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Indeed, the cultural "importance" will be revealed in time. However, I fear not in the way you intend. There used to be a time when we as a society valued thin

Indeed, the cultural "importance" will be revealed in time. However, I fear not in the way you intend. There used to be a time when we as a society valued things like self-control, discipline, and tradition. No more. What you are alluding to here is a world where we are ruled by our emotions and our basest desires without the fear or potential for having to deal with our actions. To divorce sex from children is to misunderstand intimacy, the family, and the entire underpinning of our society. EDIT: Yeah, I know conservative positions on HN are ways to make your Karma go down, but hey, that's what forums are for right, to have your opinions regarded as trolling instead of interacting with them, right?

pdelbarba 10y ago
This is the same argument that was made when the pill came about.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  As well as Gardasil. A vaccine that friggin prevents cancer is somehow controversial! What the actual fuck?!
elmigranto 10y ago
> To divorce sex from children is to misunderstand intimacy, the family, and the entire underpinning of our society. Yeah? Well, you know, that's just like, your opinion, man.
and0 10y ago
A million times no to everything you just said.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
pjc50 10y ago
Marie Stopes would like a word with you from beyond the grave. Seriously, we've had modern birth control for a century. Not only has society not collapsed but a whole number of hidden evils have been abolished (Tuam passim), and needless poverty avoided. It's our perfect anti-Malthusian weapon. This is Hacker News in the 21st century. Tradition alone is a terrible reason to do things. I'm astonished that your comment seems to have been upvoted here. Edit: I'm trying to keep it civil but I'm really disappointed not just that this appears on HN but it's sitting at the top of its thread tree not greyed out at the bottom. Oh, and it's "alluding" not "eluding".
- gum_ina_package 10y ago
  Sure society hasn't collapsed, but we've lost a lot all in the name of "progress".
  - YCode 10y ago
    What all have we lost due to birth control?
    - watwut 10y ago
      Teenage pregnancies dropped down ... people can have regular sex without having 7 children ... horrible ...
    - tlb 10y ago
      Before birth control, it was an accomplishment one could be proud of to have children at the right time. It required stable relationships and self-control. Your family and church would give you a lot of respect if you succeeded, and contempt if you failed. It was a test that separated the virtuous from the lazy, weak, and sinful. When such hardships are made optional by technological or social progress, most find new challenges to conquer but many regret their loss. Birth control is old news in the Western world. But the cycle will repeat with new technologies. Suppose you're serious about fitness, you spend hours every week spinning and cross-fitting, and your abs are rippling. And tomorrow, a pill is developed that lets everyone be perfectly fit with zero effort. What do you get for all your hours at the gym? Can you imagine being bummed that everyone else is getting for free what you worked so hard for? That might give some idea what pre-birth-control nostalgia is like.
stronglikedan 10y ago
Nah, sex is for pleasure or for children (and pleasure), depending on how you practice it. Self-control is still very much valued (at least in my society). The self-control bit is using the available contraceptives when you're only having sex for pleasure.
Nagyman 10y ago
Are you trolling? Many people do not want a family. We have a sizeable population problem and many unwanted children are already born into poor conditions. Safe sex is important, but "self-control", implying denying oneself sex, is a choice you can make, but certainly most would not. The "tradition" in the past was (still is in many places) patriarchal oppression and to expect or TAKE sex, forcefully if necessary. Colour me unimpressed by tradition.
elastic_church 10y ago
> There used to be a time when we as a society valued things like self-control, discipline, and tradition. No more. Despite those values it never worked for preventing children. A lot of us here just accept that reality and are open to removing the human element from it.
xbryanx 10y ago
"There used to be a time when we as a society valued things like self-control, discipline, and tradition. No more." What evidence do you have for this fantasy? The extremely high number of children per family/couple before contraception came along?
throwawaysperm 10y ago
No, there is no absolute moral imperative of sex, not without throwing in a healthy dose of religious belief.
criddell 10y ago
Are you really claiming to have a superior understanding of intimacy, family, and the underpinnings of society?
throwaway9475 10y ago
Okay, I'm going to interact with your opinion: it's based on a mountain of lies and fallacies and that's why you're being downvoted. > There used to be a time when we as a society valued things like self-control, discipline, and tradition. No more. Is that also the time when people died from rubella and mumps, or when women weren't allowed to vote? Usually an appeal to a bygone era is a secret yearning to go back to a time when the holder of that view had more power over others who now have equality. > What you are alluding to here is a world where we are ruled by our emotions and our basest desires without the fear or potential for having to deal with our actions. Yeah, because humans /never/ let themselves get ruled by emotions for the first ~100,000 years of history. /s > To divorce set from children is to misunderstand intimacy, the family, and the entire underpinning of our society. And yet, I (a man) had some lovely martinis with my poly boyfriend last night before falling asleep with him. Today, I'm being productive and contributing money to our gorgeous house, and contributing to both my local economy and my various levels of government by paying a decent portion in taxes. Tonight I think I'll spend time with friends and our lives will all be that much better for spending time together. But please, tell me more about how my lack of child-bearing sex is ruining society.
- E6300 10y ago
  > Usually an appeal to a bygone era is a secret yearning to go back to a time when the holder of that view had more power over others who now have equality. I don't agree with the GP at all, but I think you're reading something that just isn't there.
nommm-nommm 10y ago
Check out the CDC stats. Teenagers today are actually abstaining from sex at higher rates then ever before and the teen pregnancy rate has dropped by HALF over the course of the last 25 years. So tell me about the other magical time where there was more "self-control, discipline, and tradition" among teenagers than now? By the way, we've been controlling our fertility since the sexual revolution which started around half a century ago. Since our society hasn't collapsed in 50 years I can assume additional and safer options to control our fertility won't bring a collapse.
- adrienne 10y ago
  We've been controlling our fertility since the beginning of recorded history. There's a plant, silphium, that went extinct in the ancient Near East because it was overharvested as an effective abortifacient.
glibgil 10y ago
> There used to be a time when we as a society valued things like self-control, discipline, and tradition No, no there has never been a time. People in the past were just big liars. People have always done whatever they want. The only difference today is that many people have the option of being honest about it

pdelbarba 10y ago

This is the same argument that was made when the pill came about.

nommm-nommm 10y ago
As well as Gardasil. A vaccine that friggin prevents cancer is somehow controversial! What the actual fuck?!

elmigranto 10y ago

> To divorce sex from children is to misunderstand intimacy, the family, and the entire underpinning of our society. Yeah? Well, you know, that's just like, your opinion, man.

and0 10y ago

A million times no to everything you just said.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

pjc50 10y ago

Marie Stopes would like a word with you from beyond the grave. Seriously, we've had modern birth control for a century. Not only has society not collapsed but a whole number of hidden evils have been abolished (Tuam passim), and needless poverty avoided. It's our perfect anti-Malthusian weapon. This is Hacker News in the 21st century. Tradition alone is a terrible reason to do things. I'm astonished that your comment seems to have been upvoted here. Edit: I'm trying to keep it civil but I'm really disappointed not just that this appears on HN but it's sitting at the top of its thread tree not greyed out at the bottom. Oh, and it's "alluding" not "eluding".

gum_ina_package 10y ago
Sure society hasn't collapsed, but we've lost a lot all in the name of "progress".
- YCode 10y ago
  What all have we lost due to birth control?
  - watwut 10y ago
    Teenage pregnancies dropped down ... people can have regular sex without having 7 children ... horrible ...
  - tlb 10y ago
    Before birth control, it was an accomplishment one could be proud of to have children at the right time. It required stable relationships and self-control. Your family and church would give you a lot of respect if you succeeded, and contempt if you failed. It was a test that separated the virtuous from the lazy, weak, and sinful. When such hardships are made optional by technological or social progress, most find new challenges to conquer but many regret their loss. Birth control is old news in the Western world. But the cycle will repeat with new technologies. Suppose you're serious about fitness, you spend hours every week spinning and cross-fitting, and your abs are rippling. And tomorrow, a pill is developed that lets everyone be perfectly fit with zero effort. What do you get for all your hours at the gym? Can you imagine being bummed that everyone else is getting for free what you worked so hard for? That might give some idea what pre-birth-control nostalgia is like.

stronglikedan 10y ago

Nah, sex is for pleasure or for children (and pleasure), depending on how you practice it. Self-control is still very much valued (at least in my society). The self-control bit is using the available contraceptives when you're only having sex for pleasure.

Nagyman 10y ago

Are you trolling? Many people do not want a family. We have a sizeable population problem and many unwanted children are already born into poor conditions. Safe sex is important, but "self-control", implying denying oneself sex, is a choice you can make, but certainly most would not. The "tradition" in the past was (still is in many places) patriarchal oppression and to expect or TAKE sex, forcefully if necessary. Colour me unimpressed by tradition.

elastic_church 10y ago

> There used to be a time when we as a society valued things like self-control, discipline, and tradition. No more. Despite those values it never worked for preventing children. A lot of us here just accept that reality and are open to removing the human element from it.

xbryanx 10y ago

"There used to be a time when we as a society valued things like self-control, discipline, and tradition. No more." What evidence do you have for this fantasy? The extremely high number of children per family/couple before contraception came along?

throwawaysperm 10y ago

No, there is no absolute moral imperative of sex, not without throwing in a healthy dose of religious belief.

criddell 10y ago

Are you really claiming to have a superior understanding of intimacy, family, and the underpinnings of society?

throwaway9475 10y ago

Okay, I'm going to interact with your opinion: it's based on a mountain of lies and fallacies and that's why you're being downvoted. > There used to be a time when we as a society valued things like self-control, discipline, and tradition. No more. Is that also the time when people died from rubella and mumps, or when women weren't allowed to vote? Usually an appeal to a bygone era is a secret yearning to go back to a time when the holder of that view had more power over others who now have equality. > What you are alluding to here is a world where we are ruled by our emotions and our basest desires without the fear or potential for having to deal with our actions. Yeah, because humans /never/ let themselves get ruled by emotions for the first ~100,000 years of history. /s > To divorce set from children is to misunderstand intimacy, the family, and the entire underpinning of our society. And yet, I (a man) had some lovely martinis with my poly boyfriend last night before falling asleep with him. Today, I'm being productive and contributing money to our gorgeous house, and contributing to both my local economy and my various levels of government by paying a decent portion in taxes. Tonight I think I'll spend time with friends and our lives will all be that much better for spending time together. But please, tell me more about how my lack of child-bearing sex is ruining society.

E6300 10y ago
> Usually an appeal to a bygone era is a secret yearning to go back to a time when the holder of that view had more power over others who now have equality. I don't agree with the GP at all, but I think you're reading something that just isn't there.

nommm-nommm 10y ago

Check out the CDC stats. Teenagers today are actually abstaining from sex at higher rates then ever before and the teen pregnancy rate has dropped by HALF over the course of the last 25 years. So tell me about the other magical time where there was more "self-control, discipline, and tradition" among teenagers than now? By the way, we've been controlling our fertility since the sexual revolution which started around half a century ago. Since our society hasn't collapsed in 50 years I can assume additional and safer options to control our fertility won't bring a collapse.

adrienne 10y ago
We've been controlling our fertility since the beginning of recorded history. There's a plant, silphium, that went extinct in the ancient Near East because it was overharvested as an effective abortifacient.

glibgil 10y ago

> There used to be a time when we as a society valued things like self-control, discipline, and tradition No, no there has never been a time. People in the past were just big liars. People have always done whatever they want. The only difference today is that many people have the option of being honest about it