5 ms·

Maybe people end up shunning the companies and goods made by robots. People return to a barter system.

by tmaly 10y ago

theamk 10y ago
How would barter system prevent the goods made by robots? As long as robot-employing countries remain, they will still produce cheaper goods. All this means is that if I need a pencil, I will go to my local "trader" to barter things I have for imported, industrially-produced pencils. even with shipping, a pencil factory overseas will still produce much cheaper pencils that artisanal pencil maker. More technologically advanced items would be even worse. If you want people to shun goods made by robots, you should campaign for visible "MADE BY ROBOTS" markings on relevant products, educate people why this is bad, and maybe also tax such produce extra for a good measure. Of course, it may not work very well, may have an opposite effect (see "Made In Germany" story), and will definitely introduce potential for abuse and gaming of the system.
ashark 10y ago
Trend so far has been: lots of very bad but cheap products made by machines with as little use of materials as possible (we keep getting better at determining what the smallest amount is, so everything keeps getting worse!), with some variety in price and quality but all basically crap, and at the far opposite end much better but very expensive goods, often with at least some human involvement, if not wholly handmade. Economies of scale and competition don't kick in enough to reduce the prices on the top end much, and the potential middle of well-made and designed with good materials, but by machines and cutting some corners, is a no-man's land where there's no profit to be had. If there's anyone serving the midrange they're selling a brand and image mostly, not providing a much better product than the low end, and just collecting more profit. There are exceptions, but the world I see as served by capitalism is one of cheap, frustrating crap that keeps optimizing toward even worse quality, and overpriced (overpriced compared to an imagined world where the magic of market efficiency were brought to bear on it) nice things, and little in between. So much for choice. So I don't see anyone deciding to pay 10x what the crap costs (no economies of scale kicking in or it'd be 3-4x, in a perfect world, but hey) and 1/3 what luxury goods cost for handmade mid-range. They'll bump up and have real quality plus the public image and ego-boost that goes with it, or have 10x as much crap-tier stuff instead. This is in part because people want more stuff, all other thing being equal, and in part because no-one's got the time to figure out how to evaluate quality in more than a small fraction of what they buy (this is why the mid-range is a no-man's land—your market is budget conscious but discerning, educated consumers, which is to say, you're screwed). The consequence is that without regulation setting a highish floor on how awful products can be, we get the deep bathtub shaped graph of supply on the Y and Price/quality on the X, necessarily. There's no room for semi-affordable goods with a human touch. That's just how it is. :-/ Also, nitpick: per Graeber, barter is where you go forward from money when money is temporarily not working, not something that you return to from money, since it didn't, in any meaningful way, represent a step on the way to money.
- tboyd47 10y ago
  It could be the lack of a mid-range is more of a consequence of people not having any expendable income after rent, bills, health care, child care, etc., than an essential feature of capitalism. If I had a bigger budget for personal items, I would pay $60 or more for a really nice, durable, comfortable pair of jeans, as opposed to just going to Walmart and buying the same crappy pair for $19.99 every month or so. Same goes for most things I buy, like cars, furniture, food, etc. But somehow, my rent, bills, health care costs, food costs, etc. just keep getting higher while my monthly income remains roughly constant. So I keep buying trash. Also, the ever-rising high-end of the market gets lifted up partially by easy access to credit. If fewer people had access to credit cards, maybe those high-end products would gravitate more towards the mid-range as well.
  - ashark 10y ago
    I really think it's the education issue. To be able to buy confidently in the mid-range without regulatory protections ensuring that things cannot be under mid-range (talking quality-wise) you have to know a lot. To do that for a substantial fraction of what you buy you have to practically be an expert at buying, with lots of knowledge and adept at spotting scammers. Ain't no-one got time for that (unless that actually is their job). The quality bathtub graph falls out of that. Not enough confident mid-range buyers to pay 10x the crap price, so you never get to a scale where you can (and/or are forced to by competition) drop to 4-5x the crap price (multipliers pulled from thin air, obviously, and are just representative of some real values). [EDIT] in fact, to take your example, you may need to know at least a little about jeans to be sure the $60 jeans will last at least 3x as long as the $20 ones, and with more knowledge and time shopping you might be able to find a $40 pair that'd last even longer than the $60 ones. The fact that the $60 pair might still be crap is the real problem.
  - dublinben 10y ago
    You may be exaggerating, but if you really are buying $20 jeans every month I think you've fallen into the trap of cheap boots that Vimes described. A decent pair of jeans may cost several times more, but will last you for years.
Malic 10y ago
Define "robot". Much of automation doesn't come from something that looks like it has arms and a head with eyes in it. CNC machines have been around for decades, effectively are robots, but just don't look like what we might consider a robot making goods.
delecti 10y ago
If people don't shun companies that use sweatshop labor, which can border on slave labor (if not actually being such) then I doubt they would shun robot labor.
Arizhel 10y ago
Good luck using a smartphone made by humans. It isn't physically possible to do.
- cr0sh 10y ago
  I get what you're saying. So maybe not the sleek and stylish ones - but you can build your own smartphone, if you're willing to forego it being stylish. A Raspi Zero W, plus a 3G (or 4G if you want to spend the money) module, plus a few other sensors and a screen - and a 3D printed case, etc - are virtually all you need. Again, though - not most people's idea of a smartphone (I've given thought about building such a thing, though).
  - Arizhel 10y ago
    No, you really cannot build a smartphone. I'd really like to see you make an ARM CPU by hand, just using a silicon wafer. Or solder a modern BGA package reliably without a reflow oven. >and a 3D printed case That's not allowed. The requirement was for something "hand made". 3D printing is robotic, so you can't do that. You have to make the case by hand from a block of plastic with unpowered hand tools.
  - detaro 10y ago
    Does it really make that much of a difference that the final assembly is done by humans instead of machines? The parts you propose using are all clearly not hand made, and in many cases can't really be. It could be interesting from a product design/flexibility perspective, but that's a different axis of concern IMHO.
nols 10y ago
People said the same thing about companies offshoring jobs, consumers like low cost, acceptable quality items, whether it's American labor, offshore labor, or robots.

Maybe people end up shunning the companies and goods made by robots. People return to a barter system.

by tmaly 10y ago

Maybe people end up shunning the companies and goods made by robots. People return to a barter system.

How would barter system prevent the goods made by robots? As long as robot-employing countries remain, they will still produce cheaper goods. All this means is that if I need a pencil, I will go to my local "trader" to barter things I have for imported, industrially-produced pencils. even with shipping, a pencil factory overseas will still produce much cheaper pencils that artisanal pencil maker. More technologically advanced items would be even worse. If you want people to shun goods made by robots, you should campaign for visible "MADE BY ROBOTS" markings on relevant products, educate people why this is bad, and maybe also tax such produce extra for a good measure. Of course, it may not work very well, may have an opposite effect (see "Made In Germany" story), and will definitely introduce potential for abuse and gaming of the system.

ashark 10y ago

Trend so far has been: lots of very bad but cheap products made by machines with as little use of materials as possible (we keep getting better at determining what the smallest amount is, so everything keeps getting worse!), with some variety in price and quality but all basically crap, and at the far opposite end much better but very expensive goods, often with at least some human involvement, if not wholly handmade. Economies of scale and competition don't kick in enough to reduce the prices on the top end much, and the potential middle of well-made and designed with good materials, but by machines and cutting some corners, is a no-man's land where there's no profit to be had. If there's anyone serving the midrange they're selling a brand and image mostly, not providing a much better product than the low end, and just collecting more profit. There are exceptions, but the world I see as served by capitalism is one of cheap, frustrating crap that keeps optimizing toward even worse quality, and overpriced (overpriced compared to an imagined world where the magic of market efficiency were brought to bear on it) nice things, and little in between. So much for choice. So I don't see anyone deciding to pay 10x what the crap costs (no economies of scale kicking in or it'd be 3-4x, in a perfect world, but hey) and 1/3 what luxury goods cost for handmade mid-range. They'll bump up and have real quality plus the public image and ego-boost that goes with it, or have 10x as much crap-tier stuff instead. This is in part because people want more stuff, all other thing being equal, and in part because no-one's got the time to figure out how to evaluate quality in more than a small fraction of what they buy (this is why the mid-range is a no-man's land—your market is budget conscious but discerning, educated consumers, which is to say, you're screwed). The consequence is that without regulation setting a highish floor on how awful products can be, we get the deep bathtub shaped graph of supply on the Y and Price/quality on the X, necessarily. There's no room for semi-affordable goods with a human touch. That's just how it is. :-/ Also, nitpick: per Graeber, barter is where you go forward from money when money is temporarily not working, not something that you return to from money, since it didn't, in any meaningful way, represent a step on the way to money.

tboyd47 10y ago
It could be the lack of a mid-range is more of a consequence of people not having any expendable income after rent, bills, health care, child care, etc., than an essential feature of capitalism. If I had a bigger budget for personal items, I would pay $60 or more for a really nice, durable, comfortable pair of jeans, as opposed to just going to Walmart and buying the same crappy pair for $19.99 every month or so. Same goes for most things I buy, like cars, furniture, food, etc. But somehow, my rent, bills, health care costs, food costs, etc. just keep getting higher while my monthly income remains roughly constant. So I keep buying trash. Also, the ever-rising high-end of the market gets lifted up partially by easy access to credit. If fewer people had access to credit cards, maybe those high-end products would gravitate more towards the mid-range as well.
- ashark 10y ago
  I really think it's the education issue. To be able to buy confidently in the mid-range without regulatory protections ensuring that things cannot be under mid-range (talking quality-wise) you have to know a lot. To do that for a substantial fraction of what you buy you have to practically be an expert at buying, with lots of knowledge and adept at spotting scammers. Ain't no-one got time for that (unless that actually is their job). The quality bathtub graph falls out of that. Not enough confident mid-range buyers to pay 10x the crap price, so you never get to a scale where you can (and/or are forced to by competition) drop to 4-5x the crap price (multipliers pulled from thin air, obviously, and are just representative of some real values). [EDIT] in fact, to take your example, you may need to know at least a little about jeans to be sure the $60 jeans will last at least 3x as long as the $20 ones, and with more knowledge and time shopping you might be able to find a $40 pair that'd last even longer than the $60 ones. The fact that the $60 pair might still be crap is the real problem.
- dublinben 10y ago
  You may be exaggerating, but if you really are buying $20 jeans every month I think you've fallen into the trap of cheap boots that Vimes described. A decent pair of jeans may cost several times more, but will last you for years.

Malic 10y ago

Define "robot". Much of automation doesn't come from something that looks like it has arms and a head with eyes in it. CNC machines have been around for decades, effectively are robots, but just don't look like what we might consider a robot making goods.

delecti 10y ago

If people don't shun companies that use sweatshop labor, which can border on slave labor (if not actually being such) then I doubt they would shun robot labor.

Arizhel 10y ago

Good luck using a smartphone made by humans. It isn't physically possible to do.

cr0sh 10y ago
I get what you're saying. So maybe not the sleek and stylish ones - but you can build your own smartphone, if you're willing to forego it being stylish. A Raspi Zero W, plus a 3G (or 4G if you want to spend the money) module, plus a few other sensors and a screen - and a 3D printed case, etc - are virtually all you need. Again, though - not most people's idea of a smartphone (I've given thought about building such a thing, though).
- Arizhel 10y ago
  No, you really cannot build a smartphone. I'd really like to see you make an ARM CPU by hand, just using a silicon wafer. Or solder a modern BGA package reliably without a reflow oven. >and a 3D printed case That's not allowed. The requirement was for something "hand made". 3D printing is robotic, so you can't do that. You have to make the case by hand from a block of plastic with unpowered hand tools.
- detaro 10y ago
  Does it really make that much of a difference that the final assembly is done by humans instead of machines? The parts you propose using are all clearly not hand made, and in many cases can't really be. It could be interesting from a product design/flexibility perspective, but that's a different axis of concern IMHO.

nols 10y ago

People said the same thing about companies offshoring jobs, consumers like low cost, acceptable quality items, whether it's American labor, offshore labor, or robots.