7 ms·

What baffles me that it is still considered OK to indoctrinate children with provably false beliefs.

by rimliu 10y ago

dkarapetyan 10y ago
That baffles you? Because of Romania's anti-vaccination movement 17 children are now dead: http://globalnews.ca/news/3345439/deadly-measles-outbreak-spreads-in-europe-as-vaccinations-fall/ http://globalnews.ca/news/3345439/deadly-measles-outbreak-sp.... At the end of the day humans are just apes.
blowski 10y ago
What's the alternative? A civil servant deciding what is allowed to be taught to children? Can you teach skepticism by saying "you're not allowed to learn this stuff over here"? Seems to me that allowing science to win out in the 'market of ideas' is the healthiest solution.
- abalashov 10y ago
  Which is fine, if science has a fighting chance in such a marketplace. But the inherent humility and uncertainty of rigourous science is often no match for snake oil and demagoguery, as we know.
  - dagw 10y ago
    Disagree very much. Church attendance all over Europe is declining at a significant rate, and even among those still attending, the number of people who truly believe is dropping. And even among those few who still truly believe the general consensus is strongly in favour of science and the scientific method. Science not only has a fighting chance, it is dominating.
    - abalashov 10y ago
      For a stark contrast, come visit the USA! :-)
      - Neliquat 10y ago
        Its down here too... just try to find a city where they havent turned many an old church into a b&b, goth disco, or yuppie homes (thanks to grandfathered zoning exemptions in residential areas). Sure southern baptists and penicostals are a bit nutty in comparison, but louder =/= more.
    - ooqr 10y ago
      Religion can still hold on to the fact that the only position you can actually arrive at by reason alone is agnosticism. Hostility toward science by religion is irrational and self-defeating, as is the converse.
- rimliu 10y ago
  Not fair competition when indoctrination is given a headstart. There is a difference between being allowed to learn this stuff and being indoctrinated since the days you are not even able to read.
  - khedoros1 10y ago
    So, should children be given to the care of the state at the earliest possible age? Or you'd rather have mass prosecution and re-education to stamp out beliefs that you dislike? In the long run, maladaptive beliefs will die out and useful ones will survive, head start or no.
    - cyborgx7 10y ago
      I don't understand. I'm not advocating for the state to stamp out beliefs I disagree with. But the believes that should win out and survive should be the correct ones, not the useful ones.
      - khedoros1 10y ago
        The person that I replied to seemed to be saying that certain beliefs should be disallowed, and that's what I was responding to. As to what should win out: Truth is a fine ideal to work towards, but one should never expect that it's what will actually win. "Should" is like "deserves". They're nice to think about, but not always realistic.
  - ooqr 10y ago
    You're digging up a philosophical morass, though. Please prove that you weren't indoctrinated. In general, it's not possible if you're assuming the possibility that people can be brainwashed to the degree of rejecting reason.
- xupybd 10y ago
  I can't agree with you more. When the state steps in to control what people are allowed to teach their children we have entered into a very very scary time. Freedom of personal belief is fundamental to all freedom. If we allow the state to dictate the beliefs taught to children we take away that freedom.
  - socialist_coder 10y ago
    Did you know that homeschooling your children is illegal in every country in the EU except for the UK (and it is very rare there)? For Americans, this is shocking (it was to me). "I can't homeschool my own children?!? That isn't freedom!" But in practice, the vast majority of homeschoolers are evangelical christians or other religious extremists. For the good of society, I would gladly take that trade. Think about this another way: in the US, homeschool parents can impart any view they want on their children. They "win by default" because there are no competing viewpoints. In the EU, parents are still free to try and impart their beliefs on their children. But in this case, they need a stronger argument than what the school is providing. They will not "win by default" like in the US. I can't see anything "unfree" about that.
    - dottedmag 10y ago
      When did Denmark, Slovenia, Italy, Ireland, Hungary and France leave the EU?
      - socialist_coder 10y ago
        Thanks for the correction. I thought it was illegal everywhere. I think my point is still valid though, especially because in many of those countries, yearly inspections are mandatory (unlike the US).
        literallycancer 10y ago
        >I think my point is still valid though, especially because in many of those countries, yearly inspections are mandatory (unlike the US). The inspections ensure that your parents can't fuck up your life. I think it's a good middle ground between allowing everything and nothing.
- adrianratnapala 10y ago
  I agree with your sentiments, but we are not really being fair to rimliu, who has not actually mentioned government, science or any of their competitors. So while I agree that there is no alternative better than the market-place of ideas; that's still compatible with saying its morally wrong to indoctrinate your children with falsehoods. Being sloppy about your beliefs -- i.e. just going with your gut and not questioning -- is OK when it's just yourself. But maybe you should only teach kids about the things you have considered more carefully.
- literallycancer 10y ago
  >What's the alternative? A civil servant deciding what is allowed to be taught to children? It's not an alternative, it's what happens now, and will always happen, unless there is some major disruption in education.
sametmax 10y ago
It's not as easy as regulate as stealing or murder. It's more like with freedom of speech. If you start drawing a line, you end up harming the very thing you tried to defend.
dredmorbius 10y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children
carsongross 10y ago
Can you give us some examples of provably false beliefs being taught to children?
- adrianN 10y ago
  Santa brings presents to well behaved children on Christmas.
  - nf05papsjfVbc 10y ago
    Heaven and Hell are just adult versions of this.
  - grkvlt 10y ago
    I was brought up not to believe in Santa (and apparently got into trouble at school for upsetting other children by telling them he didn't exist) and find it amazing that other parents are happy to lie to their children like this - setting a precedent that adults are not to be trusted, thus undermining lots of potentially valuable true advice. On the other hand, my family also took me to church every week, so there's that...
    - carsongross 10y ago
      Surely, the phenomenological existence of Santa can be understood by HackerNews readers, no? Santa is a spirit and exists spiritually in as much as he has an effect on this world. And so we find he has, and, therefore, does. I don't expect most HackerNews readers to agree with that argument (I am of two minds on it) but I would hope it recommends to them a bit of intellectual humility.
      - grkvlt 10y ago
        Maybe, maybe, maybe ... in the loosest, most hand-wavingly vague, almost, kind of sense, yes, IF - you s/spirit/concept/ then yes, that could be said to be true. But one could use the same argument about God, surely? In that the concept has a measurable effect on the world through the actions of believers, therefore He exists.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
AnimalMuppet 10y ago
This is kind of an ironic comment to a post about intellectual humility...

What baffles me that it is still considered OK to indoctrinate children with provably false beliefs.

by rimliu 10y ago

What baffles me that it is still considered OK to indoctrinate children with provably false beliefs.

That baffles you? Because of Romania's anti-vaccination movement 17 children are now dead: http://globalnews.ca/news/3345439/deadly-measles-outbreak-spreads-in-europe-as-vaccinations-fall/ http://globalnews.ca/news/3345439/deadly-measles-outbreak-sp.... At the end of the day humans are just apes.

blowski 10y ago

What's the alternative? A civil servant deciding what is allowed to be taught to children? Can you teach skepticism by saying "you're not allowed to learn this stuff over here"? Seems to me that allowing science to win out in the 'market of ideas' is the healthiest solution.

abalashov 10y ago
Which is fine, if science has a fighting chance in such a marketplace. But the inherent humility and uncertainty of rigourous science is often no match for snake oil and demagoguery, as we know.
- dagw 10y ago
  Disagree very much. Church attendance all over Europe is declining at a significant rate, and even among those still attending, the number of people who truly believe is dropping. And even among those few who still truly believe the general consensus is strongly in favour of science and the scientific method. Science not only has a fighting chance, it is dominating.
  - abalashov 10y ago
    For a stark contrast, come visit the USA! :-)
    - Neliquat 10y ago
      Its down here too... just try to find a city where they havent turned many an old church into a b&b, goth disco, or yuppie homes (thanks to grandfathered zoning exemptions in residential areas). Sure southern baptists and penicostals are a bit nutty in comparison, but louder =/= more.
  - ooqr 10y ago
    Religion can still hold on to the fact that the only position you can actually arrive at by reason alone is agnosticism. Hostility toward science by religion is irrational and self-defeating, as is the converse.
rimliu 10y ago
Not fair competition when indoctrination is given a headstart. There is a difference between being allowed to learn this stuff and being indoctrinated since the days you are not even able to read.
- khedoros1 10y ago
  So, should children be given to the care of the state at the earliest possible age? Or you'd rather have mass prosecution and re-education to stamp out beliefs that you dislike? In the long run, maladaptive beliefs will die out and useful ones will survive, head start or no.
  - cyborgx7 10y ago
    I don't understand. I'm not advocating for the state to stamp out beliefs I disagree with. But the believes that should win out and survive should be the correct ones, not the useful ones.
    - khedoros1 10y ago
      The person that I replied to seemed to be saying that certain beliefs should be disallowed, and that's what I was responding to. As to what should win out: Truth is a fine ideal to work towards, but one should never expect that it's what will actually win. "Should" is like "deserves". They're nice to think about, but not always realistic.
- ooqr 10y ago
  You're digging up a philosophical morass, though. Please prove that you weren't indoctrinated. In general, it's not possible if you're assuming the possibility that people can be brainwashed to the degree of rejecting reason.
xupybd 10y ago
I can't agree with you more. When the state steps in to control what people are allowed to teach their children we have entered into a very very scary time. Freedom of personal belief is fundamental to all freedom. If we allow the state to dictate the beliefs taught to children we take away that freedom.
- socialist_coder 10y ago
  Did you know that homeschooling your children is illegal in every country in the EU except for the UK (and it is very rare there)? For Americans, this is shocking (it was to me). "I can't homeschool my own children?!? That isn't freedom!" But in practice, the vast majority of homeschoolers are evangelical christians or other religious extremists. For the good of society, I would gladly take that trade. Think about this another way: in the US, homeschool parents can impart any view they want on their children. They "win by default" because there are no competing viewpoints. In the EU, parents are still free to try and impart their beliefs on their children. But in this case, they need a stronger argument than what the school is providing. They will not "win by default" like in the US. I can't see anything "unfree" about that.
  - dottedmag 10y ago
    When did Denmark, Slovenia, Italy, Ireland, Hungary and France leave the EU?
    - socialist_coder 10y ago
      Thanks for the correction. I thought it was illegal everywhere. I think my point is still valid though, especially because in many of those countries, yearly inspections are mandatory (unlike the US).
      - literallycancer 10y ago
        >I think my point is still valid though, especially because in many of those countries, yearly inspections are mandatory (unlike the US). The inspections ensure that your parents can't fuck up your life. I think it's a good middle ground between allowing everything and nothing.
adrianratnapala 10y ago
I agree with your sentiments, but we are not really being fair to rimliu, who has not actually mentioned government, science or any of their competitors. So while I agree that there is no alternative better than the market-place of ideas; that's still compatible with saying its morally wrong to indoctrinate your children with falsehoods. Being sloppy about your beliefs -- i.e. just going with your gut and not questioning -- is OK when it's just yourself. But maybe you should only teach kids about the things you have considered more carefully.
literallycancer 10y ago
>What's the alternative? A civil servant deciding what is allowed to be taught to children? It's not an alternative, it's what happens now, and will always happen, unless there is some major disruption in education.

sametmax 10y ago

It's not as easy as regulate as stealing or murder. It's more like with freedom of speech. If you start drawing a line, you end up harming the very thing you tried to defend.

dredmorbius 10y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children

carsongross 10y ago

Can you give us some examples of provably false beliefs being taught to children?

adrianN 10y ago
Santa brings presents to well behaved children on Christmas.
- nf05papsjfVbc 10y ago
  Heaven and Hell are just adult versions of this.
- grkvlt 10y ago
  I was brought up not to believe in Santa (and apparently got into trouble at school for upsetting other children by telling them he didn't exist) and find it amazing that other parents are happy to lie to their children like this - setting a precedent that adults are not to be trusted, thus undermining lots of potentially valuable true advice. On the other hand, my family also took me to church every week, so there's that...
  - carsongross 10y ago
    Surely, the phenomenological existence of Santa can be understood by HackerNews readers, no? Santa is a spirit and exists spiritually in as much as he has an effect on this world. And so we find he has, and, therefore, does. I don't expect most HackerNews readers to agree with that argument (I am of two minds on it) but I would hope it recommends to them a bit of intellectual humility.
    - grkvlt 10y ago
      Maybe, maybe, maybe ... in the loosest, most hand-wavingly vague, almost, kind of sense, yes, IF - you s/spirit/concept/ then yes, that could be said to be true. But one could use the same argument about God, surely? In that the concept has a measurable effect on the world through the actions of believers, therefore He exists.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

AnimalMuppet 10y ago

This is kind of an ironic comment to a post about intellectual humility...