reduces citizenship and community to a dollar value, which is just more neoliberalism. It doesn't pay the government anything either - for eb5 investor commonly makes a profit, and only has to employ ten Americans at full time minimum wage (not much tax there). The immigrants income is usually left back home (mainly China) and they don't declare it in the US since it's out of reach of the IRS. Mainly they send the spouse and kids to use top public schools and down the line they get social security and Medicare too. It's a complete scam
      - geff82 10y ago
        So you would rather not let them create the 10 jobs (which, compared to many other countries, is quite much)? I mean, they do not only have to "create" them and leave empty, they have to find real working people for them. So even if they were minimum wage, I guess American software architects would not take them. At least in the job market, those "evil" investors have to be somehow competitive (you get what you pay for). And what about those who create a bigger business with bigger salaries? Should they all stay in the home country?
      - rahimnathwani 10y ago
        I suspect that there's some potential for abuse under both the UK and US systems, but there are some safeguards: 1) US citizens are taxed on global income forever. (Perhaps it's hard for the IRS to enforce for people whose assets are in countries that don't share information with the US, but it's not impossible.) 2) UK tier-1 investor visa holders must be outside the UK for fewer than 180 days per year, which means they must be in the UK for 185 or 186 days per year, which means they would be subject to tax on their global income during that period. (But of course once they become British Citizens, they could ensure they stay in the UK for fewer than 183 days per year, meaning they'd only pay tax on their local income (which could be zero)).
fest 10y ago
In Latvia you either have to buy a property worth more than 250kEUR, invest more than 35kEUR in a business or deposit more than 280k. From my standpoint, the biggest risk is a certain neighbour country with historical appetite for "preserving it's territorial interests".
hellofunk 10y ago
I think Singapore gives you permanent resident status just for buying a house there! Of course, buying property in Singapore is no small feat for most people.
- Muromec 10y ago
  There is always an old trick of setting up a company and hiring yourself as qualified worker, then getting PR status in few years.
  - hellofunk 10y ago
    In Singapore that still requires large capital investment in your company.

ssambros 10y ago

It is relatively easy to get a software engineer job in Germany and couple of years later get a residency, so no, residencies are not the only reason people moved to Cyprus.

sporkenfang 10y ago
If a person theoretically spoke French and English but had not yet studied German, would that make such a leap more difficult?
- captainmuon 10y ago
  From my experience, people get along pretty well in Germany even if they know only English. Especially in large cities like Berlin, where they are likely to get such a job. So many people speak good English here, that it is actually hard to learn German, because the natives don't want to speak German with you :-). I'm in research, and half of my institute here in Berlin are foreigners. Of course, it still helps a lot to learn German - and I think you miss out on a lot if you don't learn the language of a country. Also, you'll need a friend or colleague to help you with administrative stuff in the beginning (which may be in German only).
- magic_beans 10y ago
  I know about 6 American software engineers who don't speak a lick of German working in Berlin.
- pizza234 10y ago
  Going through the whoishiring.io job offers, Germany has a comparatively high number of job ads written in German (even for remote positions). This is very interesting, as it may point to a less international work culture (although this is in the process of changing), which this translates to a "possibly yes" answer to your question. Of course, whoishiring.io may not reflect accurately real world, still, I don't think it's random. Answer of the type "N people work here in Germany without speaking german" are not correct answers, since they don't imply a comparison (the question is comparative).

anovikov 10y ago

That is not a EU permanent residency permit. It is just for Cyprus. Cyprus is not even in Schengen, and this permit doesn't even allow free travel, you still need a visa to go even to Greece. It also gives no right to work or do any kind of business (even in Cyprus), i.e. it is against the goals of these people, it is mostly for retirees. A 2-year residence permit which becomes permanent in 5 years is easy to get in any Baltic country, and it is a lot less restricting. That is, if you are too rich to work, but not rich enough to buy a passport. Otherwise you can get a permanent permit in Germany after 2 years of work which will give you full rights similar to U.S. green card, in all of the EU.

StavrosK 10y ago
Do you need a visa to go to Greece? Cypriot citizens can definitely travel to Greece with just their ID cards, but I'm not sure about immigrants.
- anovikov 10y ago
  Of course, because they are EU citizens. All EU citizens can travel freely. But immigrants need a visa since Cyprus is not in Schengen. This is the case with all non-Schengen EU countries, like, immigrants living in London need a visa to go to Paris, but a Romanian doesn't need visa to go to London. An immigrant in a Schengen country can travel to any other Schengen country plus new non-Schengen entrants: Cyprus, Romania, Bulgaria and Croatia. For example, i am an immigrant in Lithuania (Schengen) and i travelled to Cyprus and Romania with no visa (i can't even technically apply for one), plus many Schengen states.
  - 6t6t6t6 10y ago
    This situation is not uncommon. [Reunion Island][0] is a French province, but it is not in Schengen neither. Any European can go to live and work to Reunion Island, but a foreigner with a Schengen Permit cannot. [0]: https://goo.gl/maps/TAJoEYLp7m32 https://goo.gl/maps/TAJoEYLp7m32
  - Y_Y 10y ago

reason_police 10y ago

> I'm sure that has nothing to do with the fact that since 3 years ago Cyprus (among others) 'sells' EU permanent residency permits to rich foreigners. You know, the solution to "problems" like that is to abolish visas altogether. A visa is essentially a permission to exist in a certain geographical area. Why exactly do you need one? Yes I know governments won't let you in/out without one, but what sense does it make? What possible moral justification is there, for preventing you from moving freely when you're not harming anyone else? You've heard of people "misusing" their visas, right? But how crazy is the idea of "misusing" your permission to exist in an area? How crazy is it that visas come with a list of activities you're allowed to engage in? For example, if you're on a tourist visa, you're not allowed to work in exchange for money, nor sell your company's product to someone. You might think it's because governments need to keep track of who owes them taxes and how much, but um.. what sense does that make? Say you were born in England and lived there all your life. Then you fly over to Thailand on a tourist visa, and you fix someone's bicycle in exchange for a small fee. How/why is Thailand's government entitled to a cut of the money you made in doing that? If you believe in the Social Contract, does that get temporarily passed from England to Thailand, for the duration of your stay? Or did you perhaps unwittingly sign a new one with Thailand, by entering their territory? Would sitting on a plane that happens to cross some specific unseen line on a map constitute agreeing to a binding obligation to hand over some of your income to the organization "in charge" of the area you entered? Of course not, but that's what The Rules say. But why/how are we bound by The Rules? Well, we're not. Not in any objective, moral sense at all. But we all obey the rules anyway. Why is that, besides to avoid being punished for disobedience?

throwanem 10y ago
Familiarize yourself with Chesterton's fence. It might give you some insight into one of the reasons why your rhetoric finds no traction.
- reason_police 10y ago
  Nah. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

purrcat259 10y ago

Malta's still selling passports if you want in on EU and Schengen :) http://www.maltaimmigration.com/ http://www.maltaimmigration.com/

vinay427 10y ago
Just as a clarification, it does not mean anything to have citizenship of a country that is in the Schengen agreement, which simply covers border enforcement when traveling between signatory countries, not immigration status. These rules in theory apply equally to all citizens, with some special provisions for EU (+ CH, etc.) citizens covering things such as required ID.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

dang 10y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14029690 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14029690 and marked it off-topic.