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How is that a trend, and not just the reality this country was founded on? How many of the original people here were either indentured, or just enslaved? We jus

by M_Grey 10y ago

How is that a trend, and not just the reality this country was founded on? How many of the original people here were either indentured, or just enslaved? We just keep shuffling the verbiage and the optics every few decades while refining the overall system. Slavery in prisons, rotating jail terms for people who can't pay fines for arbitrary crap, no education, no hope, and no voice.

talmand 10y ago
I wouldn't say the country was "founded" on such things. Yes, they were interwoven into the fabric of the country at the time; but the country was also created in a way that opened the door to remove those things. As for your last sentence; that's the inevitable outcome of almost all civilizations which is why revolutions happen at a somewhat steady rate.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  It was literally founded on those things, in the sense that the original inhabitants were about 50% indentured and they built the damned place. Saying that the US wasn't founded on these realities is like saying the AU wasn't founded as a prison colony.
  - narrowrail 10y ago
    As someone who is part Cherokee (on the Dawes' Rolls), what do you mean by 'original inhabitants'?
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      In context, what do you think? Did your people found the US, or practice indentured servitude and slavery? As I understand it you were part of a very different and much older nation that predated the current one. Again, as I understand the people I'm describing came by and decided to take it from you, founding a new one its place. I'm not endorsing that, and my ancestry is utterly unrelated to either group's history.
      - talmand 10y ago
        Some Native Americans did, in fact, have and sold slaves.
  - talmand 10y ago
    So, by your logic, anything happening during a country's founding we deem today as bad means that country was founded on those bad things. Then every single country on Earth in all of human history was founded on bad things. That's silly logic.
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      No, that isn't my logic and isn't what I said. In the case of the US it's been a continuous legacy that began with indentured servitude and slavery, continued through slavery and sharecropping, and now exists today in various forms including in prisons. If you can't or won't argue the points I'm actually making, don't try to inject your own version of what you think I might be saying.
      - talmand 10y ago
        Well, it is your logic, you should own it. I am arguing the points you are making, I disagree with your claim that bad things happening during the formation of a country is the basis of that country. You are the one using generalized statements to label an entire nation of people as evil. If you want to say some, I repeat some, of the founders had unfortunate attitudes toward slavery then that's fine. Some of them did, some of them did not. But you are heavily insinuating that everyone, EVERYONE, at the time of the formation of the country was in favor of indentured servitude and slavery. Which is simply not true. I would assume the indentured servants and slaves who later became citizens would not be in agreement with such things. Although, I'm willing to bet we could find examples of ones that were. Did those individual points happen in the US throughout its history? Yes they did, I have no problem agreeing to that. But since you seem to suggest that the US is a bad country due to that history then by standard logic we must dictate that every other country that have had similar bad things in its history must equally be bad. Which is quite likely every single country this planet has ever had throughout human history. You are choosing to ignore the good to point out the bad and then blame everyone for it, whether they are responsible or not. That is silly logic. Just because a country has bad moments in its history does not mean that is the basis and fabric of that country.
- aanm1988 10y ago
  It required a civil war to remove slavery. The country was not built to have war as the mechanism for change.
  - talmand 10y ago
    The civil war was not required to remove slavery, it could easily have been removed via the law; which it was. The war was the unfortunate result of the lawful attempts to remove slavery from the country. If the war had not happened, the Southern states would have left the country to form their own with slavery and the remaining US states would have continued making slavery illegal. The war was partly to keep the Union together. But it's a complicated thing that doesn't have just one simplified element to it.

by M_Grey 10y ago

talmand 10y ago

I wouldn't say the country was "founded" on such things. Yes, they were interwoven into the fabric of the country at the time; but the country was also created in a way that opened the door to remove those things. As for your last sentence; that's the inevitable outcome of almost all civilizations which is why revolutions happen at a somewhat steady rate.

M_Grey 10y ago
It was literally founded on those things, in the sense that the original inhabitants were about 50% indentured and they built the damned place. Saying that the US wasn't founded on these realities is like saying the AU wasn't founded as a prison colony.
- narrowrail 10y ago
  As someone who is part Cherokee (on the Dawes' Rolls), what do you mean by 'original inhabitants'?
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    In context, what do you think? Did your people found the US, or practice indentured servitude and slavery? As I understand it you were part of a very different and much older nation that predated the current one. Again, as I understand the people I'm describing came by and decided to take it from you, founding a new one its place. I'm not endorsing that, and my ancestry is utterly unrelated to either group's history.
    - talmand 10y ago
      Some Native Americans did, in fact, have and sold slaves.
- talmand 10y ago
  So, by your logic, anything happening during a country's founding we deem today as bad means that country was founded on those bad things. Then every single country on Earth in all of human history was founded on bad things. That's silly logic.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    No, that isn't my logic and isn't what I said. In the case of the US it's been a continuous legacy that began with indentured servitude and slavery, continued through slavery and sharecropping, and now exists today in various forms including in prisons. If you can't or won't argue the points I'm actually making, don't try to inject your own version of what you think I might be saying.
    - talmand 10y ago
      Well, it is your logic, you should own it. I am arguing the points you are making, I disagree with your claim that bad things happening during the formation of a country is the basis of that country. You are the one using generalized statements to label an entire nation of people as evil. If you want to say some, I repeat some, of the founders had unfortunate attitudes toward slavery then that's fine. Some of them did, some of them did not. But you are heavily insinuating that everyone, EVERYONE, at the time of the formation of the country was in favor of indentured servitude and slavery. Which is simply not true. I would assume the indentured servants and slaves who later became citizens would not be in agreement with such things. Although, I'm willing to bet we could find examples of ones that were. Did those individual points happen in the US throughout its history? Yes they did, I have no problem agreeing to that. But since you seem to suggest that the US is a bad country due to that history then by standard logic we must dictate that every other country that have had similar bad things in its history must equally be bad. Which is quite likely every single country this planet has ever had throughout human history. You are choosing to ignore the good to point out the bad and then blame everyone for it, whether they are responsible or not. That is silly logic. Just because a country has bad moments in its history does not mean that is the basis and fabric of that country.
aanm1988 10y ago
It required a civil war to remove slavery. The country was not built to have war as the mechanism for change.
- talmand 10y ago
  The civil war was not required to remove slavery, it could easily have been removed via the law; which it was. The war was the unfortunate result of the lawful attempts to remove slavery from the country. If the war had not happened, the Southern states would have left the country to form their own with slavery and the remaining US states would have continued making slavery illegal. The war was partly to keep the Union together. But it's a complicated thing that doesn't have just one simplified element to it.