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DOJ Cautions Employers Seeking H-1B Visas Not to Discriminate Against US Workers
- skookum 10y agoThis also came out and is more narrowly focused on areas relevant to frequent discussion on HN: https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/files/nativedocuments/PM-6002-0142-H-1BComputerRelatedPositionsRecission.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/files/nativedocume... SUBJECT: Rescission of the December 22, 2000 “Guidance memo on H1B computer related positions” (edit to add:) Some key passages from the USCIS memorandum: "... an entry-level computer programmer position would not generally qualify as a position in a specialty occupation ... Based on the current version of the Handbook, the fact that a person may be employed as a computer programmer and may use information technology skills and knowledge to help an enterprise achieve its goals in the course of his or her job is not sufficient to establish the position as a specialty occupation."
- flyingramen 10y agoThis is just bringing up the Nebraska center up to speed with the California and Vermont centers. This is done because Nebraska will restart processing H-1B application which it had not been. USCIS clarified there is no change in policy.
- rhizome 10y ago"... an entry-level computer programmer position would not generally qualify as a position in a specialty occupation ... So that's why every job is "Senior Developer" now.
- madeofpalk 10y ago"Senior Developer" is the new "Entry-level developer". Now we have job title inflation.
- ziszis 10y agoH1b visas have primarily been used by consulting companies to bring in less expensive junior engineers (<$100k) [1]. If new directives make it harder to sponsor junior engineers, it will shift the mix to more senior engineers. This will shift the supply/demand curves, so that US salaries will come down for senior engineers and go up for junior engineers. [1] http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2017-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2017-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx
- throwasehasdwi 10y agoH1b abusing consulting companies tend to pick the job title with the lowest average compensation no matter what, since the official job title governs allowed salary limits in H1b. This is why the average salary for a "software consultant" is so much lower than most other titles. These companies all pile on the same lightly used job title to synergistically lower the average salary. I don't think it has anything to do with seniority levels, it's money. The fact that most of these devs are brought in as junior engineers shows that these companies don't really need employees with specialized knowledge, which is the whole point of the program.
- negrit 10y agoThey also invented some new job titles: http://www.jobsintech.io/immigration_companies/infosys-limited/salaries#title=technology%20lead&soc_code=&city=&state=&page=0&year=%5B%5D&visa_class=%5B%5D&wage_level=%5B%5D&sort=%5B%5D http://www.jobsintech.io/immigration_companies/infosys-limit...
- jitix 10y ago89k for Cupertino, CA. That's hilarious.
- acchow 10y agoMore demand for senior engineers will decrease their salaries?
- manis404 10y agoWhy should a US worker be prioritized over an Indian/Pakistani one? I cannot even begin to understand the logic behind such a decision.
- negrit 10y agoThe consulting firms have been abusing the H-1B system for years. I've been documenting it for couple years here: http://www.jobsintech.io/immigration_companies#name=&city=&state=&page= http://www.jobsintech.io/immigration_companies#name=&city=&s... You can clearly see that the top companies using H-1B visas are consulting firms.
- EduardoBautista 10y agoWhy are green card and h1-b numbers all equal?
- negrit 10y agoGood catch. Fixing it right now
- mavelikara 10y agoBetween large outsourcing companies (TCS, Infy, Cognizant, IBM etc) and American staffing companies (Edison-based "desi body shops" etc) - who uses H-1Bs more, in your analysis?
- douche 10y agoclearly, by the numbers, its the shit shows like tcs and cognizant, ibm and infosys. I dread the reseller opportunities we get from those disorganized fucknuts.
- lifesucks1 10y agoSomeone posted this link. https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/h-1b-specialty-occupations-and-fashion-models/combating-fraud-and-abuse-h-1b-visa-program https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker... There are whole IT divisions where there is not a single US citizen or GC holder. Tell me how can one distinguish between projects where the whole project members are H1B holders. Do you expect anyone to complain? The whole thing feels like a april fools joke to me....
- mavelikara 10y agoAlso, USCIS has announced plans to combat H-1B fraud [1]. They seem to provide two provisions with this: 1) An avenue [2] for members of the workforce to report H-1B abuse. People on H-1B are offered some protection against retaliation. 2) Targeted onsite visits at worksites of employers who have larger fraction of their employees on H-1Bs, and those who sent employees to other locations. Together, this seems to be aimed at curbing H-1B abuse by staffing companies. Some Silicon Valley employers - like Apple, Cisco etc - who use these staffing companies extensively might also be affected. But overall, this should be good news for both H-1B employees and citizens/permanent residents. [1]: https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/h-1b-specialty-occupations-and-fashion-models/combating-fraud-and-abuse-h-1b-visa-program https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker... [2]: An email address really - ReportH1BAbuse@uscis.dhs.gov
- int_19h 10y agoYou know what's the fastest way to curb H-1B fraud? Make it so that if an H-1B visa holder complains, and their complaint is found to be valid, they are entitled to apply for a green card immediately, and get EAD for the duration of their application.
- rfw 10y agoThen you get H-1B fraud complaint fraud ;)
- r00fus 10y agoI'm fairly sure an H1B'er isn't going to seek extra USCIS attention unless things are bad.
- int_19h 10y agoIt would be pretty hard to defraud the government here. Either a complaint is valid, or it is not. If it's valid, then by definition it's not fraud, and the employer gets punished (fined, prohibited from hiring any further H1Bs etc). If it's not valid, then employee gets no green card, and their employer is likely pissed enough at them that they get fired. So collusion between employer and employee is basically impossible here, because either way, someone has to suffer the negative consequences.
- techk 10y agoNo matter how you frame the issue, call it an abuse, or try to solve it, I don't think anything will change other than some minor adjustments. Jobs are not going to magically appear or wages rise. India/China has a huge supply of engineers across the board (good, bad, senior, junior etc.,). And US companies always want to maximize their profits. So increasing the bar on H-1B visas will increase the quality of H-1B's making their way to US.(very competent, hard working, willing to work for lower wages in the initial years). This is a huge benefit for technology companies who can directly recruit from these countries for US offices, which they were not doing before due to lottery uncertainties, and instead had to rely on L-1 route. (recruit for local office, then transfer) As for the other US jobs that were being filled by low skilled H-1B's, they will simply move offshore/nearshore/remote or replaced by AI in few years. This is a big win for consulting firms as their offshore profitability per employee is 3 times higher than onsite. Given a choice, they would want all their employees offshore, and the only reason they had to bring in some % of H-1B's was on the US client companies request, which they may do away with now. Bottomline: Protectionism did not work for manufacturing, and will not work for Tech either.
- tangocom 10y agoProtectionism does work. Just ask the Lawyers and the Airline pilots. The reason software engineers are not paid as well now is because we don't have a Bar association or Labor union to keep out the low rate foreign competition.
- aub3bhat 10y agoLawyers and Pilots, hahhahahaha. I guess you are completely out of loop on unemployment among Lawyers. And Airline Pilots are even worse off. So no some magical unicorn union isn't going to fix massive oversupply of intelligent Chinese and Indians, if America tries another not directly named Chinese Exclusion Act (The White House just tried that with Muslim Ban), then maybe its Canada who will benefit.
- nova22033 10y ago>The reason software engineers are not paid as well The annual mean wage for Software engineers is higher than that for lawyers and pilots. https://www.bls.gov/oes/2015/may/oes_nat.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/2015/may/oes_nat.htm
- solutionyogi 10y agoI am so torn on this. On one hand, I spent 10 years on H1B in the US and the amount of H1B abuse that goes on is crazy. On the other hand, I would not have received my H1B under current guidelines.
- ebola1717 10y agoYeah, this policy is very clearly meant to curb immigration, not H1B abuse.
- AlexB138 10y agoCan you explain why that is? I'm not clear on how that's the case.
- ConfuciusSay02 10y agoTech workers have been complaining about H1B abuse since its inception. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU Trump should be given credit for finally doing something about instead of Trump-deranged people looking for phantom motives.
- dukeluke 10y agoI feel for the immigrants who won't be able to come, but this kind of abuse is hurting the career outlook for Americans. Our government needs to put the citizens ahead of the corporate interests.
- l3m0ndr0p 10y agoMany Financial Brick and Mortar, like JP Morgan Chase uses H1Bs quite heavily. Many of the job positing listed show this. H1Bs are used as a cheap source of labor and nothing more.
- Panini_Jones 10y ago> H1Bs are used as a cheap source of labor and nothing more. Really? Even at companies like Google and FB?
- KKKKkkkk1 10y agoFor a few years, I worked at a US government joint that abused the visa system to reduce its labor costs. The junior positions were staffed 100% by foreign workers who were being paid 25% to 50% of market rates. The problem is that the US immigration system is rife with selective enforcement. Many rules are open to interpretation, and officers have full discretion as to how they interpret them. In this, the US is unique among nations that uphold the rule of law.
- adrr 10y agoEasiest solution is stack rank all H1b applicants by salary and fill the quota with based on ranking. Top talent in theory should be making the most money so we wouldn't risk losing them.
- madeofpalk 10y agoSeems like an incredibly short-sighted strategy to ensure that only one type of person get's the visa.
- adrr 10y agoComputer programmers aren't the highest paid H1Bs. http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2017-H1B-Visa-Category.aspx?T=OC http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2017-H1B-Visa-Category.asp...
- gambiting 10y agoHmmm. I have a friend who has an extremely specific PhD and was offered a job in Atlanta, for a position that would be hard to fill otherwise as his expertise is quite unique. So on one hand, you have a person with unique expertise, but on the other, he would be joining as a junior, so he would be paid a great salary - for that level. But he would be competing for visas with Seniors who will be paid more at other companies, purely because of their age/experience?
- lovich 10y ago
- nickpsecurity 10y agoOne in my area straight-up said "H1-B Visa's Preferred" on the job notice. Not even worried about hiding it. I wonder if any are doing that now.
- lifesucks1 10y agoIt took me less than 5 seconds to come up with one. DOJ needs people to complain about this??? Seriously its wide out in the open. They can just go through job boards and figure what is going on in less than a few days and know which companies to prosecute. Let us break this position below up. Basically no one other than H1b/F1 are welcome. Show me what specialized skill is needed in the requirements. Why shouldn't an american apply for these jobs? https://www.indeed.com/cmp/American-Technology-Consulting-LLC/jobs/Business-Analyst-1e9f82e47a505a26?sjdu=QwrRXKrqZ3CNX5W-O9jEvYFcACbv-DthnUj_IRiMl_guugm44-mzV0A5DRJMTjrbwqOA599AiEevu5SiwhGxLZRCGTTWuXZZK_bCOrO_1EA https://www.indeed.com/cmp/American-Technology-Consulting-LL...
- mavelikara 10y ago[IANAL] Advertising a job specifically targeting H-1Bs is illegal. You should consider writing in to ReportH1BAbuse@uscis.dhs.gov about it.
- dimitar9909 10y agoMake America great again. Get rid of those Indians and Chinks.
- douche 10y agoGood. Fuck the bodyshop consulting firms. We work with a few of them, and they are universally terrible.
- spectistcles 10y agoYou're just going to see more remote work. No one's going to want to lose those profits once they have them.
- rodionos 10y agoThere is H-1B, but there is also H-4 (dependents), as well as L-1/L-2. My prediction is that if H-1B visas will be squeezed, we'll see a pick-up in L-1. https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/8c9bb9cc/8/#fullscreen https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/8c9bb9cc/8/#fullscreen
- praneshp 10y agoWhat has H-4 got to do with anything? You can't work on that.
- rodionos 10y agoYou can't, but you can search for a job with an employer who would be willing to sponsor an H1-B. Being in the country makes it much easier.
- mavelikara 10y ago> you can search for a job with an employer who would be willing to sponsor an H1-B What is wrong in doing that?
- rodionos 10y agoIt causes incremental demand for H1-B visas from H-4 dependents whose specialized skills were not sufficient to warrant an issuance of an H1-B visa in the first place. This could be happening at the expense of more qualified H1-B candidates without physical presence in the country, as well as at the expense of citizens and permanent residents.
- zerr 10y ago> whose specialized skills were not sufficient to warrant an issuance of an H1-B visa in the first place And how this changes if you apply for H1B while in US (on H-4)? Are the requirements softened?
- cromwellian 10y agoI'm concerned about the effect this will have on F-1 Visa holders, if they can't convert to H1-b, they'll take their graduate degree back to their home country which is a net negative for us. This seems to be throwing out the baby with the bath water, if you want to fix the body shop consulting firm issue, then target that. "Entry level programmer" is very broad, it could mean a guy with no experience who just graduated MIT with expertise in machine learning, but no projects under his belt.
- corporateslave 10y agoMost immigrants treat graduate degrees like a back foot toward immigration. Sure the ones at MIT should stay here, but most are getting a masters at Mississippi state, in hopes of immigrating.
- jordanb 10y agoThis is still predicated on the assumption that there's a STEM shortage right? Almost everyone I know who has a graduate degree in CS came here on a visa. The reason is because employers don't reward graduate degrees in CS with compensation commiserate with their costs. So US nationals make the rational decision to not pursue a graduate degree. But if you're a foreign national, getting a graduate degree from a US school increases the likelihood of getting a Visa. So they make a different rational calculation. If employers want their programmers to have graduate degrees they can make the bump in pay worthwhile, and American students will start pursuing graduate degrees.
- thr0waway1239 10y ago>> This is still predicated on the assumption that there's a STEM shortage right? Not at all. It is predicated on the assumption that a programmer is not the same as a compiler writer, and the former cannot exist without the latter, while the latter can exist without the former. Almost none of the theoretical advances we are having in machine learning, deep learning and what-not could happen without some people who are crazy enough to venture into graduate degrees. Not everyone who holds a graduate degree can write a compiler, true. But by the same token, not everyone who calls themselves a programmer can code either.
- known 10y agoToo late now https://qz.com/889524 https://qz.com/889524
- known 10y agoNot an easy task http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/24/indians-among-most-corrupt-while-doing-business-abroad.htm http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/24/indians-among-...
- ThomPete 10y agoIts a welcome change and really should have been done a long time ago. Not only does it create unfair competion into the US market it also allow companies to underpay their employers.
- jitix 10y agoAs an Indian software engineer on H1B I totally support this idea. I see a lot of Indians working with the consulting companies where entire departments are staffed by H1B workers on low (65-70k) salary. That kind of work is degrading even for the engineers who don't get any raises, are overworked and have very few benefits. But this is how things are. However my main concern is that because the lawmakers don't understand the intricacies of the ecosystem, they might create laws that implement blanket restrictions on software engineers across different domains (that have real shortage in the US market) and salary bands. The earlier proposal for 130k salary band also doesn't make sense since the cost of living, and the salaries, vary widely across different cities. For example I work at a startup working on some niche technologies and we have had real difficulties hiring good people even though we pay way above market wage for the location (NC).
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- an_cap 10y ago"That kind of work is degrading even for the engineers who don't get any raises, are overworked and have very few benefits. But this is how things are." My sister recently completed a coding boot-camp in NYC but had to go back to India to work as a software developer at a startup for $12,000 / year. She would LOVE to be 'degraded' by a 65k-70k job.
- jitix 10y agoIt depends. 12k in India is a good salary in most cities whereas 65k in New York won't even enable you to rent a studio apartment. My last salary in India was around 15k a year and when I moved here I was initially getting 65k during probation period. Despite NC being a rather cheap place I immediately saw my relative spending power (eating out, etc) go down. The only good thing is that electronics are cheaper compared to wage levels.
- mjad2003 10y agoThe company I have been working as a contractor for several years decided last year to cancel all contractor contracts. Most American contract workers had their contracts cancelled at the end of calendar year 2016, only a few Americans were extended past the beginning of the new calendar year but all H-1B visa contractors were hired into permanent positions. Now as one of the extended American contractors, I have been notified my contract will be terminated, though I am highly qualified and have a very heavy work load. I believe during this month I will be called upon to train another less qualified worker in my current duties. This is occurring all through tech industries.