5 ms·

Community seems to be uncommon in the age of individualism. You've just identified one of the many things that I believe Canadians see as a value that distingu

by zzalpha 10y ago

Community seems to be uncommon in the age of individualism. You've just identified one of the many things that I believe Canadians see as a value that distinguishes us from our friends to the south. Whether that's fair or not is something else entirely. But I think it's true that, generally speaking, Americans see individualism as one of their defining values, which directly informs a whole host of other derived values (belief in the power of capitalism, distrust of government, etc). My experience (for what it's worth) is that Canadians, on average, may value those things, but I don't believe they are seen as a defining element of the Canadian identity.

eigenvector 10y ago
I wouldn't draw such a conclusion just from this article. One of the things it highlighted, and that I feel as well as a Canadian, is that to a certain extent the sponsors acted in ways that benefited themselves over the refugees. Like the lady who wouldn't show them how to use the bus, because she's wealthy and doesn't ride buses. Or when the sponsors refused to let the kids' parents work through a simple issue like the school bus not showing up, and instead injected themselves into situations they didn't belong in. That was selfish and self-aggrandizing. People are people. I think there are many Americans who would be happy to sponsor a refugee family (and indeed many have donated towards sponsorship costs for Canadians), but their government doesn't let them. Likewise there are a lot of Canadians that are virulently opposed to refugees coming here and getting government assistance after their private sponsorship assistance runs out. In fact our own government put the brakes on the sponsorship program early this year.
- zzalpha 10y ago
  Or when the sponsors refused to let the kids' parents work through a simple issue like the school bus not showing up, and instead injected themselves into situations they didn't belong in. That was selfish and self-aggrandizing. I think that's incredibly unfair and I'm frankly astonished you'd interpret their actions that way. How many people step in when their loved one is failing because they care about them and want to help, and don't want them to be discouraged if things go poorly? That's exactly the dynamic at play, here. In fact the article goes out of its way to point that out. It's such a common human experience that I can't help but wonder if you're going out of your way to view their actions in a negative light. As for the rest, well, these are my own impressions based on my life as a Canadian, and my extensive exposure to American culture... take them with a hefty grain of salt. shrug
  - eigenvector 10y ago
    My comment is not intended to portray the sponsors as bad people. I am sure they want to help the refugees succeed in their new life. My intention is to demonstrate that this is not as simple as Canadian collectivism vs. American individualism. A strong dimension of this story is empty-nesters essentially adopting a new family, which is great, but then proceeding to treat them - although with the best intentions - in a somewhat condescending, parochial way, as if the adults of the family aren't grown people who've already survived a thousand times more hardship than the sponsors have ever known in their lives. I think the sponsors are good people. But I disagree that they're good in some kind of uniquely Canadian way. These are empty-nesters searching for a new family just like these ones right across the border in Buffalo or Bellingham or Burlington. Just look at overseas adoptions in the United States.
- yawaramin 10y ago
  You've misunderstood these people and why they're doing what they're doing. Here's a passage (from https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/12/world/americas/syria-refugees-arrive-in-canada.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/12/world/americas/syria-refu... ) that may clarify it for you: > Mr. Nunn, 65 and recently retired, said he was looking for “an indulgence” to mark the event. In Huntsville, an ad on a bulletin board for a motorboat caught his eye. Along with the boat ad, he also took a flyer from a refugee group. > After reading both on a flight to Florida, Mr. Nunn decided to make the donation rather than purchase the boat — even though it “looked pretty cool,” he said. > “A fancy trip, a car or boat, kind of diminish and memories fade,” said Mr. Nunn, who had never supported any refugee group. “This refugee effort will have effects that go on for generations. Where is the best value, where is the best return? I threw away the boat ad.” These are wealthy people looking for the most meaningful and impactful way to spend their time and money. It's not about self-aggrandisation and it's astonishing to me that someone could interpret it as such. By the way, about: > I think there are many Americans who would be happy to sponsor a refugee family (and indeed many have donated towards sponsorship costs for Canadians), but their government doesn't let them. Likewise there are a lot of Canadians that are virulently opposed to refugees coming here and getting government assistance after their private sponsorship assistance runs out. Well, back in 2015 when the Conservatives were in power in Canada and the Syrian crisis brought fresh horrors every day, it turned out that the Conservative government denied a lot of refugee applications, including that of Aylan Kurdi's family. Canadians said enough is enough and voted in someone who promised to bring in a lot more refugees--which he promptly did. Americans, in contrast, and with the full benefit of seeing the Canadian refugee situation, decided to go the other way. I think it's quite clear what message they sent.
  - Neliquat 10y ago
    My parents are weathy and retired. One of the many "Keeping up with the jonses" money expenditures are symbolic philantropic excersizes with dubious impact. This just seems like another. I am not sure if that goes with or against either of your points but seems relevant nonetheless.
    - wavefunction 10y ago
microcolonel 10y ago
Speak for yourself. I don't think hospitality is a broad Canadian value. Individual people in Canada are making the decision to host refugees, they are the kind of people who can do that and want to. I don't know how much you know about Americans, but as a Canadian I don't really see what you see, and it seems a bit condescending. Personally I think that it's cruel (even if the intentions are good) to play saviour for a few hundred thousand people while an entire nation suffers. We should be investing in their ability to sustain their own society, not placing their failed society's burdens on our own. On top of this, the enormous cultural incompatibility is already breeding flaming resentment in communities with many landed refugees. If we keep this up without thinking about how to do it right, we will get the worst possible outcomes.
- zzalpha 10y ago
  Speak for yourself. Hence use of phrases like "I believe" and "I think" and "My experience (for what it's worth)". Was that not disclaimer enough for you? I don't know how much you know about Americans, but as a Canadian I don't really see what you see, and it seems a bit condescending. Certainly not the intent, and I hope it didn't come across that way. I do think it's true that Canadians and Americans, as a whole, have an overlapping but different set of... rather than values, let's call them priorities. If making that claim and observing the differences is "condescending", I don't know what to tell you. Certainly I wasn't attempting to ascribe a judgement to those priorities. I was simply highlighting that I believe they're different, and that the "age of individualism" is not a universal experience. Of course, you're more than welcome to disagree with that, or disagree with the very concept of a national identity or commonly held set of priorities. Personally I think that it's cruel to play saviour for a few hundred thousand people while an entire nation suffers. We should be investing in their ability to sustain their own society Why not both? not placing their failed society's burdens on our own. What was that about being condescending?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
specialist 10y ago
Maybe think of the USA as schizophrenic. I was raised Presbyterian. We've always sponsored refugees, fed the hungry, did missionary work, etc. Young me just thought that's what Christians do. We certainly didn't talk or brag about it; that was very gauche. It wasn't until I was much older that I figured out my congregation was considered liberal. There are more liberal Christians than not. But we're not vocal or organized. So the fruitcakes have way more influence. -- http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/yazoo/unmarked.html http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/yazoo/unmarked.html "He who shouts the loudest Is the one who's in control We who never listen Are the ones who pay the toll"
- BuckRogers 10y ago
  Yup, I was raised Methodist.. I'm not practicing but I receive their email blasts[0] and quite enjoy them. I never knew the fruitcake wing of Christianity either. I wouldn't even call it liberal, just sensible or normal honestly. Almost everything has gotten that way. If you attend a "conservative" church or around those folks, it's pretty uncomfortable, bunch of intense loons. I'm not even sure how I got on that mailing list but I believe it's the Faith in Action list if any Methodists out there are interested in reconnecting or at least hearing what's going on in the community.[1] [0]http://action.umc-gbcs.org/blastContent.jsp http://action.umc-gbcs.org/blastContent.jsp [1]https://umc-gbcs.org/faith-in-action https://umc-gbcs.org/faith-in-action
  - Brendinooo 10y ago
    Do "fruitcake" and "intense loons" pass as "civil...things you [would] say in a face-to-face conversation" these days?
- barry-cotter 10y ago
  > I was raised Presbyterian. We've always sponsored refugees, fed the hungry, did missionary work, etc. Young me just thought that's what Christians do. We certainly didn't talk or brag about it; that was very gauche. It wasn't until I was much older that I figured out my congregation was considered liberal. I would not consider the Mormons socially liberal but they do plenty in that vein https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-28/how-utah-keeps-the-american-dream-alive https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-28/how-utah-... Active, rather than nominal Christians do plenty of that kind of stuff, whether they're conservative or liberal denominations. In the long run the liberal denominations seem unlikely to be relevant. Liberal so-called mainstream Protestant groups have been bleeding members since the 80's at the latest.
mikekchar 10y ago
Canada is a large and diverse country. It also lives with the imposing cultural presence of the US. Growing up in Canada, I never got the impression of a defined Canadian identity except for one thing: We are not Americans. For me, nothing demonstrates that more than Canadian rejection of the "cultural melting pot" of the US in favour of "multiculturalism". I went to school in the age where we still sang God Save the Queen and recited the Lord's Prayer every morning, so it's going a fair ways back, but I remember actually being taught multiculturalism in school (which, as the perversity of this sentence shows, was perhaps an academic exercise). I distinctly remember being told over and over again: We are not American. We do not value a society with a single culture that absorbs other cultures. We value a society of many cultures that live together in harmony. I think you will see a lot of variation wrt things like individualism in Canadian culture. For example, it is probably a strongly held belief in places like Alberta. But maybe in the small cities in Quebec or on the east coast, you're going to get a lot more responsibility for community. The string that holds it together, though, is the acceptance for a variety of insular cultures. As other posters have mention, Canada limits immigration. I suspect that it would run into very similar issues to what the Australians have had to deal with in the past 30 years if it didn't. I always find it strange that my adopted home of Japan is probably one of the easiest countries in the world to emigrate to, but because of it's very strong mono-culture, immigrants generally do not stay. In spite of my upbringing, I enjoy living in a mono-culture -- a very embarrassing admission, and I invite all true Canadians to come and spit on me ;-)
- Sukotto 10y ago
  You don't have public contact info in your profile so I'll post here :) I don't want to spit on you (ew), but am interested in meeting some of my fellow Canadians living here in Japan. If you (or any other Canadians reading this) are in Tokyo and interested in comparing notes over coffee, please drop me a line (email in profile).
  - mikekchar 10y ago
    Hey. I'm available at my username @ gmail. I really should put that in my profile. I'm living in rural Shizuoka prefecture, and don't make it to Tokyo very often, but I'd be happy to meet up sometime.
pryelluw 10y ago
Two years ago I met a lady at downtown disney orlando. She was Canadian and super nice. Sat next to us in a restaurant. We had a wonderful conversation. The lady finished before us and invited me to visit her in Canada. Gave me her addres and phone number. I was amazed. She didn't seem crazy or anything. Just genuinely nice. Her whole family was like that. Made me want to move to Canada. If it just were a little bit warmer...
- minsight 10y ago
  Give it a few years...
plandis 10y ago
Americans cant have empathy for refugees and a sense of community? Really?

by zzalpha 10y ago

eigenvector 10y ago

I wouldn't draw such a conclusion just from this article. One of the things it highlighted, and that I feel as well as a Canadian, is that to a certain extent the sponsors acted in ways that benefited themselves over the refugees. Like the lady who wouldn't show them how to use the bus, because she's wealthy and doesn't ride buses. Or when the sponsors refused to let the kids' parents work through a simple issue like the school bus not showing up, and instead injected themselves into situations they didn't belong in. That was selfish and self-aggrandizing. People are people. I think there are many Americans who would be happy to sponsor a refugee family (and indeed many have donated towards sponsorship costs for Canadians), but their government doesn't let them. Likewise there are a lot of Canadians that are virulently opposed to refugees coming here and getting government assistance after their private sponsorship assistance runs out. In fact our own government put the brakes on the sponsorship program early this year.

zzalpha 10y ago
Or when the sponsors refused to let the kids' parents work through a simple issue like the school bus not showing up, and instead injected themselves into situations they didn't belong in. That was selfish and self-aggrandizing. I think that's incredibly unfair and I'm frankly astonished you'd interpret their actions that way. How many people step in when their loved one is failing because they care about them and want to help, and don't want them to be discouraged if things go poorly? That's exactly the dynamic at play, here. In fact the article goes out of its way to point that out. It's such a common human experience that I can't help but wonder if you're going out of your way to view their actions in a negative light. As for the rest, well, these are my own impressions based on my life as a Canadian, and my extensive exposure to American culture... take them with a hefty grain of salt. shrug
- eigenvector 10y ago
  My comment is not intended to portray the sponsors as bad people. I am sure they want to help the refugees succeed in their new life. My intention is to demonstrate that this is not as simple as Canadian collectivism vs. American individualism. A strong dimension of this story is empty-nesters essentially adopting a new family, which is great, but then proceeding to treat them - although with the best intentions - in a somewhat condescending, parochial way, as if the adults of the family aren't grown people who've already survived a thousand times more hardship than the sponsors have ever known in their lives. I think the sponsors are good people. But I disagree that they're good in some kind of uniquely Canadian way. These are empty-nesters searching for a new family just like these ones right across the border in Buffalo or Bellingham or Burlington. Just look at overseas adoptions in the United States.
yawaramin 10y ago
You've misunderstood these people and why they're doing what they're doing. Here's a passage (from https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/12/world/americas/syria-refugees-arrive-in-canada.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/12/world/americas/syria-refu... ) that may clarify it for you: > Mr. Nunn, 65 and recently retired, said he was looking for “an indulgence” to mark the event. In Huntsville, an ad on a bulletin board for a motorboat caught his eye. Along with the boat ad, he also took a flyer from a refugee group. > After reading both on a flight to Florida, Mr. Nunn decided to make the donation rather than purchase the boat — even though it “looked pretty cool,” he said. > “A fancy trip, a car or boat, kind of diminish and memories fade,” said Mr. Nunn, who had never supported any refugee group. “This refugee effort will have effects that go on for generations. Where is the best value, where is the best return? I threw away the boat ad.” These are wealthy people looking for the most meaningful and impactful way to spend their time and money. It's not about self-aggrandisation and it's astonishing to me that someone could interpret it as such. By the way, about: > I think there are many Americans who would be happy to sponsor a refugee family (and indeed many have donated towards sponsorship costs for Canadians), but their government doesn't let them. Likewise there are a lot of Canadians that are virulently opposed to refugees coming here and getting government assistance after their private sponsorship assistance runs out. Well, back in 2015 when the Conservatives were in power in Canada and the Syrian crisis brought fresh horrors every day, it turned out that the Conservative government denied a lot of refugee applications, including that of Aylan Kurdi's family. Canadians said enough is enough and voted in someone who promised to bring in a lot more refugees--which he promptly did. Americans, in contrast, and with the full benefit of seeing the Canadian refugee situation, decided to go the other way. I think it's quite clear what message they sent.
- Neliquat 10y ago
  My parents are weathy and retired. One of the many "Keeping up with the jonses" money expenditures are symbolic philantropic excersizes with dubious impact. This just seems like another. I am not sure if that goes with or against either of your points but seems relevant nonetheless.
  - wavefunction 10y ago

microcolonel 10y ago

Speak for yourself. I don't think hospitality is a broad Canadian value. Individual people in Canada are making the decision to host refugees, they are the kind of people who can do that and want to. I don't know how much you know about Americans, but as a Canadian I don't really see what you see, and it seems a bit condescending. Personally I think that it's cruel (even if the intentions are good) to play saviour for a few hundred thousand people while an entire nation suffers. We should be investing in their ability to sustain their own society, not placing their failed society's burdens on our own. On top of this, the enormous cultural incompatibility is already breeding flaming resentment in communities with many landed refugees. If we keep this up without thinking about how to do it right, we will get the worst possible outcomes.

zzalpha 10y ago
Speak for yourself. Hence use of phrases like "I believe" and "I think" and "My experience (for what it's worth)". Was that not disclaimer enough for you? I don't know how much you know about Americans, but as a Canadian I don't really see what you see, and it seems a bit condescending. Certainly not the intent, and I hope it didn't come across that way. I do think it's true that Canadians and Americans, as a whole, have an overlapping but different set of... rather than values, let's call them priorities. If making that claim and observing the differences is "condescending", I don't know what to tell you. Certainly I wasn't attempting to ascribe a judgement to those priorities. I was simply highlighting that I believe they're different, and that the "age of individualism" is not a universal experience. Of course, you're more than welcome to disagree with that, or disagree with the very concept of a national identity or commonly held set of priorities. Personally I think that it's cruel to play saviour for a few hundred thousand people while an entire nation suffers. We should be investing in their ability to sustain their own society Why not both? not placing their failed society's burdens on our own. What was that about being condescending?
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

specialist 10y ago

Maybe think of the USA as schizophrenic. I was raised Presbyterian. We've always sponsored refugees, fed the hungry, did missionary work, etc. Young me just thought that's what Christians do. We certainly didn't talk or brag about it; that was very gauche. It wasn't until I was much older that I figured out my congregation was considered liberal. There are more liberal Christians than not. But we're not vocal or organized. So the fruitcakes have way more influence. -- http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/yazoo/unmarked.html http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/yazoo/unmarked.html "He who shouts the loudest Is the one who's in control We who never listen Are the ones who pay the toll"

BuckRogers 10y ago
Yup, I was raised Methodist.. I'm not practicing but I receive their email blasts[0] and quite enjoy them. I never knew the fruitcake wing of Christianity either. I wouldn't even call it liberal, just sensible or normal honestly. Almost everything has gotten that way. If you attend a "conservative" church or around those folks, it's pretty uncomfortable, bunch of intense loons. I'm not even sure how I got on that mailing list but I believe it's the Faith in Action list if any Methodists out there are interested in reconnecting or at least hearing what's going on in the community.[1] [0]http://action.umc-gbcs.org/blastContent.jsp http://action.umc-gbcs.org/blastContent.jsp [1]https://umc-gbcs.org/faith-in-action https://umc-gbcs.org/faith-in-action
- Brendinooo 10y ago
  Do "fruitcake" and "intense loons" pass as "civil...things you [would] say in a face-to-face conversation" these days?
barry-cotter 10y ago
> I was raised Presbyterian. We've always sponsored refugees, fed the hungry, did missionary work, etc. Young me just thought that's what Christians do. We certainly didn't talk or brag about it; that was very gauche. It wasn't until I was much older that I figured out my congregation was considered liberal. I would not consider the Mormons socially liberal but they do plenty in that vein https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-28/how-utah-keeps-the-american-dream-alive https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-28/how-utah-... Active, rather than nominal Christians do plenty of that kind of stuff, whether they're conservative or liberal denominations. In the long run the liberal denominations seem unlikely to be relevant. Liberal so-called mainstream Protestant groups have been bleeding members since the 80's at the latest.

mikekchar 10y ago

Canada is a large and diverse country. It also lives with the imposing cultural presence of the US. Growing up in Canada, I never got the impression of a defined Canadian identity except for one thing: We are not Americans. For me, nothing demonstrates that more than Canadian rejection of the "cultural melting pot" of the US in favour of "multiculturalism". I went to school in the age where we still sang God Save the Queen and recited the Lord's Prayer every morning, so it's going a fair ways back, but I remember actually being taught multiculturalism in school (which, as the perversity of this sentence shows, was perhaps an academic exercise). I distinctly remember being told over and over again: We are not American. We do not value a society with a single culture that absorbs other cultures. We value a society of many cultures that live together in harmony. I think you will see a lot of variation wrt things like individualism in Canadian culture. For example, it is probably a strongly held belief in places like Alberta. But maybe in the small cities in Quebec or on the east coast, you're going to get a lot more responsibility for community. The string that holds it together, though, is the acceptance for a variety of insular cultures. As other posters have mention, Canada limits immigration. I suspect that it would run into very similar issues to what the Australians have had to deal with in the past 30 years if it didn't. I always find it strange that my adopted home of Japan is probably one of the easiest countries in the world to emigrate to, but because of it's very strong mono-culture, immigrants generally do not stay. In spite of my upbringing, I enjoy living in a mono-culture -- a very embarrassing admission, and I invite all true Canadians to come and spit on me ;-)

Sukotto 10y ago
You don't have public contact info in your profile so I'll post here :) I don't want to spit on you (ew), but am interested in meeting some of my fellow Canadians living here in Japan. If you (or any other Canadians reading this) are in Tokyo and interested in comparing notes over coffee, please drop me a line (email in profile).
- mikekchar 10y ago
  Hey. I'm available at my username @ gmail. I really should put that in my profile. I'm living in rural Shizuoka prefecture, and don't make it to Tokyo very often, but I'd be happy to meet up sometime.

pryelluw 10y ago

Two years ago I met a lady at downtown disney orlando. She was Canadian and super nice. Sat next to us in a restaurant. We had a wonderful conversation. The lady finished before us and invited me to visit her in Canada. Gave me her addres and phone number. I was amazed. She didn't seem crazy or anything. Just genuinely nice. Her whole family was like that. Made me want to move to Canada. If it just were a little bit warmer...

minsight 10y ago
Give it a few years...

plandis 10y ago

Americans cant have empathy for refugees and a sense of community? Really?