6 ms·

60 millibits is pretty small. (Pardon the joke, but while the "m" obviously means "M" from context, I really wish people -- especially computer engineers -- wo

by DavidSJ 10y ago

60 millibits is pretty small. (Pardon the joke, but while the "m" obviously means "M" from context, I really wish people -- especially computer engineers -- wouldn't say bits when they mean something eight times as large.)

jsmthrowaway 10y ago
And I really wish people wouldn't start this argument when it's clear what was meant from context. We can't all get our wishes. :)
saghm 10y ago
Since you said that the "m" is obvious from context, I'll compromise from now on and use "mB" exclusively
paulddraper 10y ago
Huh, and I thought mb was "make bucket", like aws s3 mb. http://docs.aws.amazon.com/cli/latest/reference/s3/mb.html http://docs.aws.amazon.com/cli/latest/reference/s3/mb.html
defined 10y ago
I think you have a good point. The whole reason for standards (like SI units) is so that people don't need to guess or interpret. I don't get why this was downvoted.
- kibwen 10y ago
  A bit isn't a divisible unit, so nobody is going to be confused as to whether "mb" stands for "millibits". As for the capitalization of "b", if we're going to be pedantic then we should say "Mo" for "megaoctets", since "byte" is, as far as IEEE standards are concerned, of ambiguous length. But I think we can trust people enough to not spend too long puzzling over whether "mb" means megabytes or megabits, just as we can trust them to assume that byte implies eight bits in this context.
  - rsync 10y ago
    "A bit isn't a divisible unit" What ? Sure it is. When you measure the information content (or, the entropy) of a message, you very frequently get non-integer numbers of bits per (character/unit/message/whatever). Written english, for instance, has 1.46 bits of information per character. Or 146 cb.
    - kev009 10y ago
      That is expressing a ratio. A more concrete example, .46 a person doesn't exist even if that ratio is useful for expressing statistics.
      - drdeca 10y ago
        I think "gaining half a bit of information" about something can correspond to stuff that lets you update your probability distribution about it? I'm not sure.
        kristjankalm 10y ago
        yes, but your gain is still an integer number. the non-integer ratio is just a statistic (gain per number of units).
        jamessb 10y ago
        Why is it an integer number? Entropy (in bits) is defined as - \sum_x (p(x) log_2 p(x)) There is no reason this has to be an integer, since probabilities are not restricted to being reciprocals of powers of 2. Consider also that you can simply use a different logarithm base to get a different unit (e.g. use the natural logarithm to obtain the entropy in nats). It would be bizarre if the arbitrary choice of 2 as the base gave a unit that was indivisible. I think this whole confusion comes down to the difference between a bit as a "unit of information in the sense of information theory" [divisible] and a bit as a "single physical one or zero" [not divisible]. The relationship between the two is that the entropy of a random variable is a lower bound on the average number of bits required to represent it.
- JCharante 10y ago
  You can downvote?
  - mercer 10y ago
    Yeah, when your karma is high enough. I don't know what the amount is that leads to downvote enlightenment though.
    - eric_h 10y ago
      I believe it is 1000.
      - falsedan 10y ago
        It's less than 1Mk (one megakarma).
        JetSpiegel 10y ago
        It's 1 kk (kilokarma).
        falsedan 10y ago
        It's also less than that, but more than 40 dak (decakarma)
      - joncrocks 10y ago
        It's around the 500 mark at the moment for comment downvoting I believe.
- ldev 10y ago
  Because we solve practical problems, and do not nit pick of what is technically correct. We are not drones and easily understand that in this context it's megabytes. Just look at all that "technically it's mebibytes bla bla bla" in replies. No one cares. Write some code. Or better - go outside.
  - tripzilch 10y ago
    space launches have crashed because of confusion over standard units. in that case it was confusion between metric and certain fantasy engineering units, but an error of 1000/1024 will cause troubles just as badly. so with that attitude maybe don't write that code, and better stay inside or a rocket might fall on your head. but for serious, that correction probably has taught more than 10 people the difference between uppercase B = bytes, lowercase b = bits, uppercase M = mega = 1 000 000, lowercase m = milli, MiB = mebibyte = 1024 x 1024 bytes = 1 048 576 bytes, or at least made them aware of the important fact there is a difference. while your pedantry about nitpicking has taught nobody anything except to always be alert cause there's people like you that like to offload mental ballast and use wrong units because they insist their errors can be inferred and corrected from context... which is an important lesson also, but as a warning, not to defend the behaviour.
    - defined 10y ago
      This. Thank you.
- dom0 10y ago
  Insightful comment which took me 2700 mS to write.

by DavidSJ 10y ago

jsmthrowaway 10y ago

And I really wish people wouldn't start this argument when it's clear what was meant from context. We can't all get our wishes. :)

saghm 10y ago

Since you said that the "m" is obvious from context, I'll compromise from now on and use "mB" exclusively

paulddraper 10y ago

Huh, and I thought mb was "make bucket", like aws s3 mb. http://docs.aws.amazon.com/cli/latest/reference/s3/mb.html http://docs.aws.amazon.com/cli/latest/reference/s3/mb.html

defined 10y ago

I think you have a good point. The whole reason for standards (like SI units) is so that people don't need to guess or interpret. I don't get why this was downvoted.

kibwen 10y ago
A bit isn't a divisible unit, so nobody is going to be confused as to whether "mb" stands for "millibits". As for the capitalization of "b", if we're going to be pedantic then we should say "Mo" for "megaoctets", since "byte" is, as far as IEEE standards are concerned, of ambiguous length. But I think we can trust people enough to not spend too long puzzling over whether "mb" means megabytes or megabits, just as we can trust them to assume that byte implies eight bits in this context.
- rsync 10y ago
  "A bit isn't a divisible unit" What ? Sure it is. When you measure the information content (or, the entropy) of a message, you very frequently get non-integer numbers of bits per (character/unit/message/whatever). Written english, for instance, has 1.46 bits of information per character. Or 146 cb.
  - kev009 10y ago
    That is expressing a ratio. A more concrete example, .46 a person doesn't exist even if that ratio is useful for expressing statistics.
    - drdeca 10y ago
      I think "gaining half a bit of information" about something can correspond to stuff that lets you update your probability distribution about it? I'm not sure.
      - kristjankalm 10y ago
        yes, but your gain is still an integer number. the non-integer ratio is just a statistic (gain per number of units).
        jamessb 10y ago
        Why is it an integer number? Entropy (in bits) is defined as - \sum_x (p(x) log_2 p(x)) There is no reason this has to be an integer, since probabilities are not restricted to being reciprocals of powers of 2. Consider also that you can simply use a different logarithm base to get a different unit (e.g. use the natural logarithm to obtain the entropy in nats). It would be bizarre if the arbitrary choice of 2 as the base gave a unit that was indivisible. I think this whole confusion comes down to the difference between a bit as a "unit of information in the sense of information theory" [divisible] and a bit as a "single physical one or zero" [not divisible]. The relationship between the two is that the entropy of a random variable is a lower bound on the average number of bits required to represent it.
JCharante 10y ago
You can downvote?
- mercer 10y ago
  Yeah, when your karma is high enough. I don't know what the amount is that leads to downvote enlightenment though.
  - eric_h 10y ago
    I believe it is 1000.
    - falsedan 10y ago
      It's less than 1Mk (one megakarma).
      - JetSpiegel 10y ago
        It's 1 kk (kilokarma).
        falsedan 10y ago
        It's also less than that, but more than 40 dak (decakarma)
    - joncrocks 10y ago
      It's around the 500 mark at the moment for comment downvoting I believe.
ldev 10y ago
Because we solve practical problems, and do not nit pick of what is technically correct. We are not drones and easily understand that in this context it's megabytes. Just look at all that "technically it's mebibytes bla bla bla" in replies. No one cares. Write some code. Or better - go outside.
- tripzilch 10y ago
  space launches have crashed because of confusion over standard units. in that case it was confusion between metric and certain fantasy engineering units, but an error of 1000/1024 will cause troubles just as badly. so with that attitude maybe don't write that code, and better stay inside or a rocket might fall on your head. but for serious, that correction probably has taught more than 10 people the difference between uppercase B = bytes, lowercase b = bits, uppercase M = mega = 1 000 000, lowercase m = milli, MiB = mebibyte = 1024 x 1024 bytes = 1 048 576 bytes, or at least made them aware of the important fact there is a difference. while your pedantry about nitpicking has taught nobody anything except to always be alert cause there's people like you that like to offload mental ballast and use wrong units because they insist their errors can be inferred and corrected from context... which is an important lesson also, but as a warning, not to defend the behaviour.
  - defined 10y ago
    This. Thank you.
dom0 10y ago
Insightful comment which took me 2700 mS to write.