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Verizon announces plans to install a download-tracking app on its Android phones
- rhino369 10y agoSpyware on my google phone! Why I never!
- dboreham 10y agoThey probably won't now ;)
- tbrock 10y agoGooglers of hacker news: stop allowing this.
- alphonsegaston 10y agoGoogle lobbied against the FTC rule change that blocked this under Obama, so I think it's far past time we believe them to be acting benevolently on our behalf. It's sad how things have evolved and how many smart, talented people have been swept up in this. But we have to organize and act outside the context of corporate appeals if we want to resist this kind of stuff.
- JustSomeNobody 10y agoGood luck with that.
- londons_explore 10y agoGoogle has less power than you might imagine here... Only "desirable" phones can set rules about what the carrier can and cannot do. Today, thats the iPhone only. Unless customers will leave the network if it does not stock a particular model of phone, then the network can insist the phone manufacturer install crapware, and until the manufacturer agrees, that model won't be sold.
- UncleMeat 10y agoAndroid is (sortof) open source and anybody can install an app. What could Google do to stop this?
- zpr 10y agoCan you hear me now? - Yes.
- JustSomeNobody 10y agoAren't their protections in place for advertising and children? Parents buy phones for their children, so will parents be able to turn this off for them? Verizon has NO business tracking children.
- ziszis 10y agoVerizon's plan when buying AOL [0] wasn't to become a media company, but to become a leader in ad tech. The way to lead in ad tech is to control data. Technology alone is not a moat. Verizon has made several attempts at unlocking the carrier data including the short-lived header injection [1]. Phone data is the holy grail of data (location, voice conversations, web browsing, apps, address, and potentially purchase history in the future) etc. Lets see if they have a winner this time [0] http://fortune.com/2015/06/24/verizon-gains-aol/ http://fortune.com/2015/06/24/verizon-gains-aol/ [1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/11/verizon-x-uidh https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/11/verizon-x-uidh
- teaneedz 10y agoYep. The reason why we are in this mess and attack on Internet privacy is because of Ad Tech. We need to get developers to stop supporting ad tech. The stigma of working in ad tech needs to result in enough stink on one's employment history that it's not worth the hassle.
- philipov 10y agoStigmatizing one's employment history only impacts people who are trying to switch from advertising to a different industry. This means it has the effect of locking employees into staying in advertising. I understand that the logic goes that people will avoid going into advertising in the first place if it limits their employment choices, but that assumes there isn't enough work to stay in advertising. If advertising is already a profitable career path, switching industries later is not a significant consideration now, and your proposal actually makes it easier for advertisers to hold onto talent. We should be encouraging people to get out of advertising, not stigmatizing it.
- teaneedz 10y agoPerhaps you're right - though Flash developers had to adjust. Ad tech really needs to go.
- swiley 10y agoWhen people say it's no big deal that Android is hard fot the user to compile, control, and modify, remember this.
- mtgx 10y agoIronically, this is mainly happening because Android is so "open" (to carriers and OEMs). Android's openness was never intended to be for users (if we're talking licenses and such, not feature-wise, which is just a design decision Google makes, like whether or not to have more advanced camera menus, and so on). It's hard to say whether Google would sell everyone's Android's data anyway, if it had 100% control over Android, but I imagine it wouldn't let carriers or OEMs add whatever tracking apps they wanted on the devices.
- hprotagonist 10y agofor now, i am nice and cozy in my iOS walled garden. The advantages of doing business with hardware companies is that it's much more clear that i'm paying them scads of money for a handset, instead of any other financial transaction.
- gcb0 10y agosurprise surprise. apple also is an advertising company. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205223 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205223
- hprotagonist 10y agoLimit Ad Tracking: enabled.
- gcb0 10y agoGoogle has the same option. good luck with that.
- ocdtrekkie 10y agoApple has an advertising service, yes. But Apple's revenue primarily comes from hardware. Apple is ergo, a "hardware company" that has additional services. Whereas over 90% of Google's revenue comes from ads, Google is an "advertising company" that also sometimes makes software. (Microsoft, by this definition, is a "software company".) This is key because companies are going to make decisions based on what keeps them in business. Apple would place it's hardware sales over it's ad business in a heartbeat, whereas Google would abandon Android before it would give up on ads, because that's it's entire business. My hope is that companies that don't place advertising as a core part of their business can be convinced that there is a market in privacy-oriented products, and that competing on advertising isn't worth it.
- gcb0 10y agothe executive driving ad revenue has the same problems and opportunities as the people driving ad revenue at Google or Facebook. convince yourself all you want of your fantasy, in the end each business unit has their own rules. and jobs is not the anymore.
- jaredandrews 10y agoVerizon is the only cell company that has coverage in my home town in central Massachusetts. Thus I have used them all my life. I recently had my first "positive" customer service with experience with Verizon switching to their unlimited plan. My bill dropped significantly. ($120 base -> $80 but really $200 -> $80 because I always go over on data) I just noticed that I have a "phone upgrade" waiting as well. I am an Android dev and typically just buy unlocked phones when I need them and switch SIM cards. This sort of shit is why. Even as it is, Verizon branded phones are filled with crapware you can't delete. It sucks knowing that thru my monthly bill that I am subsidizing a "phone upgrade" program that I am never going to take advantage of due to the way Verizon molests Android before giving you the phone.
- ourmandave 10y agoVerizon is very big in my town, but I pay $35/month for less-than-wonderful Virgin Mobile. Can't get a signal in the office but it's not worth +$85/month more to me.
- beamatronic 10y agoPerhaps you can convince your employer to cover/expense your cell phone, as it is necessary for you to perform your job. If they disagree, completely stop using a personal cell phone, and then watch how fast they provide you with one.
- sushid 10y agoSeems a little vindictive to me. How about suggesting them to add a cell signal booster for his carrier at the office?
- moltenbobcat 10y agoSurely they are going to be loading it using Carrier Configuration tied to the sim card... As soon as you put a verizon sim card into your unlocked non verizon phone it installed a bunch of helper apps. https://source.android.com/devices/tech/config/carrier.html https://source.android.com/devices/tech/config/carrier.html
- tabeth 10y agoIs this really that different from Verizon phones having Google services enabled by default (if that's even true -- I don't use Verizon). Why is Verizon spying on you any worse, or better than Google or Facebook? No one should spy on you. Period.
- Vermeulen 10y agoBy using Google's free services you agree to giving them data - that's not how customers want to use an ISP. Google is a company that relies on trust. If I can't trust them with my data their business will seriously suffer. Verizon in no way cares about users trusting them, it's not in their business model. It needs to be a choice what companies I trust with my data
- zepto 10y agoThis is false. A lack of trust will not hurt google one bit since there is no meaningful competition for their search engine and the vast majority of their revenue comes from search ads. Edit: This may be an unpopular conclusion but it based on facts. https://www.cnet.com/news/people-trust-nsa-more-than-google-survey-says/ https://www.cnet.com/news/people-trust-nsa-more-than-google-...
- tabeth 10y agoIt's very unlikely that Verizon's business will suffer, given their membership in the internet oligopoly [1]. Also, in regards to your other point -- what's stopping Verizon from just changing their business model? The fact Google offers free services is irrelevant. Verizon could do this and "offer" faster internet, claiming this tracking is what enables everyone to have faster internet for "free." There's a cost to everything -- including giving away your information. If there was no cost, then Google and company wouldn't want it. The fact that they're able to make money from it implies there's value, and if you're giving away value, it must be costing you. It's just not dollars. I still think you shouldn't let anyone spy on you, free or not. What Verizon is doing is just the same as them raising the price of their service, except worse, because once they have your data the returns on it will only compound. [1] http://www.verizon.com/about/news/dispelling-the-myth-of-a-terminating-access-monopoly http://www.verizon.com/about/news/dispelling-the-myth-of-a-t...
- kylehotchkiss 10y agoNot trying to be an Apple fanboy here, but at least apple can generate revenue without resorting to something this low. Guess they gotta make sure Mr. McAdam can earn his $18,000,000 check.
- cdurth 10y agoWhat does apple have to do with this?
- ocdtrekkie 10y agoPresumably that since Apple directly controls it's software updates, that this sort of thing doesn't occur on their platform.
- chrisper 10y agoWell, if you buy an unlocked phone, then it won't happen to you either. That's why I bought the Pixel from the Google Store and not through a carrier.
- ocdtrekkie 10y agoAre you sure? It seems like Android 6.0 and up has features to allow carriers to deploy code to devices with their SIM cards: https://source.android.com/devices/tech/config/carrier.html https://source.android.com/devices/tech/config/carrier.html I am honestly unsure of the limits on this feature.
- chrisper 10y agoIt seems it just provides regular configuration stuff required for certain things. I guess they made this so that people get a good OOB experience when replacing sim cards etc.
- matt_wulfeck 10y agoThey fought hard to create a platform where this type of thing doesn't/can't happen.
- ourmandave 10y agoWell at least they're up front about it instead of hiding it behind a terms of service or whatever. Doesn't make it right though.
- danepowell 10y agoCan anyone speculate what will happen if I'm using an unlocked Google device (Nexus 5X) on Verizon? Will the new app be force-installed somehow? And can it be removed?
- mtreis86 10y agoNot sure, but I do know for sure that the firmware to the radio is a proprietary blob that we, as users, have 'no rights' to. Meaning, they could already be doing this without notifying anyone, and we have no way to confirm beyond packet capture and analysis or reverse engineering. I find it hard to believe there is no market for an open-firmware phone.
- Paul-ish 10y agoSomeone else said elsewhere* >Surely they are going to be loading it using Carrier Configuration tied to the sim card... As soon as you put a verizon sim card into your unlocked non verizon phone it installed a bunch of helper apps. >https://source.android.com/devices/tech/config/carrier.html https://source.android.com/devices/tech/config/carrier.html [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14004304 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14004304
- noxToken 10y agoIs this truly just an app or is it functionality tied to base OS configuration? If its the former, I should be able to uninstall via root like all the other bloatware crap, correct?
- bichiliad 10y agoIf it is the former, don't forget that having a rooted phone likely puts you in the minority. Most people don't have the patience or confidence in their technical abilities to root their phones.
- noxToken 10y agoI understand that. I was just wondering if anything could be done about it.
- chrisper 10y agoThere is also the fact that the Verizon version of the Pixel is not rootable as they locked down the bootloader.
- i_cant_speel 10y agoSame with the Galaxy S7.
- Taek 10y agoBetween the Google play store, Android's general insecurity, and now cell carriers actively pushing spyware, what alternatives exist? And please don't say iOS. It's closed source, which means we really don't know what's going on under the hood. We may trust it today, but one secret court order + an overnight update is all we need to lose everything with iOS. Apple execs may not even be made aware of such an update if the order was delivered to the engineers directly. What are my options such that I'll actually feel comfortable when I sleep at night? My phone knows everything. All my emails (which can typically be used to get into everything else), all my contacts, all my calendar events, where I go every day, and I'm even paranoid that it records all of my conversations. This isn't schizophrenia, we know that devices record people's conversations without their knowledge. A phone doing the same is just one step away. So what can I do? How can I get some sanity and security around my mobile life? Would be a great step to have a phone that: + Fully open source. (Sorry Android you don't count) + Hardware switch for mic + Hardware switch for location services Or at least a phone that is beginning to move in that direction? Should I just stop using my phone?
- themihai 10y agoThere is Ubuntu Phone. There were also several devices. Here is the source for one of them: https://github.com/bq/aquaris-E4.5 https://github.com/bq/aquaris-E4.5
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- Datenstrom 10y agoBeen watching CopperheadOS for a while, the best option as far as I know. I will be getting my next phone directly from them to support development. https://copperhead.co/android/ https://copperhead.co/android/
- pgrote 10y agoI am ignorant of how this connects to a carrier. Will it work on Verizon's network? Can Verizon install something once it is connected?
- ISL 10y agoDisclaimer: I own Tucows shares. Ting, a MVNO and ISP, views customer privacy as an important value. While Ting may not be able to prevent their upstream mobile providers from bundling such an app, everything I've seen from the company would lead me to believe that Ting would fight it as best it can on principle. https://ting.com/blog/congress-votes-repeal-broadband-privacy-rules/ https://ting.com/blog/congress-votes-repeal-broadband-privac... Also, Ting voice and SMS roam on the Verizon network. Less expensive, too.
- exabrial 10y agoThe link says this is related to the repeal of the FCC ruling, I fail to see that connection, however. What in the repealed rules prevented them from installing spyware on your phone? They already seemed to have the ability to do that.
- zelos 10y agoIncreasingly in the U.K. I've noticed it's significantly cheaper to buy an unlocked phone and get a SIM only plan. Surely it's a bad idea for networks to make their own phone even less attractive?
- cwyers 10y ago"UPDATE: We have received additional information from Verizon and based on that information we are withdrawing this post while we investigate further. Here is the statement from Kelly Crummey, Director of Corporate Communications of Verizon: 'As we said earlier this week, we are testing AppFlash to make app discovery better for consumers. The test is on a single phone – LG K20 V – and you have to opt-in to use the app. Or, you can easily disable the app. Nobody is required to use it. Verizon is committed to your privacy. Visit www.verizon.com/about/privacy to view our Privacy Policy.'"
- devnullmonkey 10y agoI rang up Verizon Wireless this morning and asked to speak with a supervisor. I use a Google Pixel. I told the woman that came on the line my fear of AppFlash not only ruining the security of my mobile phone, but molesting the beauty that is pure Google Android. At first the lady was perturbed that I called, but after calmly explaining to her what was at stake, she actually seemed to agree with me it was a problem. I pray she gets to keep her job, considering she agreed with me on a recorded line. The takeaway from her is that Verizon does not plan on soiling Google Pixel devices due to their deal with Google to keep the ecosystem clean and allow Google alone to push software updates to the Pixel line. I'm praying this is the real story and I won't come to learn my phone has been infected with spyware.
- exabrial 10y agoUPDATED: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/eff-withdraws-verizon-spyware-claims/ar-BBz7Qmh http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/eff-withdraws-veriz...