4 ms·

and that's why bills like this pass.

by ignu 10y ago

tbrownaw 10y ago
Right. The only way to stop Kang from ruining everything is to vote for Kodos instead.
- Analemma_ 10y ago
  You can keep using clever witticisms like that if it makes you feel better, and meanwhile bills like this will keep passing along party lines.
  - misnome 10y ago
    So it's the fault of people who vote third party that you have a two-party state?
    - lazyasciiart 10y ago
      No, it would be a two-party state whether or not they voted third party.
    - matt_morgan 10y ago
      It's sensible to ask whether a specific 3rd-party vote had a chance of affecting the outcome in a positive way. E.g., one of the more effective arguments against the current Green party in the US is they don't seem to try very hard in local elections, where they might stand a chance; but they always run someone for president who stands no chance. If we have a hope of getting out of this, it's going to start on school boards and city councils. Prop up your 3rd parties there, but vote the lesser of two evils when it's the most effective thing to do.
      - nebabyte 10y ago
        And it's this kind of impetus that creates voter apathy. If you insist on trying to shove square pegs into a round or triangular hole, you're just going to end up with vote tallies similar to the one you just saw with the national election. As someone who didn't vote, no, I would not have changed my decision given the outcome, and this "lesser of two evils" justification crap is exactly why. Enjoy your shitty country.
        snakeboy 10y ago
        I suppose you will also enjoy the same shitty country? It sounds like you are the apathetic voter in this scenario.
      - Chathamization 10y ago
        Very much this. There are many de facto one party districts in the U.S. where a third party wouldn't run into the issue of being a spoiler. The Vermont Progressive Party only runs candidates like this. The result is that thought they're only active in Vermont, they have 11 seats in the Vermont state legislature. In contrast, the Libertarian Party and the Green Party are across in the entire U.S., and out of all 50 state legislatures they have a combined total of 2 seats (2 for the Libertarians, 0 for the Greens).
    - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
      Two-party? The American federal government is, de facto, a one-party state.
      - defined 10y ago
        Yeah. The Janus party.
        eli_gottlieb 10y ago
        No, the Republican Party. Policy for the last decade has been that Democrats mustn't be allowed to win elections, and should they somehow manage to win elections, they mustn't be allowed to govern. Of course, the Democrats have themselves totally acceded to this scheme.
    - pnathan 10y ago
      third party voters can wind up choosing which of the two parties win. in 2016, they gave Trump the win, because they equated him and the Republicans with Hillary in terms of deleterious effects.
      - chimeracoder 10y ago
        > third party voters can wind up choosing which of the two parties win. in 2016, they gave Trump the win, because they equated him and the Republicans with Hillary in terms of deleterious effects. This is a common line used by leftists who are angry that Trump won and are looking for someone to blame. Third party voters make an easy target, and the left has long felt entitled to the support of third-party voters. But this entitlement assumes that third party voters would otherwise have voted for Clinton, which is a pretty strong assumption that also doesn't really hold up against the polling data from late in the election. Johnson took more than half of the third-party vote, and had he not been running, most Johnson voters would either have voted Trump or not voted at all. Trump didn't win because of the few voters who voted third party. He won because of the 63 million people who voted for him. If you want to blame someone for Trump's victory, blame them, not the 7 million who chose not to vote for Trump.
        aanm1988 10y ago
        He won because of the broken electoral college system which gives us tyranny of the minority.
      - imsofuture 10y ago
        That's an absurd assertion.
- splitrocket 10y ago
  Look up Duverger's law. Effectively, in a first past the post electoral system, any vote that isn't for the major party that most closely aligns with your views is a vote that supports the views least aligned with your preference. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law
  - tbrownaw 10y ago
    I just re-read that article again, and don't really see your claims in in anywhere. I can kinda see how you might draw that conclusion, but I think it's an oversimplification and not really that accurate. I do see some listed counterexamples to the "law", and also a note about occasional upsets where the parties get completely rearranged. If both major parties suck, how do I ask for an upset? Is it by fuming quietly and voting for the lesser of the two evils, or by saying "no, fuck you both"? Or does the fact that any upset probably won't happen this election mean that it's part of "the long run" where per Keynes we're all dead, and so it doesn't actually matter? Do the major parties just ignore any non-major-party vote, or do they analyze it to tweak their platforms for next time? (And, is this consistent over time and space? I'm hearing that it seems to be the case in the US now, but in the same breath I'm hearing that that's a recent localized disaster.)
    - splitrocket 10y ago
      I am in my phone, traveling. The Wikipedia page is a tremendously short summary, and yes, doesn't go into depth about the implications of duverger's law. I strongly suggest digging into the literature around it, which does bear out the thesis I states above. If both parties suck equally and no party is more closely aligned to your preferences than another, I suggest you enter politics yourself. It's just made up of people not too different from yourself.
      - tbrownaw 10y ago
        If both parties suck equally and no party is more closely aligned to your preferences than another, I suggest you enter politics yourself. It's just made up of people not too different from yourself. I've actually thought about that a bit, and don't think I'd enjoy it enough to consistently put in the time needed to ever really get good at it.
- splitrocket 10y ago
  Look up Duverger's law. Effectively, in a first pat the post electoral system, any vote that isn't for the major party that most closely aligns with your views is a vote that supports the views least aligned with your preference. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law

and that's why bills like this pass.

by ignu 10y ago

and that's why bills like this pass.

tbrownaw 10y ago

Right. The only way to stop Kang from ruining everything is to vote for Kodos instead.

Analemma_ 10y ago
You can keep using clever witticisms like that if it makes you feel better, and meanwhile bills like this will keep passing along party lines.
- misnome 10y ago
  So it's the fault of people who vote third party that you have a two-party state?
  - lazyasciiart 10y ago
    No, it would be a two-party state whether or not they voted third party.
  - matt_morgan 10y ago
    It's sensible to ask whether a specific 3rd-party vote had a chance of affecting the outcome in a positive way. E.g., one of the more effective arguments against the current Green party in the US is they don't seem to try very hard in local elections, where they might stand a chance; but they always run someone for president who stands no chance. If we have a hope of getting out of this, it's going to start on school boards and city councils. Prop up your 3rd parties there, but vote the lesser of two evils when it's the most effective thing to do.
    - nebabyte 10y ago
      And it's this kind of impetus that creates voter apathy. If you insist on trying to shove square pegs into a round or triangular hole, you're just going to end up with vote tallies similar to the one you just saw with the national election. As someone who didn't vote, no, I would not have changed my decision given the outcome, and this "lesser of two evils" justification crap is exactly why. Enjoy your shitty country.
      - snakeboy 10y ago
        I suppose you will also enjoy the same shitty country? It sounds like you are the apathetic voter in this scenario.
    - Chathamization 10y ago
      Very much this. There are many de facto one party districts in the U.S. where a third party wouldn't run into the issue of being a spoiler. The Vermont Progressive Party only runs candidates like this. The result is that thought they're only active in Vermont, they have 11 seats in the Vermont state legislature. In contrast, the Libertarian Party and the Green Party are across in the entire U.S., and out of all 50 state legislatures they have a combined total of 2 seats (2 for the Libertarians, 0 for the Greens).
  - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
    Two-party? The American federal government is, de facto, a one-party state.
    - defined 10y ago
      Yeah. The Janus party.
      - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
        No, the Republican Party. Policy for the last decade has been that Democrats mustn't be allowed to win elections, and should they somehow manage to win elections, they mustn't be allowed to govern. Of course, the Democrats have themselves totally acceded to this scheme.
  - pnathan 10y ago
    third party voters can wind up choosing which of the two parties win. in 2016, they gave Trump the win, because they equated him and the Republicans with Hillary in terms of deleterious effects.
    - chimeracoder 10y ago
      > third party voters can wind up choosing which of the two parties win. in 2016, they gave Trump the win, because they equated him and the Republicans with Hillary in terms of deleterious effects. This is a common line used by leftists who are angry that Trump won and are looking for someone to blame. Third party voters make an easy target, and the left has long felt entitled to the support of third-party voters. But this entitlement assumes that third party voters would otherwise have voted for Clinton, which is a pretty strong assumption that also doesn't really hold up against the polling data from late in the election. Johnson took more than half of the third-party vote, and had he not been running, most Johnson voters would either have voted Trump or not voted at all. Trump didn't win because of the few voters who voted third party. He won because of the 63 million people who voted for him. If you want to blame someone for Trump's victory, blame them, not the 7 million who chose not to vote for Trump.
      - aanm1988 10y ago
        He won because of the broken electoral college system which gives us tyranny of the minority.
    - imsofuture 10y ago
      That's an absurd assertion.
splitrocket 10y ago
Look up Duverger's law. Effectively, in a first past the post electoral system, any vote that isn't for the major party that most closely aligns with your views is a vote that supports the views least aligned with your preference. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law
- tbrownaw 10y ago
  I just re-read that article again, and don't really see your claims in in anywhere. I can kinda see how you might draw that conclusion, but I think it's an oversimplification and not really that accurate. I do see some listed counterexamples to the "law", and also a note about occasional upsets where the parties get completely rearranged. If both major parties suck, how do I ask for an upset? Is it by fuming quietly and voting for the lesser of the two evils, or by saying "no, fuck you both"? Or does the fact that any upset probably won't happen this election mean that it's part of "the long run" where per Keynes we're all dead, and so it doesn't actually matter? Do the major parties just ignore any non-major-party vote, or do they analyze it to tweak their platforms for next time? (And, is this consistent over time and space? I'm hearing that it seems to be the case in the US now, but in the same breath I'm hearing that that's a recent localized disaster.)
  - splitrocket 10y ago
    I am in my phone, traveling. The Wikipedia page is a tremendously short summary, and yes, doesn't go into depth about the implications of duverger's law. I strongly suggest digging into the literature around it, which does bear out the thesis I states above. If both parties suck equally and no party is more closely aligned to your preferences than another, I suggest you enter politics yourself. It's just made up of people not too different from yourself.
    - tbrownaw 10y ago
      If both parties suck equally and no party is more closely aligned to your preferences than another, I suggest you enter politics yourself. It's just made up of people not too different from yourself. I've actually thought about that a bit, and don't think I'd enjoy it enough to consistently put in the time needed to ever really get good at it.
splitrocket 10y ago
Look up Duverger's law. Effectively, in a first pat the post electoral system, any vote that isn't for the major party that most closely aligns with your views is a vote that supports the views least aligned with your preference. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law