16 ms·

Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

118 points by jesslynnrose 10y ago

paulajohnson 10y ago
The drain in brains goes mainly west in planes.
- akie 10y ago
  Actually, the people mentioned in the article are mainly going east or south.
- Tepix 10y ago
  Not with Trump looming in the west.
- ben_w 10y ago
  I considered Silicon Valley until I realised how different UK and US politics are. Extreme right wing in the UK is a bit to the left of Obama. If the EU does collapse, I'll consider Canada.
kalekold 10y ago
> The loss of a handful of technologists might not feel immediately urgent but may signal a larger trend. ...and it may not. More brexit fear-mongering.
blowski 10y ago
A few anecdotes doesn't count as evidence. I voted for Remain, and hope very much that the Brexit process collapses and we end up staying in the EU. But I also don't want to spend the next 2 years being drip-fed poor quality articles about how we're going to hell in a handbasket.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- jacquesm 10y ago
  I think that the chances of the Brexit process collapsing just collapsed themselves. The only way to do that was to not trigger Article 50.
  - jamiethompson 10y ago
    Whilst you're perhaps correct, it's still not clear what triggering Article 50 actually means in practice. It's never been done and it's clear that the process was never really designed with a view to ever be invoked.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      Well, once that's done as far as I understand it there is no way back, agreement or not, the clock ticks and after 2 years are up the separation is a fact. If people are hoping for a collapse of the Brexit after that point they are delusional, the only way this would reverse after that is by a new application, and I really don't see that ending up with the UK being in a better position after such a process than they have today. All kinds of exceptions were made to keep the UK in the EU, those are extremely unlikely to be granted a second time, especially not if the UK falls apart and Scotland ends up remaining. The British prime minister is now making a strong play to pull Scotland out of the EU against their wishes, we'll likely see a race between the 'brexit' negotiators on the UK side and the Scottish 'remain' camp who will try to stay in without first exiting. This is understandable from all points of view, the British government would rather like to negotiate from a slightly stronger position and the for the Scots because they were told they had to renegotiate their access to the single market if they seceded from the UK. Now that the British wish to exit that point has become moot which will most likely swing the referendum towards the Scots exiting the union. They probably feel quite cheated in Scotland.
      - pimmen 10y ago
        But what that means in practice is another thing entirely. For example, the DPRK and the ROK are still at war with each other, but that just means that they stare down each other at a border. The UK could be officially outside of the EU but to the banks, universities and import-export companies EU cooperation is as much of a reality as ever. Really powerful entities want to keep their shareholders happy by avoiding complicated regulations on international activities, and they have a lot of political influence. The people of London for example are mighty pissed.
- markatkinson 10y ago
  The paragraph after the heading 'Why This Matters' sort of addresses the fact that it is anecdotal and how it might still have significance. Personally I find the article does read a bit like scaremongering propaganda.
- SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
  If you want data not anecdotes, then it's early days but here you go: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/18/nhs-eu-nurses-quit-record-numbers https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/18/nhs-eu-nurse...
  - davidf18 10y ago
    Don't you think that its strange that the UK can't train enough nurses (sisters) and has to import nurses from poorer countries? I guess the nationwide (near) monopoly on healthcare, the National Health Service (NHS) will have to start paying market prices for nurses as well as start more training programs instead of relying on importing cheaper labor. To say that there aren't enough Brits to do the nursing in a population of 60 million is ridiculous. The elites in Britain (and perhaps the entire wealthier countries of the EU) basically didn't seem to care (and perhaps encouraged) the importation of labor to drive down market prices of labor both for untrained as well as trained labor. In the case of healthcare, it is simply a means for the government to pay less for healthcare than they would if there were a competitive market instead of their monopoly. It wasn't absolutely necessary to have the free flow of labor as part of the EU trade agreement. For example, NAFTA between US, Canada, and Mexico does not allow for the free flow of labor, only the free flow of good. I can't think of any trade agreements that the US has with other countries that allows for the free flow of labor. The free flow of labor benefits elites (think professional hiring nannies, government running health services, companies running factories, firms running high tech needing software developers) to help depress wages. Now the elites of Britain will have to start paying market rates for their labor.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
      > The elites in Britain basically didn't seem to care (and perhaps encouraged) the importation of labor to drive down market prices of labor both for untrained as well as trained labor And you have hit on a basic truth there. A fair part of the vote to leave was because of economic hardship. A fair part of that is because of the perception of "people coming over here and working for less". But every employee has an employer. Government and business can do a lot to set industrial policy, starting with funding for education (for doctors, nurses etc), and minimum wage levels (for field & factory workers). Emphasis on "can". They didn't.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- ncr100 10y ago
  What's the likelihood it will collapse? How could that happen?
- woodandsteel 10y ago
  Agreed, we need data, not just anecdotes. That said, I imagine a lot of skilled workers are going to reason differently than you and leave.
djmobley 10y ago
Foolish and premature. The UK government has not expressed any intention to restrict skilled immigration in industries facing skills shortages. It is totally unrestricted immigration of low-skilled individuals that the government (and it's fair to say the British population) are opposed to.
- mdekkers 10y ago
  It is totally unrestricted immigration of low-skilled individuals that the government (and it's fair to say the British population) are opposed to. This may be the case. Brexit is the dumbest solution to that particular problem though.
  - jerf 10y ago
    Had any other solutions been made available, Brexit probably wouldn't be happening. The EU chose to not make solutions available and stuck it into a "take it or leave it" basket. It seems to me to be a recurring pattern with over-centralized government that they start using more and more of their power this way; you can see it in the US now too, for instance in the way the Trump administration is continuing to saber rattle about either enforcing immigration laws as they choose or cutting off as much Federal funding as they can from cities and states that refuse to comply with their interpretation. It's a very tempting way to exert power, but it makes the system increasingly fragile as you do it, because you eventually get to the point where people start seriously considering and/or triggering the "leave it" option (see also Calexit, for instance; still not very serious but certainly more serious now than it was a year ago).
    - CaptainZapp 10y ago
      The EU chose to not make solutions available and stuck it into a "take it or leave it" basket. What do you suggest the EU should have done? Free movement is one of the cornerstones of the EU and pretty much not up for negootiation. This includes associated countries like Norway or Switzerland. So I'm really curious: What, do you suggest, should the EU have offered?
TorKlingberg 10y ago
I know at least one programmer who is leaving the UK because of Brexit. Personally I am staying put and assuming things will work out ok.
- moomin 10y ago
  I'm staying for now. Don't want to unnecessarily disrupt my family. But if leaving is what's best for them, I'll be out of the door and won't look back. I know a few who have moved on too. Not many, but time will tell.
- 67726e 10y ago
  Are they truly leaving, actually making plans and the like or did they just say they were going to leave because I heard countless friends talk of leaving for Canada if Trump won and not a damn one did.
  - TorKlingberg 10y ago
    He has accepted the new job. Not only because of Brexit of course, there are always multiple reasons for moving. His wife had been getting racist / xenophobic comments.
  - FilterSweep 10y ago
    > and not a damn one did. Since the Patriot Act and other changes in the early 2000s, your nationality is henceforth Sticky if you live in the US. My sister expatriated last year (to UK, actually) from US, and she had to hire an immigration attorney, go through interrogations (from both destination and comefrom), and actually got sent back to the US once they found accidentally conflicting stories from her friends who currently live in the UK. I'd never make fun of people who express desire to leave. Not everyone has the same circumstances as you.
    - 67726e 10y ago
      I have not made fun of everyone, I only pointed out the perennial "flee to Canada" claims in light of the most recent "bad thing."
ben_w 10y ago
I'm one of the soon-to-be-expat Brits. Like Herr Pierzina, I'm also troubled by the IP Act. Moving is really not fun, but move I must: the IP Act is unconscionable in many parts, and Brexit takes away one of the few powers that could fight those parts. Two Home Secretaries in a row that just don't get encryption. My time is split between finishing my novel, learning German, and trying to catch up on tech that came out while I was writing.
- yarper 10y ago
  The home secretaries is only part of it, in his reign David Cameron also spoke of the state not allowing messages it cannot read. I read the news some days and all you can do is laugh. That and plan my ambush on question time... "Theresa! Could you share with us the dates and times you masturbated over the last five years? You've got nothing to hide"
- inputcoffee 10y ago
  There is more tech on heaven and earth, Horatio, then can be caught up amidst your philosophies.
  - ben_w 10y ago
    Oui, aber mit Deutsche, kaj Esperanoto, και Ελληνικά, I think my philosophies may be broader than most. More seriously, I know I would be surprised if more than 5% leave willingly. I don't want to go, I just see no choice. Our collective departure will probably boost the wages for developers who do stay in the UK, but by how much, and against which currencies I would not dare to say — economics is an expert level subject, of which I know only the basics.
    - FilterSweep 10y ago
      I actually would be one of the developers to come in. As bad as your problems are in the UK, the USA are far worse especially with your browser history effectively being able to be sold to the highest bidder[0] Not mentioned([0]) is the fact that hiring and recruiting companies will be able to [ab]use this data [0] http://www.marketwatch.com/story/your-browser-history-could-soon-be-sold-to-advertisers-without-your-consent-2017-03-28 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/your-browser-history-could-...
robk 10y ago
Anecdotally I've heard about more people moving to uk from America than leaving uk for EU over the last few months.
sdiepend 10y ago
good quote from the comments: Overlord_Dave • 11 minutes ago Remember guys and gals, the plural of anecdote is not data
- dijit 10y ago
  The thing is, I agree this article is low quality but the compound nature of brexit+snoopers charter+uncertainty with companies is certainly affecting the attractiveness of the country. I'm British, I left to go work in Sweden for a couple years while my girlfriend finished her studies here, since I've been here we've had _significant_ challenges and erosions of rights and privacy in the UK, the EU (with all its warts) was investing much more in deprived areas of the country than the UK government was (or had done pre-EU). It's bleak, there's a bigger country than just London (which currently carries almost the entire of the rest of the UK financially) and the companies that run there are fickle. There is a self-fulfilling cycle that goes with London, companies go there because it's where the brains are. Brains go there because it's where the companies are. If there is another place companies go, the brains will undoubtedly follow. Then who carries the UK? -- Sorry, this turned into a rant, all I really wanted to say is: Anecdatum is not data; but with enough of it, it can certainly paint a keen picture of the situation for many.
  - user5994461 10y ago
    >>> If there is another place companies go, the brains will undoubtedly follow. Companies want the brain to go there, the brains want the company there to go there. Circular dependency. That's why there are only few tech hubs and they won't change.
jamiethompson 10y ago
It has begun. One of our best developers is moving back to Poland. I can't say I blame him.
- 5040 10y ago
  Surely this is a victory for Poland?
  - TorKlingberg 10y ago
    That depends, are there companies in Poland that can make good use of his specific skills? You cannot ignore the effects of matching people with the jobs where they are most productive. People moving between countries is not a zero sum game.
    - user5994461 10y ago
      There are some decent companies on the tech area. Poland is one of the "cheap" EU countries with decent workers, that's a good reason to have a big office there.
    - 8draco8 10y ago
      A lot has changed in Poland trough past couple years especially for developers. You can now get decent salary in major cities. It's still not as good as in UK where you can have decent salary in cities with population of 30k+ but it's getting there, plus there is always Germany witch is close enough. Quick story. I am working for small UK holidays company located in one of the biggest IT hubs outside of London. Our whole dev team is made up from non UK, EU citizens. Recently we had openings for mid backend dev and junior/mid frontend dev roles and only about 20% of CVs was from native UK citizens (mostly, highly under qualified even for junior role/couldn't pass FizzBuzz). Rest of candidates was mix of EU, visas and double citizenship and we ended up offering both positions to two EU citizens. If UK government will ban employment of people from outside of UK or make it difficult or expensive then small companies like ours will not be able to operate. I see that developers are looking more and more for jobs outside of the UK. Recruiters and EU employers also can see what is going on and I'm receiving more job offers from them, offering help with relocation outside of UK.
elandybarr 10y ago
If the roles they are leaving are truly "in demand", the market will make up for it. For perspective, that feeling of, "Wow! This place is different now" is what some of these same people were imposing on the locals. This article seems like it was solely written to make Leave voters feel guilty and further shame them in the eyes of those who voted Stay. What else could be the point?
pimterry 10y ago
I'm in a similar position: I've recently left (to Spain, working remotely) originally temporarily, but the further this goes the less tempted I am to ever head home. That said, this is all anecdotal. Still, while anecdotes aren't data, they do suggest that there could be some interesting data hidden nearby... Is there any hard research or even just large surveys that are actually looking at this?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
hn_throwaway_99 10y ago
It's at least somewhat ironic, though, that the first person profiled in the article is from Norway, as Norway has always rejected EU membership. If you're upset about Britain leaving the EU, "taking your talents back to Norway" makes it sound like EU membership isn't exactly top of your concerns.
- Certhas 10y ago
  Norway is in the single market though. Not the same as being in the EU but clearly here conflated (and the most significant difference to what the UK wants).
- SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
  > as Norway has always rejected EU membership But Norway is in the European Economic Area, meaning the (all or nothing) agreement for "the free movement of persons, goods, services and capital within the European Single Market". if keeping those freedoms are your concern, then you have every right to prefer Norway over England. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area
  - hn_throwaway_99 10y ago
    But negotiations haven't even started between UK and EU over the terms of the exit and what the relationship will look like in 2 years. Seems this article is trying to take a few anecdotes that have a tenuous relationship at best to Brexit being the real root cause of these people leaving.
    - bengale 10y ago
      Both sides have said we won't be in the single market.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
      The EU have been consistently clear that those freedoms are "all or nothing" - you don't e.g. get free trade without free movement, end of. I would be delighted if England gets the "all" deal like Norway, but that's unlikely since to the Leavers that's a "why bother" Brexit In Name Only.
s3nnyy 10y ago
After Brexit everyone in Zurich thought that all FinTech startups would move from London to Frankfurt or maybe Zurich, since Switzerland has tight relationships with the EU. This did not seem to happen. Also, I haven't gotten more UK people asking me for tech jobs in Zurich compared to before Brexit. (I run a tech recruiting agency; happy to help people who want to move to Switzerland, you finde the recently released job-list here: https://coderfit.catsone.com/careers/ https://coderfit.catsone.com/careers/ - job-descriptions are still WIP, please bear with us)
- jacquesm 10y ago
  I think that one major reason this did not happen so far is because the rest of the EU was hoping the UK would come to their senses and cancel their brexit ambition. Now that it is a fait accompli you can expect all these things to actually happen. Frankfurt has good chances, Amsterdam and Paris a bit less so, Switzerland does not have any better position than London so I fail to see why that would happen if there would be a reason to move. Whoever wants to be represented in Zurich is already there.
- gokhan 10y ago
  Your ability to connect any recruitment related article discussing something local for anywhere in the world to your recruiting agency in Zurich is impressive:) I don't normally recognize people on HN without looking at the nickname but I know it's you all the time :)
  - s3nnyy 10y ago
    Thank you! I honestly primarily try to add value. Some people moved because of these posts, so I hope my outreach has a positive net impact on the HN community.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      > I hope my outreach has a positive net impact on the HN community. And of course on your wallet.
inputcoffee 10y ago
Ultimate Irony: if the Brexit leads to brain drain leads to importing more immigrants.
- bengale 10y ago
  We've already been told this won't lead to a drop in immigration as we need the staff. The power to control it will be ours but we won't be exercising it.
d--b 10y ago
Been there, moved out.
fpp 10y ago
The Brexit is just one of key changes hitting the UK tech working / start-up / corporate environments in the moment. Brexit, IP Act, changes to IR35 (in / out), the £ drop, announcements of major city firms to reduce staff by 30%+, slowing global economies (real not what statistics are telling), UK service price increases of 10% - 20% as seen in the last months or to come with e.g. electricity, IT and communication services in the next weeks. All these contribute to a climate of uncertainty and making the UK less competitive. I've been closely watching various areas of the IT contractor market for the last months - these are normally very good indicators how healthy the industry is / how positive or negative forward looking is. In more than 15 years I have never seen these markets being as bad as they are in the moment. This might all sound very gloomy, but if the UK government continues with their path as seen in the last months, they are burning the ground we all in the UK stand on.
- titraprutr 10y ago
  > In more than 15 years I have never seen these markets being as bad as they are in the moment Care to elaborate a bit on this? I'm genuinely interested.
throwaway_374 10y ago
Curious to get some perspective from (British) Londoners and how they feel about this. Do they not feel cornered out of the market against the top 1% of global talent heading to London? Particularly in tech with insane recruiting procedures.
jwineinger 10y ago
And the final sentences of the piece undermine the rest of it. > Many technologists interviewed will remain in the U.K. through Brexit, citing family ties, work or a desire to stay and effect change at home. While few technologists interviewed offered optimistic outlooks of a post-Brexit British tech scene, many are determined to do what they can in its wake.
cttet 10y ago
No one think of it in another way: they were originally talents in their home country and it is actually the recovery of the "Brain-Drain" of their home country...
frestes76 10y ago
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frestes76 10y ago
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118 points by jesslynnrose 10y ago

paulajohnson 10y ago

The drain in brains goes mainly west in planes.

akie 10y ago
Actually, the people mentioned in the article are mainly going east or south.
Tepix 10y ago
Not with Trump looming in the west.
ben_w 10y ago
I considered Silicon Valley until I realised how different UK and US politics are. Extreme right wing in the UK is a bit to the left of Obama. If the EU does collapse, I'll consider Canada.

kalekold 10y ago

> The loss of a handful of technologists might not feel immediately urgent but may signal a larger trend. ...and it may not. More brexit fear-mongering.

blowski 10y ago

A few anecdotes doesn't count as evidence. I voted for Remain, and hope very much that the Brexit process collapses and we end up staying in the EU. But I also don't want to spend the next 2 years being drip-fed poor quality articles about how we're going to hell in a handbasket.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
jacquesm 10y ago
I think that the chances of the Brexit process collapsing just collapsed themselves. The only way to do that was to not trigger Article 50.
- jamiethompson 10y ago
  Whilst you're perhaps correct, it's still not clear what triggering Article 50 actually means in practice. It's never been done and it's clear that the process was never really designed with a view to ever be invoked.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    Well, once that's done as far as I understand it there is no way back, agreement or not, the clock ticks and after 2 years are up the separation is a fact. If people are hoping for a collapse of the Brexit after that point they are delusional, the only way this would reverse after that is by a new application, and I really don't see that ending up with the UK being in a better position after such a process than they have today. All kinds of exceptions were made to keep the UK in the EU, those are extremely unlikely to be granted a second time, especially not if the UK falls apart and Scotland ends up remaining. The British prime minister is now making a strong play to pull Scotland out of the EU against their wishes, we'll likely see a race between the 'brexit' negotiators on the UK side and the Scottish 'remain' camp who will try to stay in without first exiting. This is understandable from all points of view, the British government would rather like to negotiate from a slightly stronger position and the for the Scots because they were told they had to renegotiate their access to the single market if they seceded from the UK. Now that the British wish to exit that point has become moot which will most likely swing the referendum towards the Scots exiting the union. They probably feel quite cheated in Scotland.
    - pimmen 10y ago
      But what that means in practice is another thing entirely. For example, the DPRK and the ROK are still at war with each other, but that just means that they stare down each other at a border. The UK could be officially outside of the EU but to the banks, universities and import-export companies EU cooperation is as much of a reality as ever. Really powerful entities want to keep their shareholders happy by avoiding complicated regulations on international activities, and they have a lot of political influence. The people of London for example are mighty pissed.
markatkinson 10y ago
The paragraph after the heading 'Why This Matters' sort of addresses the fact that it is anecdotal and how it might still have significance. Personally I find the article does read a bit like scaremongering propaganda.
SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
If you want data not anecdotes, then it's early days but here you go: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/18/nhs-eu-nurses-quit-record-numbers https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/18/nhs-eu-nurse...
- davidf18 10y ago
  Don't you think that its strange that the UK can't train enough nurses (sisters) and has to import nurses from poorer countries? I guess the nationwide (near) monopoly on healthcare, the National Health Service (NHS) will have to start paying market prices for nurses as well as start more training programs instead of relying on importing cheaper labor. To say that there aren't enough Brits to do the nursing in a population of 60 million is ridiculous. The elites in Britain (and perhaps the entire wealthier countries of the EU) basically didn't seem to care (and perhaps encouraged) the importation of labor to drive down market prices of labor both for untrained as well as trained labor. In the case of healthcare, it is simply a means for the government to pay less for healthcare than they would if there were a competitive market instead of their monopoly. It wasn't absolutely necessary to have the free flow of labor as part of the EU trade agreement. For example, NAFTA between US, Canada, and Mexico does not allow for the free flow of labor, only the free flow of good. I can't think of any trade agreements that the US has with other countries that allows for the free flow of labor. The free flow of labor benefits elites (think professional hiring nannies, government running health services, companies running factories, firms running high tech needing software developers) to help depress wages. Now the elites of Britain will have to start paying market rates for their labor.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
    > The elites in Britain basically didn't seem to care (and perhaps encouraged) the importation of labor to drive down market prices of labor both for untrained as well as trained labor And you have hit on a basic truth there. A fair part of the vote to leave was because of economic hardship. A fair part of that is because of the perception of "people coming over here and working for less". But every employee has an employer. Government and business can do a lot to set industrial policy, starting with funding for education (for doctors, nurses etc), and minimum wage levels (for field & factory workers). Emphasis on "can". They didn't.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
ncr100 10y ago
What's the likelihood it will collapse? How could that happen?
woodandsteel 10y ago
Agreed, we need data, not just anecdotes. That said, I imagine a lot of skilled workers are going to reason differently than you and leave.

djmobley 10y ago

Foolish and premature. The UK government has not expressed any intention to restrict skilled immigration in industries facing skills shortages. It is totally unrestricted immigration of low-skilled individuals that the government (and it's fair to say the British population) are opposed to.

mdekkers 10y ago
It is totally unrestricted immigration of low-skilled individuals that the government (and it's fair to say the British population) are opposed to. This may be the case. Brexit is the dumbest solution to that particular problem though.
- jerf 10y ago
  Had any other solutions been made available, Brexit probably wouldn't be happening. The EU chose to not make solutions available and stuck it into a "take it or leave it" basket. It seems to me to be a recurring pattern with over-centralized government that they start using more and more of their power this way; you can see it in the US now too, for instance in the way the Trump administration is continuing to saber rattle about either enforcing immigration laws as they choose or cutting off as much Federal funding as they can from cities and states that refuse to comply with their interpretation. It's a very tempting way to exert power, but it makes the system increasingly fragile as you do it, because you eventually get to the point where people start seriously considering and/or triggering the "leave it" option (see also Calexit, for instance; still not very serious but certainly more serious now than it was a year ago).
  - CaptainZapp 10y ago
    The EU chose to not make solutions available and stuck it into a "take it or leave it" basket. What do you suggest the EU should have done? Free movement is one of the cornerstones of the EU and pretty much not up for negootiation. This includes associated countries like Norway or Switzerland. So I'm really curious: What, do you suggest, should the EU have offered?

TorKlingberg 10y ago

I know at least one programmer who is leaving the UK because of Brexit. Personally I am staying put and assuming things will work out ok.

moomin 10y ago
I'm staying for now. Don't want to unnecessarily disrupt my family. But if leaving is what's best for them, I'll be out of the door and won't look back. I know a few who have moved on too. Not many, but time will tell.
67726e 10y ago
Are they truly leaving, actually making plans and the like or did they just say they were going to leave because I heard countless friends talk of leaving for Canada if Trump won and not a damn one did.
- TorKlingberg 10y ago
  He has accepted the new job. Not only because of Brexit of course, there are always multiple reasons for moving. His wife had been getting racist / xenophobic comments.
- FilterSweep 10y ago
  > and not a damn one did. Since the Patriot Act and other changes in the early 2000s, your nationality is henceforth Sticky if you live in the US. My sister expatriated last year (to UK, actually) from US, and she had to hire an immigration attorney, go through interrogations (from both destination and comefrom), and actually got sent back to the US once they found accidentally conflicting stories from her friends who currently live in the UK. I'd never make fun of people who express desire to leave. Not everyone has the same circumstances as you.
  - 67726e 10y ago
    I have not made fun of everyone, I only pointed out the perennial "flee to Canada" claims in light of the most recent "bad thing."

ben_w 10y ago

I'm one of the soon-to-be-expat Brits. Like Herr Pierzina, I'm also troubled by the IP Act. Moving is really not fun, but move I must: the IP Act is unconscionable in many parts, and Brexit takes away one of the few powers that could fight those parts. Two Home Secretaries in a row that just don't get encryption. My time is split between finishing my novel, learning German, and trying to catch up on tech that came out while I was writing.

yarper 10y ago
The home secretaries is only part of it, in his reign David Cameron also spoke of the state not allowing messages it cannot read. I read the news some days and all you can do is laugh. That and plan my ambush on question time... "Theresa! Could you share with us the dates and times you masturbated over the last five years? You've got nothing to hide"
inputcoffee 10y ago
There is more tech on heaven and earth, Horatio, then can be caught up amidst your philosophies.
- ben_w 10y ago
  Oui, aber mit Deutsche, kaj Esperanoto, και Ελληνικά, I think my philosophies may be broader than most. More seriously, I know I would be surprised if more than 5% leave willingly. I don't want to go, I just see no choice. Our collective departure will probably boost the wages for developers who do stay in the UK, but by how much, and against which currencies I would not dare to say — economics is an expert level subject, of which I know only the basics.
  - FilterSweep 10y ago
    I actually would be one of the developers to come in. As bad as your problems are in the UK, the USA are far worse especially with your browser history effectively being able to be sold to the highest bidder[0] Not mentioned([0]) is the fact that hiring and recruiting companies will be able to [ab]use this data [0] http://www.marketwatch.com/story/your-browser-history-could-soon-be-sold-to-advertisers-without-your-consent-2017-03-28 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/your-browser-history-could-...

robk 10y ago

Anecdotally I've heard about more people moving to uk from America than leaving uk for EU over the last few months.

sdiepend 10y ago

good quote from the comments: Overlord_Dave • 11 minutes ago Remember guys and gals, the plural of anecdote is not data

dijit 10y ago
The thing is, I agree this article is low quality but the compound nature of brexit+snoopers charter+uncertainty with companies is certainly affecting the attractiveness of the country. I'm British, I left to go work in Sweden for a couple years while my girlfriend finished her studies here, since I've been here we've had _significant_ challenges and erosions of rights and privacy in the UK, the EU (with all its warts) was investing much more in deprived areas of the country than the UK government was (or had done pre-EU). It's bleak, there's a bigger country than just London (which currently carries almost the entire of the rest of the UK financially) and the companies that run there are fickle. There is a self-fulfilling cycle that goes with London, companies go there because it's where the brains are. Brains go there because it's where the companies are. If there is another place companies go, the brains will undoubtedly follow. Then who carries the UK? -- Sorry, this turned into a rant, all I really wanted to say is: Anecdatum is not data; but with enough of it, it can certainly paint a keen picture of the situation for many.
- user5994461 10y ago
  >>> If there is another place companies go, the brains will undoubtedly follow. Companies want the brain to go there, the brains want the company there to go there. Circular dependency. That's why there are only few tech hubs and they won't change.

jamiethompson 10y ago

It has begun. One of our best developers is moving back to Poland. I can't say I blame him.

5040 10y ago
Surely this is a victory for Poland?
- TorKlingberg 10y ago
  That depends, are there companies in Poland that can make good use of his specific skills? You cannot ignore the effects of matching people with the jobs where they are most productive. People moving between countries is not a zero sum game.
  - user5994461 10y ago
    There are some decent companies on the tech area. Poland is one of the "cheap" EU countries with decent workers, that's a good reason to have a big office there.
  - 8draco8 10y ago
    A lot has changed in Poland trough past couple years especially for developers. You can now get decent salary in major cities. It's still not as good as in UK where you can have decent salary in cities with population of 30k+ but it's getting there, plus there is always Germany witch is close enough. Quick story. I am working for small UK holidays company located in one of the biggest IT hubs outside of London. Our whole dev team is made up from non UK, EU citizens. Recently we had openings for mid backend dev and junior/mid frontend dev roles and only about 20% of CVs was from native UK citizens (mostly, highly under qualified even for junior role/couldn't pass FizzBuzz). Rest of candidates was mix of EU, visas and double citizenship and we ended up offering both positions to two EU citizens. If UK government will ban employment of people from outside of UK or make it difficult or expensive then small companies like ours will not be able to operate. I see that developers are looking more and more for jobs outside of the UK. Recruiters and EU employers also can see what is going on and I'm receiving more job offers from them, offering help with relocation outside of UK.

elandybarr 10y ago

If the roles they are leaving are truly "in demand", the market will make up for it. For perspective, that feeling of, "Wow! This place is different now" is what some of these same people were imposing on the locals. This article seems like it was solely written to make Leave voters feel guilty and further shame them in the eyes of those who voted Stay. What else could be the point?

pimterry 10y ago

I'm in a similar position: I've recently left (to Spain, working remotely) originally temporarily, but the further this goes the less tempted I am to ever head home. That said, this is all anecdotal. Still, while anecdotes aren't data, they do suggest that there could be some interesting data hidden nearby... Is there any hard research or even just large surveys that are actually looking at this?

deleted 10y ago
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hn_throwaway_99 10y ago

It's at least somewhat ironic, though, that the first person profiled in the article is from Norway, as Norway has always rejected EU membership. If you're upset about Britain leaving the EU, "taking your talents back to Norway" makes it sound like EU membership isn't exactly top of your concerns.

Certhas 10y ago
Norway is in the single market though. Not the same as being in the EU but clearly here conflated (and the most significant difference to what the UK wants).
SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
> as Norway has always rejected EU membership But Norway is in the European Economic Area, meaning the (all or nothing) agreement for "the free movement of persons, goods, services and capital within the European Single Market". if keeping those freedoms are your concern, then you have every right to prefer Norway over England. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area
- hn_throwaway_99 10y ago
  But negotiations haven't even started between UK and EU over the terms of the exit and what the relationship will look like in 2 years. Seems this article is trying to take a few anecdotes that have a tenuous relationship at best to Brexit being the real root cause of these people leaving.
  - bengale 10y ago
    Both sides have said we won't be in the single market.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
    The EU have been consistently clear that those freedoms are "all or nothing" - you don't e.g. get free trade without free movement, end of. I would be delighted if England gets the "all" deal like Norway, but that's unlikely since to the Leavers that's a "why bother" Brexit In Name Only.

s3nnyy 10y ago

After Brexit everyone in Zurich thought that all FinTech startups would move from London to Frankfurt or maybe Zurich, since Switzerland has tight relationships with the EU. This did not seem to happen. Also, I haven't gotten more UK people asking me for tech jobs in Zurich compared to before Brexit. (I run a tech recruiting agency; happy to help people who want to move to Switzerland, you finde the recently released job-list here: https://coderfit.catsone.com/careers/ https://coderfit.catsone.com/careers/ - job-descriptions are still WIP, please bear with us)

jacquesm 10y ago
I think that one major reason this did not happen so far is because the rest of the EU was hoping the UK would come to their senses and cancel their brexit ambition. Now that it is a fait accompli you can expect all these things to actually happen. Frankfurt has good chances, Amsterdam and Paris a bit less so, Switzerland does not have any better position than London so I fail to see why that would happen if there would be a reason to move. Whoever wants to be represented in Zurich is already there.
gokhan 10y ago
Your ability to connect any recruitment related article discussing something local for anywhere in the world to your recruiting agency in Zurich is impressive:) I don't normally recognize people on HN without looking at the nickname but I know it's you all the time :)
- s3nnyy 10y ago
  Thank you! I honestly primarily try to add value. Some people moved because of these posts, so I hope my outreach has a positive net impact on the HN community.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    > I hope my outreach has a positive net impact on the HN community. And of course on your wallet.

inputcoffee 10y ago

Ultimate Irony: if the Brexit leads to brain drain leads to importing more immigrants.

bengale 10y ago
We've already been told this won't lead to a drop in immigration as we need the staff. The power to control it will be ours but we won't be exercising it.

d--b 10y ago

Been there, moved out.

fpp 10y ago

The Brexit is just one of key changes hitting the UK tech working / start-up / corporate environments in the moment. Brexit, IP Act, changes to IR35 (in / out), the £ drop, announcements of major city firms to reduce staff by 30%+, slowing global economies (real not what statistics are telling), UK service price increases of 10% - 20% as seen in the last months or to come with e.g. electricity, IT and communication services in the next weeks. All these contribute to a climate of uncertainty and making the UK less competitive. I've been closely watching various areas of the IT contractor market for the last months - these are normally very good indicators how healthy the industry is / how positive or negative forward looking is. In more than 15 years I have never seen these markets being as bad as they are in the moment. This might all sound very gloomy, but if the UK government continues with their path as seen in the last months, they are burning the ground we all in the UK stand on.

titraprutr 10y ago
> In more than 15 years I have never seen these markets being as bad as they are in the moment Care to elaborate a bit on this? I'm genuinely interested.

throwaway_374 10y ago

Curious to get some perspective from (British) Londoners and how they feel about this. Do they not feel cornered out of the market against the top 1% of global talent heading to London? Particularly in tech with insane recruiting procedures.

jwineinger 10y ago

And the final sentences of the piece undermine the rest of it. > Many technologists interviewed will remain in the U.K. through Brexit, citing family ties, work or a desire to stay and effect change at home. While few technologists interviewed offered optimistic outlooks of a post-Brexit British tech scene, many are determined to do what they can in its wake.

cttet 10y ago

No one think of it in another way: they were originally talents in their home country and it is actually the recovery of the "Brain-Drain" of their home country...

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frestes76 10y ago