10 ms·

What makes Fuchsia different then so many other attempts at writing a new OS? They aren't writing a new OS, at least, not in the complete sense. They are using

What makes Fuchsia different then so many other attempts at writing a new OS? They aren't writing a new OS, at least, not in the complete sense. They are using the IPC system developed in and extracted from Chrome. They are drawing everything in userspace with fast graphics render but the logic for all system components written in Dart from the Flutter project. They use musl for the libc. They are using the little kernel for the core kernel. As a long time Linux desktop user myself, I'm really excited about this project. A secure desktop without tons of system calls? Userspace graphics? Not HTML/JS based? But could still be used for development? Yes Please! It's really easy to compile and get it running. Try it out!

jrs95 10y ago
I wonder if they intend to keep Flutter as the primary UI toolkit, or if that was just used out of convenience. If this really ends up being an Android & Chrome OS replacement, and a large portion of code being written for it also ran natively on iOS, that'd be fantastic. Maybe even cool enough to get me to use Dart ;)
- bitmapbrother 10y ago
  Is there a reason not to use Flutter? From what I've seen of Flutter it seems like a very competent cross platform UI toolkit. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they announced that you can start using Dart/Flutter to write cross platform Android/iOS apps at I/O 2017.
  - jrs95 10y ago
    Not that I'm aware of, although the site still says it's a technical preview.
  - sethladd 10y ago
    (disclaimer: I work on the Flutter team.) You can use Flutter today to write an app that runs on iOS and Android. :)
    - greenhouse_gas 10y ago
      How is it in turns of speed? On one hand, the website says that it's compiled to native code (so it can be same speed/faster than Java), but on the other hand, it's based on a soft-type language, which makes optimization difficult (even with V8, JS is still slower than native code). Side question: I understand that Dart was soft-typed because it was supposed to replace/compile to JS, but what advantage does soft-types have against "implied-types" (like auto or go's := ) combined with operator overloading (to allow string+int, for example)?
      - kjksf 10y ago
        Even the original, untyped, Dart was designed to be easier to optimize that JavaScript (e.g. it's class based, not prototype based, so the runtime doesn't have t work as much to optimize object access). Recently Dart has added a strong mode (https://github.com/dart-archive/dev_compiler/blob/master/STRONG_MODE.md https://github.com/dart-archive/dev_compiler/blob/master/STR..., http://news.dartlang.org/2017/01/sound-dart-and-strong-mode.html http://news.dartlang.org/2017/01/sound-dart-and-strong-mode....). One of the reasons for strong mode is to enable better optimizations (https://www.dartlang.org/guides/language/sound-faq#why-strong-mode https://www.dartlang.org/guides/language/sound-faq#why-stron...).
        throwayedidqo 10y ago
        I'm going to save these links for the next time I get downvoted for saying that js object system and dynamic typing suck for performance :). When JS performance threads come up I always mention that JS will never be as fast as Go/Java. Some people have a tantrum when I explain these issues. The sources I usually cite are dense and people just continue to downvote without reading them.
      - bitmapbrother 10y ago
        Dart supports strong typing.
      - markdog12 10y ago
        You might want to watch this talk on AOT compiling Dart, I'll link right to the perf benchmarks: https://youtu.be/lqE4u8s8Iik?t=9m28s https://youtu.be/lqE4u8s8Iik?t=9m28s I think it's a work in progress, but main benefit at least at the time was faster startup.
  - dvdwasibi 10y ago
    There are two talks at I/O 2017 for Flutter. https://events.google.com/io/schedule/?sid=fed907cf-4b51-4337-8ee0-43bca96dec08#may-17 https://events.google.com/io/schedule/?sid=fed907cf-4b51-433... https://events.google.com/io/schedule/?sid=496d01fb-2139-4fd6-84b2-e585d1a20e61#may-19 https://events.google.com/io/schedule/?sid=496d01fb-2139-4fd... Disclaimer: I'm in one of the talks.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    Last year from what I have watched on Dart conference in Munich, Flutter was still very much WIP, not sure how much it has progressed since then.
- thosakwe 10y ago
  Dart has really picked up a lot of traction in the past few years. If you do end up using Dart, I've got the perfect server-side framework for you to try out... ;) https://github.com/angel-dart/angel/wiki https://github.com/angel-dart/angel/wiki
cwp 10y ago
I think this definitely qualifies as a new OS. It's true that not everything is completely reimagined compared to what has come before. So what? Great artists steal.
desdiv 10y ago
>They are drawing everything in userspace with fast graphics render... Dumb question, does this mean that it's limited to software rendering only? You need to go through the kernel to talk to the GPU, right?
- mankash666 10y ago
  No. GPUs typically work over the PCIE bus, and one can talk to PCIE via user space as well. In legacy systems like Linux the mapping of virtual to physical address and generation of scatter-gather-lists (SGLs) resided in the kernel. If one moves the same functionality to the user space without loss in performance (which is what magenta seems to do), there's no benefit to kernel GPU drivers. Then there's the whole "GPL mafia" in the Linux world who'd like to force vendors to open up their drivers by moving as much of the critical pieces to the kernel as possible. In theory, you cannot write a kernel driver without violating the GPL. Fuchsia will have no such impositions. If someone wants to open their driver up, they could. If they believe their offering is superior, and a secret sauce needs protecting, they can keep it closed
  - michaelmrose 10y ago
    You make open source drivers sound like a bad thing.
    - cbsmith 10y ago
      No, but pushing that agenda via architectural level changes is not exactly a way to get a good architecture.
      - icebraining 10y ago
        An architecture is a structural design made to achieve certain goals. They just happen to have another goal to achieve.
        cbsmith 10y ago
ge96 10y ago
Curious on advantages besides being secure. I normally have garbage computers so I like to run lean on stuff. Not to the point of using Arch but Ubuntu with i3. Also will "regular" programs still run. Like as a developer I need VS Code, Filezilla, file manager, Kate, LAMP stack installed. Are there concerns on non-dedicated graphics cards, or running say an ARM-based processor. Also I'm not sure what you mean by '...easy to compile...' How do you compile this? I'll have to read up on it. Get that checksum bruh. I remember trying to use Slackware and for me that was a lot of work. Edit: Oh I see at this time it is limited to three physical machines. Interesting on the Pi 3 part. I wonder if I could try it in Virtual box. But why try it in the first place?
- jjuel 10y ago
  Not often someone says lean and VS Code in the same statement.
  - deno 10y ago
    It’s not very fast, but it’s surprisingly easy on the resources, especially memory. Compare using VS Code w/ Typescript Language Service to any type of dev stack that includes the word “Scala.”
    - jorvi 10y ago
      > It’s not very fast, but it’s surprisingly easy on the resources, especially memory. Open VS Code and then Sublime and be amazed. Atom and VS Code can never be 'easy on the memory' because they have to load an entire Electron instance just to idle.
      - RaleyField 10y ago
        > pen VS Code and then Sublime and be amazed. At what? Using 5% more total resources? Great tradeoff!
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
remir 10y ago
The modular approach seems interesting. Call by meaning?
socmag 10y ago
Yes I'm quite excited as well. Building user land OS's is a fascinating (if not new) idea that I really love to tinker with a myself. It really would be nice if they can pull it off. Read through what I could find of the IPC code a while back. Currently it seems workable but a bit "baroque", then again if, as you say, it is working inside Chrome, I guess it is battle tested. Messaging has always and still is the future for very loosely coupled systems, and driving it all the way down would be really great. Been following this for a while and can't wait to give it a whirl. Plus everyone likes to root for shiny new OS design projects.
socmag 10y ago
Yes I'm quite excited as well. Building user land OS's is a fascinating (if not new) idea that I really love to tinker with a myself. It really would be nice if they can pull it off. Read through what I could find of the IPC code a while back. Currently it seems workable but a bit "baroque", then again if, as you say, it is working inside Chrome, I guess it is battle tested. Messaging has always and still is the future for very loosely coupled systems, and driving it all the way down would be really great. Been following this for a while and can't wait to give it a whirl. Plus everyone likes to root for shiny new OS design projects.
dkarapetyan 10y ago
Oh they're using Dart. That's really cool. Dart is surprisingly pleasant to work with.
combatentropy 10y ago
> They aren't writing a new OS, > at least, not in the complete sense. Neither was Linux. It was based on Unix. Neither was Unix. "The success of UNIX lies not so much in new inventions but rather in the full exploitation of a carefully selected set of fertile ideas . . . " --- Dennis M. Ritchie and Ken Thompson, "The UNIX TimeSharing System"
- Wing0 10y ago
  Maybe Google got tired of "System D" trying to take too much control ...LOL! OR it could be a UEFI experiment... "This project contains some experiments in software that runs on UEFI firmware for the purpose of exploring UEFI development and bootloader development." -https://github.com/fuchsia-mirror/magenta/blob/master/bootloader/README.txt https://github.com/fuchsia-mirror/magenta/blob/master/bootlo...
throwaway91111 10y ago
"The little kernel" appears to be a popcorn brand FWIW.

jrs95 10y ago

I wonder if they intend to keep Flutter as the primary UI toolkit, or if that was just used out of convenience. If this really ends up being an Android & Chrome OS replacement, and a large portion of code being written for it also ran natively on iOS, that'd be fantastic. Maybe even cool enough to get me to use Dart ;)

bitmapbrother 10y ago
Is there a reason not to use Flutter? From what I've seen of Flutter it seems like a very competent cross platform UI toolkit. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they announced that you can start using Dart/Flutter to write cross platform Android/iOS apps at I/O 2017.
- jrs95 10y ago
  Not that I'm aware of, although the site still says it's a technical preview.
- sethladd 10y ago
  (disclaimer: I work on the Flutter team.) You can use Flutter today to write an app that runs on iOS and Android. :)
  - greenhouse_gas 10y ago
    How is it in turns of speed? On one hand, the website says that it's compiled to native code (so it can be same speed/faster than Java), but on the other hand, it's based on a soft-type language, which makes optimization difficult (even with V8, JS is still slower than native code). Side question: I understand that Dart was soft-typed because it was supposed to replace/compile to JS, but what advantage does soft-types have against "implied-types" (like auto or go's := ) combined with operator overloading (to allow string+int, for example)?
    - kjksf 10y ago
      Even the original, untyped, Dart was designed to be easier to optimize that JavaScript (e.g. it's class based, not prototype based, so the runtime doesn't have t work as much to optimize object access). Recently Dart has added a strong mode (https://github.com/dart-archive/dev_compiler/blob/master/STRONG_MODE.md https://github.com/dart-archive/dev_compiler/blob/master/STR..., http://news.dartlang.org/2017/01/sound-dart-and-strong-mode.html http://news.dartlang.org/2017/01/sound-dart-and-strong-mode....). One of the reasons for strong mode is to enable better optimizations (https://www.dartlang.org/guides/language/sound-faq#why-strong-mode https://www.dartlang.org/guides/language/sound-faq#why-stron...).
      - throwayedidqo 10y ago
        I'm going to save these links for the next time I get downvoted for saying that js object system and dynamic typing suck for performance :). When JS performance threads come up I always mention that JS will never be as fast as Go/Java. Some people have a tantrum when I explain these issues. The sources I usually cite are dense and people just continue to downvote without reading them.
    - bitmapbrother 10y ago
      Dart supports strong typing.
    - markdog12 10y ago
      You might want to watch this talk on AOT compiling Dart, I'll link right to the perf benchmarks: https://youtu.be/lqE4u8s8Iik?t=9m28s https://youtu.be/lqE4u8s8Iik?t=9m28s I think it's a work in progress, but main benefit at least at the time was faster startup.
- dvdwasibi 10y ago
  There are two talks at I/O 2017 for Flutter. https://events.google.com/io/schedule/?sid=fed907cf-4b51-4337-8ee0-43bca96dec08#may-17 https://events.google.com/io/schedule/?sid=fed907cf-4b51-433... https://events.google.com/io/schedule/?sid=496d01fb-2139-4fd6-84b2-e585d1a20e61#may-19 https://events.google.com/io/schedule/?sid=496d01fb-2139-4fd... Disclaimer: I'm in one of the talks.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  Last year from what I have watched on Dart conference in Munich, Flutter was still very much WIP, not sure how much it has progressed since then.
thosakwe 10y ago
Dart has really picked up a lot of traction in the past few years. If you do end up using Dart, I've got the perfect server-side framework for you to try out... ;) https://github.com/angel-dart/angel/wiki https://github.com/angel-dart/angel/wiki

cwp 10y ago

I think this definitely qualifies as a new OS. It's true that not everything is completely reimagined compared to what has come before. So what? Great artists steal.

desdiv 10y ago

>They are drawing everything in userspace with fast graphics render... Dumb question, does this mean that it's limited to software rendering only? You need to go through the kernel to talk to the GPU, right?

mankash666 10y ago
No. GPUs typically work over the PCIE bus, and one can talk to PCIE via user space as well. In legacy systems like Linux the mapping of virtual to physical address and generation of scatter-gather-lists (SGLs) resided in the kernel. If one moves the same functionality to the user space without loss in performance (which is what magenta seems to do), there's no benefit to kernel GPU drivers. Then there's the whole "GPL mafia" in the Linux world who'd like to force vendors to open up their drivers by moving as much of the critical pieces to the kernel as possible. In theory, you cannot write a kernel driver without violating the GPL. Fuchsia will have no such impositions. If someone wants to open their driver up, they could. If they believe their offering is superior, and a secret sauce needs protecting, they can keep it closed
- michaelmrose 10y ago
  You make open source drivers sound like a bad thing.
  - cbsmith 10y ago
    No, but pushing that agenda via architectural level changes is not exactly a way to get a good architecture.
    - icebraining 10y ago
      An architecture is a structural design made to achieve certain goals. They just happen to have another goal to achieve.
      - cbsmith 10y ago

ge96 10y ago

Curious on advantages besides being secure. I normally have garbage computers so I like to run lean on stuff. Not to the point of using Arch but Ubuntu with i3. Also will "regular" programs still run. Like as a developer I need VS Code, Filezilla, file manager, Kate, LAMP stack installed. Are there concerns on non-dedicated graphics cards, or running say an ARM-based processor. Also I'm not sure what you mean by '...easy to compile...' How do you compile this? I'll have to read up on it. Get that checksum bruh. I remember trying to use Slackware and for me that was a lot of work. Edit: Oh I see at this time it is limited to three physical machines. Interesting on the Pi 3 part. I wonder if I could try it in Virtual box. But why try it in the first place?

jjuel 10y ago
Not often someone says lean and VS Code in the same statement.
- deno 10y ago
  It’s not very fast, but it’s surprisingly easy on the resources, especially memory. Compare using VS Code w/ Typescript Language Service to any type of dev stack that includes the word “Scala.”
  - jorvi 10y ago
    > It’s not very fast, but it’s surprisingly easy on the resources, especially memory. Open VS Code and then Sublime and be amazed. Atom and VS Code can never be 'easy on the memory' because they have to load an entire Electron instance just to idle.
    - RaleyField 10y ago
      > pen VS Code and then Sublime and be amazed. At what? Using 5% more total resources? Great tradeoff!
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]

remir 10y ago

The modular approach seems interesting. Call by meaning?

socmag 10y ago

Yes I'm quite excited as well. Building user land OS's is a fascinating (if not new) idea that I really love to tinker with a myself. It really would be nice if they can pull it off. Read through what I could find of the IPC code a while back. Currently it seems workable but a bit "baroque", then again if, as you say, it is working inside Chrome, I guess it is battle tested. Messaging has always and still is the future for very loosely coupled systems, and driving it all the way down would be really great. Been following this for a while and can't wait to give it a whirl. Plus everyone likes to root for shiny new OS design projects.

socmag 10y ago

dkarapetyan 10y ago

Oh they're using Dart. That's really cool. Dart is surprisingly pleasant to work with.

combatentropy 10y ago

> They aren't writing a new OS, > at least, not in the complete sense. Neither was Linux. It was based on Unix. Neither was Unix. "The success of UNIX lies not so much in new inventions but rather in the full exploitation of a carefully selected set of fertile ideas . . . " --- Dennis M. Ritchie and Ken Thompson, "The UNIX TimeSharing System"

Wing0 10y ago
Maybe Google got tired of "System D" trying to take too much control ...LOL! OR it could be a UEFI experiment... "This project contains some experiments in software that runs on UEFI firmware for the purpose of exploring UEFI development and bootloader development." -https://github.com/fuchsia-mirror/magenta/blob/master/bootloader/README.txt https://github.com/fuchsia-mirror/magenta/blob/master/bootlo...

throwaway91111 10y ago

"The little kernel" appears to be a popcorn brand FWIW.