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New York Has a Great Subway, If You’re Not in a Wheelchair

91 points by daegloe 10y ago

popopobobobo 10y ago
I think MTA should also consider putting a barrier on the edge of the platform. So that we won't get dozens of people being pushed off to the rails.
- grardb 10y ago
  Do you have a source for how often this happens? I can't find anything specifically about subway pushers in NYC. As far as I can tell, it's a very rare occurrence. That being said, I see fairly high numbers of deaths in general, mainly attributed to suicides and alcohol/drug use. How would this barrier work? Would it withdraw once the train pulled up or something?
  - tribune 10y ago
    There are gaps or doors that line up with the train doors when the subway stops
    - jessaustin 10y ago
      So this solution also requires operators able to stop the train at a particular point. Training is expensive!
  - covercash 10y ago
    Something like this maybe? http://philly.curbed.com/archives/2014/10/23/korean-company-will-pitch-platform-screen-doors-to-septa.php http://philly.curbed.com/archives/2014/10/23/korean-company-...
    - baron816 10y ago
      I think it's crazy that the MTA hasn't already done this. Not only would it save a lot of lives, but it would also allow the platform to be climate controlled. You have no idea how many times I've sat there underground for 30+ minutes in sub-freezing or 100+ degree heat.
      - covercash 10y ago
        And the advertising potential on BOTH sides of the wall!
      - Tokkemon 10y ago
        So we also have to pay for new HVAC systems on almost five hundred commercial buildings (that's what they are, even if underground) with no space for them? Cool.
      - billforsternz 10y ago
        Crazy is too strong a word because the costs involved would be astronomical / extraordinary / insane.
      - notmtaemployee 10y ago
        Platform doors are generally installed when you install modern signalling (CBTC) onto a line, which much of the NYC subway does not have. CBTC equipped trains can operate under Automatic Train Operation (ATO) meaning that trains can be made to always stop at the same location on the platform. Furthermore, platform doors require you to have trains that have the doors in the same positions on the car body, which much of the newer subway fleet (R142,R188 & R143,R160,R179) has but the legacy fleet does not. This issue get compounded even more where multiple lines intersect (which is often due to the NYC subway's unique connectedness) requiring that certain stations would need to support 3 or 4 different car classes.
    - astrodust 10y ago
      They investigated installing them here (Toronto) but the cost per station is pretty high, on the order of >$1M per platform. When you multiply that across a system as large as NYC that's easily half a billion dollars. I'm not sure how many ads you have to sell to recoup the cost, but it's probably a lot.
      - codq 10y ago
        ...maybe kick Melania and Barron out of NYC?
      - djrogers 10y ago
        edit - thought we were still talking about a simple low wall or gate, not the floor to ceiling glass in the GP post. leaving below for posterity.. > on the order of >$1M per platform That's insanity! Over $1M for something every amusement park has for every ride? Lemme guess, these one have to be engineered to the point of 'impossible to fail' and installed by the employees of municipal cronies at 3x fair wages? Talk about perfect being the enemy of good...
        astrodust 10y ago
        Insanity? That's dirt cheap. Think about how much mechanical complexity goes into each door, how it has multiple motors, servos, linear actuators and such. It has to be safe when closed, and it has to be safe when opened, it can't spontaneously shut in someone's face or pin them in the middle. It needs multiple sensors that can handle being exposed to a lot of wear and tear. It needs to operate for years on end with, ideally, very little maintenance. It has to endure being buffeted by the forces of the train entering and leaving the station which exerts significant strain on any hinges or track mechanisms. So you need a pair of these for each set of doors on the train, and if each car has three doors, and you have eight cars, that's 48 doors. That leaves you with only $20,800 per door. You still need to build the walls themselves and you need to have this installed by the right technicians. Do the math, don't bitch just because it sounds expensive.
        refurb 10y ago
  - garrettair 10y ago
    They seemed common in Japan when I visited: https://alicegordenker.wordpress.com/2012/01/17/subway-safety-platform-doors-%E3%83%9B%E3%83%BC%E3%83%A0%E3%83%89%E3%82%A2/ https://alicegordenker.wordpress.com/2012/01/17/subway-safet... (not my article)
  - Larrikin 10y ago
    There are numerous examples on the Tokyo Metro/Toei. The cheaper ones go up to about chest height and the more expensive ones completely block off the tracks by going up to the ceiling. They also have the added benefit of showing people where to line up and make it harder for someone to cause the train to be late by rushing/holding the door
  - adregan 10y ago
    Anecdotally: last year I was riding in a train that hit someone who fell onto the tracks because the platform was so crowded. 30 minutes later, one station away, a woman lost both her legs when a train ran them over. When I lived in Tokyo, they put platform guard walls in at many stations. They were about chest high and had sets of doors that would open before the train doors opened, and if we had them in NYC, both of those folks would have made it home without an incident.
    - Symbiote 10y ago
      In London, they simply close the station entrances (at street level) before it becomes so overcrowded. It can be a daily occurrence, e.g. at rush hour during a month of upgrade work on a particular line. There is no record of anyone being killed or severely injured through overcrowding.
      - arjie 10y ago
        Jubilee also has station doors at new stations.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - metaphorm 10y ago
    have you ever seen the tube system in London? it's a fully blocking barrier with a set of sliding doors that lines up precisely with the doors of the train cars when they pull in to the station. that's probably the ideal solution, but not practical for New York because the system was never designed with precision stopping points on the platform in mind. there's a margin of error that is at least a meter or so in either direction right now.
    - Symbiote 10y ago
      Only on the newest part of the newest line, the Jubilee Line Extension. (1999? something like that.) There are no "platform edge curtain" doors on other lines, even though many other lines also have computer controlled trains. (The "driver" is still there to press a button to start the train, but many lines almost drive themselves.) Although, even on the fully manual lines, the driver is expected to stop the train precisely -- the platforms aren't long enough for inaccuracy.
    - stuaxo 10y ago
      Only on new lines with straight platforms. Older ones are almost all on curves, a guy in the sliding doors business told me they looked into but the cost was too high as each station is on a different circumference bend so they would all be custom jobs.
  - nemo44x 10y ago
    The MTA is currently working on a solution that doesn't use barriers. [1] The short of it is that it will use thermal cameras and other sensors to determine if a human (and not a rat, for instance) has entered the tracks and is in danger. It won't kill the trains but slow them down considerably and of course if it's a last second jumper or someone who falls right as the train is entering the station it won't work. But I imagine it will help solve a majority of the issues. If you're nervous for your safety then I would recommend to stand on the far end of the platform where the front of the train stops at the station. [1] http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/mta-testing-systems-save-people-fall-subway-tracks-article-1.1898975 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/mta-testing-systems-save...
- Grazester 10y ago
  There aren't dozens of people being pushed on the rails. Maybe in a two decade span probably but those barriers will never happen in NYC.
- Tokkemon 10y ago
  6 people died from being struck by trains in a year (I think that was 2015 they pushed in their advertisements). There were about 1.76 billion rides in the same period. As much as it's a feel-good measure, there is no conceivable way to justify the incredible expense of platform doors for such a small number of instances. And the dirty secret is most of those are suicides. If they can't kill themselves on a train, they'll just go to the nearest bridge.
  - smt88 10y ago
    > If they can't kill themselves on a train, they'll just go to the nearest bridge. This is a quibble in this context, but it's an important issue in others (such as access to guns): Suicide is an impulsive act. The less "convenient" it is to kill oneself, the fewer suicides there are. A extra few minutes to reconsider can often be lifesaving. This is well-researched (and still fun) podcast where I learned about this: https://gimletmedia.com/episode/guns/ https://gimletmedia.com/episode/guns/
  - DanBC 10y ago
    > If they can't kill themselves on a train, they'll just go to the nearest bridge. That's not true. Method substitution takes years.
  - nemo44x 10y ago
    In 2013 151 were struck and 53 died. Those are rather consistent numbers. However, when you consider the millions that ride the Subway each day and the hundreds of millions each year it's a very small number. Cars create more deaths per capita I believe.
  - notmtaemployee 10y ago
    Platform doors are not just for preventing falls onto the right of way, they also help to reduce litter, reduce delays due trains coming into stations slowly because of overcrowding and allow stations to be air conditioning.
- SeanOC 10y ago
  They look into it every few years but so far the costs to do so have been astronomical so it doesn't go past studies. I don't have a good reference at the moment but from what I understand, most of it comes down to it being much harder to retrofit that kind of thing on to a 100+-year-old system than it is to build it into a new system. More specifically, since nothing was built with that in mind there are all kinds of challenges that would be very expensive to address like not all platforms are level or straight (imagine the cost and disruption involved in expanding and rebuilding the 4/5/6 platform and tunnels at Union Station to make them straight) and not all trains have doors that align in the same places (different generations of trains in service at the same time, different designs of trains on different lines, etc). None of this means it can't or shouldn't be addressed eventually, but like many things in life there are reasons things aren't "just done" and it's important to understand those reasons if you want to make change happen.
spyspy 10y ago
> only 92 of the system’s 425 stations accessible > On average, 25 elevators a day stop working Do 27% of elevators really break down on a _daily_ basis? That is abysmal if accurate.
- tribune 10y ago
  Most stations have more than one elevator, but that's still terrible
  - mtanski 10y ago
    Most stations have exactly 0 elevators.
    - tgb 10y ago
      The OP was using statistics of wheelchair accessible stations to get that 25% number.
- slowandlow 10y ago
  I don't see too many elevators and hopefully it gets fixed with the push the governor is making towards modernizing stations across NYC. It's important to remember that a lot of the stations, in Lower Manhattan especially, are way too small (4-5 foot wide platforms with 2 stairwells). I don't see elevators happening at those stations. A lot of these smaller platforms are connected other small platforms via stairs (think Canal Street - JZQNR6). Good luck if your stop is on a bridge in Brooklyn or Queens.
  - kalleboo 10y ago
    They could install stair lifts?
    - stuaxo 10y ago
      In London (Clapham Junction at least) they have tracked vehicles that can take a wheelchair up the Victorian stairs
23443463453 10y ago
What is it that makes disabled people somehow more "more equal" than regular society? If you are in a wheelchair, don't use the subway. Tough luck, life's a bitch and shit's not fair. What, next we're going to make it illegal for shallow women to not date men that are shorter than them? Or demand that all cars be retrofitted for wheelchairs and any new cars be made with wheelchairs in mind? So what do we do now? I guess we now shut down the system since it's "unfair" and our feelings are hurt and issue a $2 Billion bond and jack up taxes and prices to rebuild the whole system so that a couple dozen disabled people can get around ... sometimes? The ADA is just about the biggest racket and shakedown of society one could ever imagine. There is a difference between accommodation when reasonable or even making different choices that don't incur additional costs, but making people and companies do things and take on costs to benefit a tiny little minority is outright oppression. So when do we start lowering rents and prices because it's not accommodating of low income people in the city that also have a choice to simply leave the city. If you can't ride the subway, maybe don't ride the subway, or leave the city. The ADA is like a pernicious cancer that keeps eating away and shutting down society one tiny little bit at a time.
georgefrick 10y ago
There have been other attempts to bring awareness to this problem. Here is a half funny, half sad version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhpUJRGrZgc&ab_channel=CerebralPalsyFoundation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhpUJRGrZgc&ab_channel=Cereb... I like the approach of sharing some data / statistics; but it would be nice if we could combine the two. The saturated humor when combined with the real information might make more of an impact.
virtuexru 10y ago
Yet they are slated to raise the prices again next year. It's already $2.75 for a regular swipe. FeelsBadMan.
- Tokkemon 10y ago
  At less than the rate of inflation.
- noer 10y ago
  And yet the farebox recovery ratio is only 51%.
  - Symbiote 10y ago
    The alternative -- paying for more roads, somehow -- is probably much more expensive.
- slowandlow 10y ago
  MTA runs on a deficit so yeah like any business they need to raise prices. Sadly :(
  - klodolph 10y ago
    No, there are many solutions to the deficit. Raising fares, more advertising revenue, more funding from tax revenue, lower level of services, etc.
  - notmtaemployee 10y ago
    The MTA actually doesn't run a deficit, both their operational and capital budgets are fully funded. The MTA overall is pretty fiscally responsible (im sure you can always find more waste to cut, but that's true of any organization) but is sadly overly reliant on debt to fund its capital program because the city, state and federal no longer really fund transit. This has lead to to about 15-20% of its operational budget to be dedicated to debt service, ie. money not being used for actual transit operation. Furthermore each year the money from the various emergency and rainy day funds in the operational budge that are not spent, are used to make additional contributions (above what is already budgeted each year) to the various befit and pensions obligations. Unfortunately this good fiscal responsibility also means that the governor can screw the MTA out 65 million $ and get away with it because they can manage the loss. http://nyc.streetsblog.org/2017/03/14/state-assembly-wants-to-restore-cuomos-65-million-mta-cut/ http://nyc.streetsblog.org/2017/03/14/state-assembly-wants-t...
houshuang 10y ago
Same in Paris, we just vacationed there for five days, with a two year old. Very difficult to navigate in a stroller (good proxy for a wheelchair - I can lift it down the stairs, but my wife cannot alone). However, there it's quite a difficult problem to solve (I recognize) because a lot of the transfers between different stations are a bunch of underground hallways with staircases in all directions, so it's not simply enough to add elevators from the stations to platform level.
- athenot 10y ago
  In Paris, the accessible stations are indicated on the maps. While that doesn't fix the accessibility issue, it can help a little bit with finding alternate stations.
struct 10y ago
It's the same situation in London, only about 25% of Underground stations are accessible[1]. This seems to be the cost of old infrastructure - when most of the network was built, accessibility simply wasn't a consideration. Neither was having a decent mobile signal, or air conditioning. Fortunately, we've learned from this and newer systems like the ones in Shanghai and Taiwan seem to be far more accessible. [1] https://tfl.gov.uk/transport-accessibility/wheelchair-access-and-avoiding-stairs https://tfl.gov.uk/transport-accessibility/wheelchair-access...
- Reason077 10y ago
  Progress is being made, however. Stations are currently being retrofitted for step-free acccess at the rate of around 30 stations every 5 years. OK, it'll be many decades before every station is fully accessible at that rate. But progress is being made. The Tube is infrastructure which will likely still be around for decades or centuries to come, so it's worth doing. TfL's online status tools and journey planner are also pretty good at keeping track of any lift outages, etc, so it's unlikely anyone will turn up to a station to find a broken lift unexpectedly.
- Symbiote 10y ago
  For mobile signal, TfL wanted more money and better cooperation than the mobile networks were willing to provide. The speed of the upgrade programme was reduced by Johnstone, but is progressing. The three disabled people I know, have organized most of their lives around the parts that have already been upgraded or other transport methods (DLR, trams in Croydon) but still very much appreciate the improvements as they are made to the Underground.
1_2__3 10y ago
This just in: the entire world isn't wheelchair-accessible. Is this just supposed to be a pointless injection of moral outrage? How many millions - or billions - of dollars should we spend on "fixing" the NY Subway for wheelchairs? At what point do we pass the threshold of reasonable cost-benefit and descend into hemorrhaging money and resources to accommodate every differently-abled person in the world? That last question isn't rhetorical: if you're going to downvote please explain how we evaluate the efficacy of these efforts, and explain what the upper bound on "accommodations" should be.
guruz 10y ago
What about mothers/fathers with baby buggies?
- nemo44x 10y ago
  You carry the buggy up the stairs together and if you're on your own a stranger will help you. It's very common to see this (and to help people when you see they need help) in NYC. Beside our reputation, we're a friendly bunch here.
  - pavel_lishin 10y ago
    It's also true of wheelchairs. My wife and I helped a man in a wheelchair up some stairs in Brooklyn, since his alternative was taking the train about five stops down to an elevator-equipped station, then getting on a bus, and coming right back. At that time of night, we optimistically estimated an hour for him to do so... or about 60 seconds for us to carry him up.
  - Markoff 10y ago
    they why you pay taxes if strangers should fix your problems instead of government? it is solution, but not really systematic
Mythanar 10y ago
I highly suspect it is plain cheaper (and more convenient) to just subsidize private car rides for disabled people than making entire transit infrastructure in huge city to account for them. Better yet, take the money that government would otherwise spend on building all the wheelchair accomodations, and just distribute that between wheelchair users. I am sure many of them would prefer that over subway improvements which they might never use. "Disabled people cannot reach their [work, school, childcare, w/e]", if true, is a valid problem. There are multiple ways to solve that problem. "NYC subway does not have wheelchair accomodations" is a useless outrage over circumstantial symptoms.
- djrogers 10y ago
  Your solution, while logical and seemingly full of common sense, is orthagonal to the regulatory and statutory solutions put in place in this country.
  - randyrand 10y ago
    When people think of better solutions, regulations often change. For example, there used to be a law in chicago that saloons needed to have a place to tie up at least 10 horse. That law quickly became outdated when the next best thing, the car, came around.
    - djrogers 10y ago
      Oh they should - I just don't have any expectation that ADA compliance regulations will change to the extent this would require in my lifetime.
- cujo 10y ago
  I don't think I buy this as a viable alternative. The first problem that pops into my head is transportation for disabled people who are visiting the city or that commute in for whatever reason. Providing them access to the disabled-taxi-program is problematic.
  - 10y ago
randyrand 10y ago
Good thing most people aren't in wheelchairs! Edit: What, you really wish more people were in wheelchairs?
randyrand 10y ago
Given that 1 in 10,000 people in NYC are in wheelchairs, I really think it would be orders of magnitude more cost effective for the government to pay for disabled persons cab fares than to make public transit accessible. Has anyone run the numbers?
- leonatan 10y ago
  Would there also be interest paid for time lost in traffic? New York roads are tight and always busy, something the public transit system is supposed to workaround.
  - randyrand 10y ago
    I think free fare and door to door service would be pretty good already. Paying them for time lost in traffic seems like it's going too far. After all, its not the taxpayers fault they are in a wheelchair. We don't need to compensate them.
  - metaphorm 10y ago
    why are you suggesting this? transportation delays affect everyone, disabled or not, and there are delays on subways and busses too.
  - setr 10y ago
    Public transport is supposed to alleviate congestion on the road. That there exists those unwilling or unable to make use of it is irrelevant, so long as a sufficient percentage of the driving population can and do use it over driving themselves. There is no reason to imagine that compensating those not using it (for any reason, be it disability or in a niche area in the city, or simply unwilling) would be a part of the goal of providing public transportation. It is not a gift to the people from bottom of the government's heart, that they would try to offer an alternative gift to those unable or unwilling to partake in this wonderful service.
- Markoff 10y ago
  how many of those 9999 have one or more children once in a life? you will understand this one day when you will push stroller
_audakel 10y ago
You could have "service stations" where people who want to do service aka do good could go. Wheel chair people could wait there for someone who was going to ride the subway anyway to walk past and, wanting to do good in the world, help the disabled person get on.
jessaustin 10y ago
It's certainly past time that some tiny fraction of the billions of dollars spent on accessibility were spent subsidizing modes of travel that don't require such bland and dehumanized environs. Elevators on medium-sized buildings (and subways) are a nuisance, in that they make most of the population less healthy in exchange for 0.7% of the population being able to explore every nook. If the law hadn't cemented handicapped rights to use dated technology, many people already would be using something capable of climbing stairs. Yes, that "something" would probably cost more than a wheelchair that could have been manufactured in 1950. Since the mobility of the handicapped is in society's interest, society can subsidize it, rather than mandating that brick-and-mortar businesses do so.
- greenyouse 10y ago
  Sort of a tangent but have you seen the iBot chairs? They can climb stairs. It's pretty cool to watch!
- mcguire 10y ago
  This is true. For example, carrying an apartment's worth of furniture up to the 7th floor will drastically improve your cardiovascular health. Or kill you.
pinaceae 10y ago
Vienna retro-fitted every subway station with wheelchair and stroller compatible elevators. Don't discount the latter, so much easier for parents to use the subway that way. It totally can be done. The US carved off a slice of every sidewalk to allow for ramps for wheelchairs, nationwide.
- cameldrv 10y ago
  It's simpler in Vienna though because they have a proof of payment system. You just need one elevator to the platform. In NY, you need one to the turnstiles, and then another one to the platform.
  - Markoff 10y ago
    why they use actually turnstiles in NY? seem very inefficient on par with jams i experienced in Beijing which user them too though i can understand need for them in China where people even refill their bottles in IKEA at self serving driving machines, but one would think that Americans are more honest
- coddingtonbear 10y ago
  Your might not be from the US, so I can understand how you might have such an impression, but wheelchair ramps, although universal for new construction, are usually not installed until either new construction occurs nearby or the sidewalk itself needs to be replaced unless a high traffic street. For example, although I think the installation of wheelchair ramps on sidewalks has been going on for at least 30 years, probably only about half of the curbs in my relatively-urban neighborhood have ramps.
maxxxxx 10y ago
When we were in Paris last year my girlfriend broke her foot and I had to push her around in a wheelchair. It's a real pain to see that some elevator is not working and you have to walk half a mile to find the next one. Since then I have much more respect for people who have to deal with this every day.
ufmace 10y ago
This article paints a pretty negative view of it, but looking at the numbers, that might not be the case: 425 stations total 92 stations accessible Boston has 53 stations, with "90% wheelchair accessible", sounds like 48 to me. So "lousy" NYC has almost double the number of wheelchair accessible stations as "great" Boston, and 8 times the total number of stations. Sadly, retrofitting more elevators into existing stations, especially many of the smaller ones, is a tough sell. It would at least be nice if they could do a better job of maintaining them and keeping track of the ones that are down and what the best alternative route is. And the program, mentioned elsewhere in this thread, to provide discounted van service, is probably much better, considering the challenge of getting to and between stations when disabled.
- nkoren 10y ago
  > So "lousy" NYC has almost double the number of wheelchair accessible stations as "great" Boston, and 8 times the total number of stations. That's comparing apples to watermelons. Boston has a population of 650,000; New York, 8.5 million. So in Boston there is one accessible station per 13,500 residents. In New York, one per 92,400 residents. (The total residents per station is much more comparable, at 12.2k and 20k respectively). This suggests that a more like-for-like basis, New York is roughly 4 to 7 times less accessible than Boston. Edit: Actually, here's a better way to think about it, which does work a bit more in New York's favor. A variant of Metcalfe's law[1] applies to transport networks, in that the utility of a network is proportional to the total number of journeys that can be taken within it. So Boston has (48^2 - 48)/2 = 1,128 accessible origin/destination pairs, while NYC has 4,186 O/D pairs. So 1.73 accessible O/D pairs per thousand residents in Boston, versus 0.49 in New York. For an able-bodied resident, Boston provides 2.12 trips per thousand residents, 10.6 trips per thousand residents for NYC. So if you're not in a wheelchair, then NYC is five times better than Boston. But if you are in a wheelchair, then NYC is 3.5 times worse. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe's_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe's_law
  - rrdharan 10y ago
    Isn't the better population comparison the MSAs (metropolitan statistical areas)? For Boston that's ~5M and for NYC it's ~20M. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Boston https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Boston
perseusprime11 10y ago
I don't agree that New York has a Great Subway. It is really dirty. The homeless people use it as their home as they don't have any where else to go.
- charles-salvia 10y ago
  It runs 24 hours and extensively covers 4 of the 5 boroughs. Yes, it's dirty, but the coverage + availability is what makes it a great system - it's certainly unparalleled in the Western hemisphere. Everytime I go to San Francisco I realize how awesome the NYC subway really is.
Clanan 10y ago
I remember reading the news story about the author's accident. Very interesting/sobering to read about life since then. More on topic, I'm considering a move to NYC and the thought of navigating the city with young kids is almost stressful itself.
Findy3ti 10y ago
Zach Anner recently did something similar showing just how long it takes to get across New York when in a wheelchair https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhpUJRGrZgc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhpUJRGrZgc

91 points by daegloe 10y ago

I think MTA should also consider putting a barrier on the edge of the platform. So that we won't get dozens of people being pushed off to the rails.

grardb 10y ago
Do you have a source for how often this happens? I can't find anything specifically about subway pushers in NYC. As far as I can tell, it's a very rare occurrence. That being said, I see fairly high numbers of deaths in general, mainly attributed to suicides and alcohol/drug use. How would this barrier work? Would it withdraw once the train pulled up or something?
- tribune 10y ago
  There are gaps or doors that line up with the train doors when the subway stops
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    So this solution also requires operators able to stop the train at a particular point. Training is expensive!
- covercash 10y ago
  Something like this maybe? http://philly.curbed.com/archives/2014/10/23/korean-company-will-pitch-platform-screen-doors-to-septa.php http://philly.curbed.com/archives/2014/10/23/korean-company-...
  - baron816 10y ago
    I think it's crazy that the MTA hasn't already done this. Not only would it save a lot of lives, but it would also allow the platform to be climate controlled. You have no idea how many times I've sat there underground for 30+ minutes in sub-freezing or 100+ degree heat.
    - covercash 10y ago
      And the advertising potential on BOTH sides of the wall!
    - Tokkemon 10y ago
      So we also have to pay for new HVAC systems on almost five hundred commercial buildings (that's what they are, even if underground) with no space for them? Cool.
    - billforsternz 10y ago
      Crazy is too strong a word because the costs involved would be astronomical / extraordinary / insane.
    - notmtaemployee 10y ago
      Platform doors are generally installed when you install modern signalling (CBTC) onto a line, which much of the NYC subway does not have. CBTC equipped trains can operate under Automatic Train Operation (ATO) meaning that trains can be made to always stop at the same location on the platform. Furthermore, platform doors require you to have trains that have the doors in the same positions on the car body, which much of the newer subway fleet (R142,R188 & R143,R160,R179) has but the legacy fleet does not. This issue get compounded even more where multiple lines intersect (which is often due to the NYC subway's unique connectedness) requiring that certain stations would need to support 3 or 4 different car classes.
  - astrodust 10y ago
    They investigated installing them here (Toronto) but the cost per station is pretty high, on the order of >$1M per platform. When you multiply that across a system as large as NYC that's easily half a billion dollars. I'm not sure how many ads you have to sell to recoup the cost, but it's probably a lot.
    - codq 10y ago
      ...maybe kick Melania and Barron out of NYC?
    - djrogers 10y ago
      edit - thought we were still talking about a simple low wall or gate, not the floor to ceiling glass in the GP post. leaving below for posterity.. > on the order of >$1M per platform That's insanity! Over $1M for something every amusement park has for every ride? Lemme guess, these one have to be engineered to the point of 'impossible to fail' and installed by the employees of municipal cronies at 3x fair wages? Talk about perfect being the enemy of good...
      - astrodust 10y ago
        Insanity? That's dirt cheap. Think about how much mechanical complexity goes into each door, how it has multiple motors, servos, linear actuators and such. It has to be safe when closed, and it has to be safe when opened, it can't spontaneously shut in someone's face or pin them in the middle. It needs multiple sensors that can handle being exposed to a lot of wear and tear. It needs to operate for years on end with, ideally, very little maintenance. It has to endure being buffeted by the forces of the train entering and leaving the station which exerts significant strain on any hinges or track mechanisms. So you need a pair of these for each set of doors on the train, and if each car has three doors, and you have eight cars, that's 48 doors. That leaves you with only $20,800 per door. You still need to build the walls themselves and you need to have this installed by the right technicians. Do the math, don't bitch just because it sounds expensive.
        refurb 10y ago
- garrettair 10y ago
  They seemed common in Japan when I visited: https://alicegordenker.wordpress.com/2012/01/17/subway-safety-platform-doors-%E3%83%9B%E3%83%BC%E3%83%A0%E3%83%89%E3%82%A2/ https://alicegordenker.wordpress.com/2012/01/17/subway-safet... (not my article)
- Larrikin 10y ago
  There are numerous examples on the Tokyo Metro/Toei. The cheaper ones go up to about chest height and the more expensive ones completely block off the tracks by going up to the ceiling. They also have the added benefit of showing people where to line up and make it harder for someone to cause the train to be late by rushing/holding the door
- adregan 10y ago
  Anecdotally: last year I was riding in a train that hit someone who fell onto the tracks because the platform was so crowded. 30 minutes later, one station away, a woman lost both her legs when a train ran them over. When I lived in Tokyo, they put platform guard walls in at many stations. They were about chest high and had sets of doors that would open before the train doors opened, and if we had them in NYC, both of those folks would have made it home without an incident.
  - Symbiote 10y ago
    In London, they simply close the station entrances (at street level) before it becomes so overcrowded. It can be a daily occurrence, e.g. at rush hour during a month of upgrade work on a particular line. There is no record of anyone being killed or severely injured through overcrowding.
    - arjie 10y ago
      Jubilee also has station doors at new stations.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- metaphorm 10y ago
  have you ever seen the tube system in London? it's a fully blocking barrier with a set of sliding doors that lines up precisely with the doors of the train cars when they pull in to the station. that's probably the ideal solution, but not practical for New York because the system was never designed with precision stopping points on the platform in mind. there's a margin of error that is at least a meter or so in either direction right now.
  - Symbiote 10y ago
    Only on the newest part of the newest line, the Jubilee Line Extension. (1999? something like that.) There are no "platform edge curtain" doors on other lines, even though many other lines also have computer controlled trains. (The "driver" is still there to press a button to start the train, but many lines almost drive themselves.) Although, even on the fully manual lines, the driver is expected to stop the train precisely -- the platforms aren't long enough for inaccuracy.
  - stuaxo 10y ago
    Only on new lines with straight platforms. Older ones are almost all on curves, a guy in the sliding doors business told me they looked into but the cost was too high as each station is on a different circumference bend so they would all be custom jobs.
- nemo44x 10y ago
  The MTA is currently working on a solution that doesn't use barriers. [1] The short of it is that it will use thermal cameras and other sensors to determine if a human (and not a rat, for instance) has entered the tracks and is in danger. It won't kill the trains but slow them down considerably and of course if it's a last second jumper or someone who falls right as the train is entering the station it won't work. But I imagine it will help solve a majority of the issues. If you're nervous for your safety then I would recommend to stand on the far end of the platform where the front of the train stops at the station. [1] http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/mta-testing-systems-save-people-fall-subway-tracks-article-1.1898975 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/mta-testing-systems-save...
Grazester 10y ago
There aren't dozens of people being pushed on the rails. Maybe in a two decade span probably but those barriers will never happen in NYC.
Tokkemon 10y ago
6 people died from being struck by trains in a year (I think that was 2015 they pushed in their advertisements). There were about 1.76 billion rides in the same period. As much as it's a feel-good measure, there is no conceivable way to justify the incredible expense of platform doors for such a small number of instances. And the dirty secret is most of those are suicides. If they can't kill themselves on a train, they'll just go to the nearest bridge.
- smt88 10y ago
  > If they can't kill themselves on a train, they'll just go to the nearest bridge. This is a quibble in this context, but it's an important issue in others (such as access to guns): Suicide is an impulsive act. The less "convenient" it is to kill oneself, the fewer suicides there are. A extra few minutes to reconsider can often be lifesaving. This is well-researched (and still fun) podcast where I learned about this: https://gimletmedia.com/episode/guns/ https://gimletmedia.com/episode/guns/
- DanBC 10y ago
  > If they can't kill themselves on a train, they'll just go to the nearest bridge. That's not true. Method substitution takes years.
- nemo44x 10y ago
  In 2013 151 were struck and 53 died. Those are rather consistent numbers. However, when you consider the millions that ride the Subway each day and the hundreds of millions each year it's a very small number. Cars create more deaths per capita I believe.
- notmtaemployee 10y ago
  Platform doors are not just for preventing falls onto the right of way, they also help to reduce litter, reduce delays due trains coming into stations slowly because of overcrowding and allow stations to be air conditioning.
SeanOC 10y ago
They look into it every few years but so far the costs to do so have been astronomical so it doesn't go past studies. I don't have a good reference at the moment but from what I understand, most of it comes down to it being much harder to retrofit that kind of thing on to a 100+-year-old system than it is to build it into a new system. More specifically, since nothing was built with that in mind there are all kinds of challenges that would be very expensive to address like not all platforms are level or straight (imagine the cost and disruption involved in expanding and rebuilding the 4/5/6 platform and tunnels at Union Station to make them straight) and not all trains have doors that align in the same places (different generations of trains in service at the same time, different designs of trains on different lines, etc). None of this means it can't or shouldn't be addressed eventually, but like many things in life there are reasons things aren't "just done" and it's important to understand those reasons if you want to make change happen.

spyspy 10y ago

> only 92 of the system’s 425 stations accessible > On average, 25 elevators a day stop working Do 27% of elevators really break down on a _daily_ basis? That is abysmal if accurate.

tribune 10y ago
Most stations have more than one elevator, but that's still terrible
- mtanski 10y ago
  Most stations have exactly 0 elevators.
  - tgb 10y ago
    The OP was using statistics of wheelchair accessible stations to get that 25% number.
slowandlow 10y ago
I don't see too many elevators and hopefully it gets fixed with the push the governor is making towards modernizing stations across NYC. It's important to remember that a lot of the stations, in Lower Manhattan especially, are way too small (4-5 foot wide platforms with 2 stairwells). I don't see elevators happening at those stations. A lot of these smaller platforms are connected other small platforms via stairs (think Canal Street - JZQNR6). Good luck if your stop is on a bridge in Brooklyn or Queens.
- kalleboo 10y ago
  They could install stair lifts?
  - stuaxo 10y ago
    In London (Clapham Junction at least) they have tracked vehicles that can take a wheelchair up the Victorian stairs

23443463453 10y ago

What is it that makes disabled people somehow more "more equal" than regular society? If you are in a wheelchair, don't use the subway. Tough luck, life's a bitch and shit's not fair. What, next we're going to make it illegal for shallow women to not date men that are shorter than them? Or demand that all cars be retrofitted for wheelchairs and any new cars be made with wheelchairs in mind? So what do we do now? I guess we now shut down the system since it's "unfair" and our feelings are hurt and issue a $2 Billion bond and jack up taxes and prices to rebuild the whole system so that a couple dozen disabled people can get around ... sometimes? The ADA is just about the biggest racket and shakedown of society one could ever imagine. There is a difference between accommodation when reasonable or even making different choices that don't incur additional costs, but making people and companies do things and take on costs to benefit a tiny little minority is outright oppression. So when do we start lowering rents and prices because it's not accommodating of low income people in the city that also have a choice to simply leave the city. If you can't ride the subway, maybe don't ride the subway, or leave the city. The ADA is like a pernicious cancer that keeps eating away and shutting down society one tiny little bit at a time.

georgefrick 10y ago

There have been other attempts to bring awareness to this problem. Here is a half funny, half sad version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhpUJRGrZgc&ab_channel=CerebralPalsyFoundation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhpUJRGrZgc&ab_channel=Cereb... I like the approach of sharing some data / statistics; but it would be nice if we could combine the two. The saturated humor when combined with the real information might make more of an impact.

virtuexru 10y ago

Yet they are slated to raise the prices again next year. It's already $2.75 for a regular swipe. FeelsBadMan.

Tokkemon 10y ago
At less than the rate of inflation.
noer 10y ago
And yet the farebox recovery ratio is only 51%.
- Symbiote 10y ago
  The alternative -- paying for more roads, somehow -- is probably much more expensive.
slowandlow 10y ago
MTA runs on a deficit so yeah like any business they need to raise prices. Sadly :(
- klodolph 10y ago
  No, there are many solutions to the deficit. Raising fares, more advertising revenue, more funding from tax revenue, lower level of services, etc.
- notmtaemployee 10y ago
  The MTA actually doesn't run a deficit, both their operational and capital budgets are fully funded. The MTA overall is pretty fiscally responsible (im sure you can always find more waste to cut, but that's true of any organization) but is sadly overly reliant on debt to fund its capital program because the city, state and federal no longer really fund transit. This has lead to to about 15-20% of its operational budget to be dedicated to debt service, ie. money not being used for actual transit operation. Furthermore each year the money from the various emergency and rainy day funds in the operational budge that are not spent, are used to make additional contributions (above what is already budgeted each year) to the various befit and pensions obligations. Unfortunately this good fiscal responsibility also means that the governor can screw the MTA out 65 million $ and get away with it because they can manage the loss. http://nyc.streetsblog.org/2017/03/14/state-assembly-wants-to-restore-cuomos-65-million-mta-cut/ http://nyc.streetsblog.org/2017/03/14/state-assembly-wants-t...

houshuang 10y ago

Same in Paris, we just vacationed there for five days, with a two year old. Very difficult to navigate in a stroller (good proxy for a wheelchair - I can lift it down the stairs, but my wife cannot alone). However, there it's quite a difficult problem to solve (I recognize) because a lot of the transfers between different stations are a bunch of underground hallways with staircases in all directions, so it's not simply enough to add elevators from the stations to platform level.

athenot 10y ago
In Paris, the accessible stations are indicated on the maps. While that doesn't fix the accessibility issue, it can help a little bit with finding alternate stations.

struct 10y ago

It's the same situation in London, only about 25% of Underground stations are accessible[1]. This seems to be the cost of old infrastructure - when most of the network was built, accessibility simply wasn't a consideration. Neither was having a decent mobile signal, or air conditioning. Fortunately, we've learned from this and newer systems like the ones in Shanghai and Taiwan seem to be far more accessible. [1] https://tfl.gov.uk/transport-accessibility/wheelchair-access-and-avoiding-stairs https://tfl.gov.uk/transport-accessibility/wheelchair-access...

Reason077 10y ago
Progress is being made, however. Stations are currently being retrofitted for step-free acccess at the rate of around 30 stations every 5 years. OK, it'll be many decades before every station is fully accessible at that rate. But progress is being made. The Tube is infrastructure which will likely still be around for decades or centuries to come, so it's worth doing. TfL's online status tools and journey planner are also pretty good at keeping track of any lift outages, etc, so it's unlikely anyone will turn up to a station to find a broken lift unexpectedly.
Symbiote 10y ago
For mobile signal, TfL wanted more money and better cooperation than the mobile networks were willing to provide. The speed of the upgrade programme was reduced by Johnstone, but is progressing. The three disabled people I know, have organized most of their lives around the parts that have already been upgraded or other transport methods (DLR, trams in Croydon) but still very much appreciate the improvements as they are made to the Underground.

1_2__3 10y ago

This just in: the entire world isn't wheelchair-accessible. Is this just supposed to be a pointless injection of moral outrage? How many millions - or billions - of dollars should we spend on "fixing" the NY Subway for wheelchairs? At what point do we pass the threshold of reasonable cost-benefit and descend into hemorrhaging money and resources to accommodate every differently-abled person in the world? That last question isn't rhetorical: if you're going to downvote please explain how we evaluate the efficacy of these efforts, and explain what the upper bound on "accommodations" should be.

guruz 10y ago

What about mothers/fathers with baby buggies?

nemo44x 10y ago
You carry the buggy up the stairs together and if you're on your own a stranger will help you. It's very common to see this (and to help people when you see they need help) in NYC. Beside our reputation, we're a friendly bunch here.
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  It's also true of wheelchairs. My wife and I helped a man in a wheelchair up some stairs in Brooklyn, since his alternative was taking the train about five stops down to an elevator-equipped station, then getting on a bus, and coming right back. At that time of night, we optimistically estimated an hour for him to do so... or about 60 seconds for us to carry him up.
- Markoff 10y ago
  they why you pay taxes if strangers should fix your problems instead of government? it is solution, but not really systematic

Mythanar 10y ago

I highly suspect it is plain cheaper (and more convenient) to just subsidize private car rides for disabled people than making entire transit infrastructure in huge city to account for them. Better yet, take the money that government would otherwise spend on building all the wheelchair accomodations, and just distribute that between wheelchair users. I am sure many of them would prefer that over subway improvements which they might never use. "Disabled people cannot reach their [work, school, childcare, w/e]", if true, is a valid problem. There are multiple ways to solve that problem. "NYC subway does not have wheelchair accomodations" is a useless outrage over circumstantial symptoms.

djrogers 10y ago
Your solution, while logical and seemingly full of common sense, is orthagonal to the regulatory and statutory solutions put in place in this country.
- randyrand 10y ago
  When people think of better solutions, regulations often change. For example, there used to be a law in chicago that saloons needed to have a place to tie up at least 10 horse. That law quickly became outdated when the next best thing, the car, came around.
  - djrogers 10y ago
    Oh they should - I just don't have any expectation that ADA compliance regulations will change to the extent this would require in my lifetime.
cujo 10y ago
I don't think I buy this as a viable alternative. The first problem that pops into my head is transportation for disabled people who are visiting the city or that commute in for whatever reason. Providing them access to the disabled-taxi-program is problematic.
- 10y ago

randyrand 10y ago

Good thing most people aren't in wheelchairs! Edit: What, you really wish more people were in wheelchairs?

randyrand 10y ago

Given that 1 in 10,000 people in NYC are in wheelchairs, I really think it would be orders of magnitude more cost effective for the government to pay for disabled persons cab fares than to make public transit accessible. Has anyone run the numbers?

leonatan 10y ago
Would there also be interest paid for time lost in traffic? New York roads are tight and always busy, something the public transit system is supposed to workaround.
- randyrand 10y ago
  I think free fare and door to door service would be pretty good already. Paying them for time lost in traffic seems like it's going too far. After all, its not the taxpayers fault they are in a wheelchair. We don't need to compensate them.
- metaphorm 10y ago
  why are you suggesting this? transportation delays affect everyone, disabled or not, and there are delays on subways and busses too.
- setr 10y ago
  Public transport is supposed to alleviate congestion on the road. That there exists those unwilling or unable to make use of it is irrelevant, so long as a sufficient percentage of the driving population can and do use it over driving themselves. There is no reason to imagine that compensating those not using it (for any reason, be it disability or in a niche area in the city, or simply unwilling) would be a part of the goal of providing public transportation. It is not a gift to the people from bottom of the government's heart, that they would try to offer an alternative gift to those unable or unwilling to partake in this wonderful service.
Markoff 10y ago
how many of those 9999 have one or more children once in a life? you will understand this one day when you will push stroller

_audakel 10y ago

You could have "service stations" where people who want to do service aka do good could go. Wheel chair people could wait there for someone who was going to ride the subway anyway to walk past and, wanting to do good in the world, help the disabled person get on.

jessaustin 10y ago

It's certainly past time that some tiny fraction of the billions of dollars spent on accessibility were spent subsidizing modes of travel that don't require such bland and dehumanized environs. Elevators on medium-sized buildings (and subways) are a nuisance, in that they make most of the population less healthy in exchange for 0.7% of the population being able to explore every nook. If the law hadn't cemented handicapped rights to use dated technology, many people already would be using something capable of climbing stairs. Yes, that "something" would probably cost more than a wheelchair that could have been manufactured in 1950. Since the mobility of the handicapped is in society's interest, society can subsidize it, rather than mandating that brick-and-mortar businesses do so.

greenyouse 10y ago
Sort of a tangent but have you seen the iBot chairs? They can climb stairs. It's pretty cool to watch!
mcguire 10y ago
This is true. For example, carrying an apartment's worth of furniture up to the 7th floor will drastically improve your cardiovascular health. Or kill you.

pinaceae 10y ago

Vienna retro-fitted every subway station with wheelchair and stroller compatible elevators. Don't discount the latter, so much easier for parents to use the subway that way. It totally can be done. The US carved off a slice of every sidewalk to allow for ramps for wheelchairs, nationwide.

cameldrv 10y ago
It's simpler in Vienna though because they have a proof of payment system. You just need one elevator to the platform. In NY, you need one to the turnstiles, and then another one to the platform.
- Markoff 10y ago
  why they use actually turnstiles in NY? seem very inefficient on par with jams i experienced in Beijing which user them too though i can understand need for them in China where people even refill their bottles in IKEA at self serving driving machines, but one would think that Americans are more honest
coddingtonbear 10y ago
Your might not be from the US, so I can understand how you might have such an impression, but wheelchair ramps, although universal for new construction, are usually not installed until either new construction occurs nearby or the sidewalk itself needs to be replaced unless a high traffic street. For example, although I think the installation of wheelchair ramps on sidewalks has been going on for at least 30 years, probably only about half of the curbs in my relatively-urban neighborhood have ramps.

maxxxxx 10y ago

When we were in Paris last year my girlfriend broke her foot and I had to push her around in a wheelchair. It's a real pain to see that some elevator is not working and you have to walk half a mile to find the next one. Since then I have much more respect for people who have to deal with this every day.

ufmace 10y ago

This article paints a pretty negative view of it, but looking at the numbers, that might not be the case: 425 stations total 92 stations accessible Boston has 53 stations, with "90% wheelchair accessible", sounds like 48 to me. So "lousy" NYC has almost double the number of wheelchair accessible stations as "great" Boston, and 8 times the total number of stations. Sadly, retrofitting more elevators into existing stations, especially many of the smaller ones, is a tough sell. It would at least be nice if they could do a better job of maintaining them and keeping track of the ones that are down and what the best alternative route is. And the program, mentioned elsewhere in this thread, to provide discounted van service, is probably much better, considering the challenge of getting to and between stations when disabled.

nkoren 10y ago
> So "lousy" NYC has almost double the number of wheelchair accessible stations as "great" Boston, and 8 times the total number of stations. That's comparing apples to watermelons. Boston has a population of 650,000; New York, 8.5 million. So in Boston there is one accessible station per 13,500 residents. In New York, one per 92,400 residents. (The total residents per station is much more comparable, at 12.2k and 20k respectively). This suggests that a more like-for-like basis, New York is roughly 4 to 7 times less accessible than Boston. Edit: Actually, here's a better way to think about it, which does work a bit more in New York's favor. A variant of Metcalfe's law[1] applies to transport networks, in that the utility of a network is proportional to the total number of journeys that can be taken within it. So Boston has (48^2 - 48)/2 = 1,128 accessible origin/destination pairs, while NYC has 4,186 O/D pairs. So 1.73 accessible O/D pairs per thousand residents in Boston, versus 0.49 in New York. For an able-bodied resident, Boston provides 2.12 trips per thousand residents, 10.6 trips per thousand residents for NYC. So if you're not in a wheelchair, then NYC is five times better than Boston. But if you are in a wheelchair, then NYC is 3.5 times worse. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe's_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe's_law
- rrdharan 10y ago
  Isn't the better population comparison the MSAs (metropolitan statistical areas)? For Boston that's ~5M and for NYC it's ~20M. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Boston https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Boston

perseusprime11 10y ago

I don't agree that New York has a Great Subway. It is really dirty. The homeless people use it as their home as they don't have any where else to go.

charles-salvia 10y ago
It runs 24 hours and extensively covers 4 of the 5 boroughs. Yes, it's dirty, but the coverage + availability is what makes it a great system - it's certainly unparalleled in the Western hemisphere. Everytime I go to San Francisco I realize how awesome the NYC subway really is.

Clanan 10y ago

I remember reading the news story about the author's accident. Very interesting/sobering to read about life since then. More on topic, I'm considering a move to NYC and the thought of navigating the city with young kids is almost stressful itself.

Findy3ti 10y ago

Zach Anner recently did something similar showing just how long it takes to get across New York when in a wheelchair https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhpUJRGrZgc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhpUJRGrZgc