4 ms·

Not hard. The iSeries is an unmitigated clusterfsck. I still feel like electric is just pushing the pollution somewhere else, but I am glad to see the tech adva

Not hard. The iSeries is an unmitigated clusterfsck. I still feel like electric is just pushing the pollution somewhere else, but I am glad to see the tech advance. I continue to have doubts that the model 3 will be the electric peoples car however.

TehCorwiz 10y ago
Where I live I have the option of 100% community solar, or 100% wind (wind via credit transfer). For me, moving to an all electric vehicle would be a pure carbon reduction.
- jonknee 10y ago
  And even in areas where this is not the case today, it could be in the future (coal plants are shutting down all the time). There is no chance an IC vehicle can become clean in the future.
  - Noughmad 10y ago
    While I agree with the sentiment, IC vehicles have been getting cleaner for some time, and likely will continue in the future. They will never be completely clean, though.
    - jonknee 10y ago
      I meant there is no chance your existing IC vehicle will get cleaner. If you buy a EV and your local coal power plant gets replaced with a natural gas fired plant, your car suddenly got cleaner.
- rhino369 10y ago
  I don't think purchasing Renewable Energy Credits really means you'd see a pure carbon reduction. Some (most?) of that wind power was going to be produced anyway. Buying their credits is just a subsidy. Though economics isn't my forte.
TeMPOraL 10y ago
> I still feel like electric is just pushing the pollution somewhere else In a way it is, but that's the point. Even with fossil fuels, centralized energy production is much more efficient than every car having its own combustion engine, and then electricity is also flexible enough to enable you to switch to green/renewable sources without change for the car and its supporting infrastructure. In a way, electricity is energy abstracted away from the means of its production.
- mi100hael 10y ago
  That's a really good perspective that I hadn't really considered before.
- oblio 10y ago
  I used to think that way, too. And then I remembered that the cheapest form of power generation is using coal, which is extremely abundant. I also remembered that power plants have an expected life span of 50+ years and people are against closing down things which are have already sunk their original cost and now are cheap, effective and provide lots of jobs. It's really hard to say which is the lesser of two evils.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    Getting rid of the coal plants is mostly a separate battle, though. I admit I'm not sure how centralized coal burning compares in emission efficiency to internal combustion engines in cars.
  - ska 10y ago
    And then I remembered that the cheapest form of power generation is using coal, which is extremely abundant. That's not so clear cut when you try and factor in externalized costs (which any proper analysis must)
  - knz 10y ago
    > I also remembered that power plants have an expected life span of 50+ years How much of that infrastructure was built in the post WW2 period so is nearing replacement anyway?
make3 10y ago
you may want to read this : http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green in most cases, turns out electricity is generated in a way that's much more carbon efficient than using gasoline. Electricity from natural gas, for example, has a much better carbon footprint compared to oil. petroleum parity is really the worst case.
xutopia 10y ago
In Quebec we sell electricity to the US for cheap and it's dam water powering turbines that generates it all.
Noughmad 10y ago
In the US, about 2/3 of electricity produced is from fossil fuels. In the EU, this number is about about half, and in Slovenia it's lower than 25%. So with all else being equal, you reduce pollution by somewhere between one third and three quarters. With that out of the way, even just pushing the pollution and noise somewhere else is a big deal, especially in cities. It doesn't matter for global warming, but for quality of life it's much better if fuel burning is happening away from people.
- deelowe 10y ago
  Agreed. Also, a lot of those fossil fuels are now natural gas, which is much less polluting than gasoline. Also, centralizing power generation means it will be much easier to regulate moving forward (power companies are already heavily regulated, so they are accustom to dealing with federal and state initiatives to reduce pollution, cost, etc...)
vernie 10y ago
What's a clusterfsck
- pc86 10y ago
  Thank you. If you want to curse, just curse. I've seen "fuck" on HN dozens of times, and worse too. If you've got some hang up about maintaining the pseudo-professional/intellectual air of HN, just use a different word/phrase altogether.
- tedunangst 10y ago
  It's when you check the whole cloud filesystem all at once. Not sure how it relates to tesla. Maybe the machine learning autopilot?
aidos 10y ago
I have a diesel that's in at the mechanic at the moment because it's blowing plumes of blueish smoke every now and again. 4 different mechanics have all had different theories (ECG valve, turbo, air supply system, injectors) so as a result I've had to learn a lot about it myself because I no longer trust any of them. Currently I'm starting to think the issue is with the DPF (diesel particulate filter) system which is responsible for pulling the soot out of the exhaust. The extra soot is the result of reburning the exhaust in a 2nd combustion to try to keep the emissions down. There's then another process (DPF regeneration) that pumps extra diesel into the engine during the exhaust stroke to try to burn the carbon particles out of the DPF to keep it clean. Stopping to think about the horrors of the filthy process that goes on inside all of these vehicles is eye opening, to say the least. I know electric vehicles aren't without an environmental cost — but if there's anything that can be done to move the pollution away from urban environments that seems like a pretty positive thing to me. I suspect in 50 years time people are going to look back on the burning of fossil fuels with shock.
SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
> I still feel like electric is just pushing the pollution somewhere else Ah, the good old "long tailpipe" fallacy occurs again to someone. I'll link it this time: http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/the-plot-to-kill-the-green-machine-480645.html http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/the-plot-to-kill-th... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_tailpipe#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_tailpipe#Criticism https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13938279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13938279

TehCorwiz 10y ago

Where I live I have the option of 100% community solar, or 100% wind (wind via credit transfer). For me, moving to an all electric vehicle would be a pure carbon reduction.

jonknee 10y ago
And even in areas where this is not the case today, it could be in the future (coal plants are shutting down all the time). There is no chance an IC vehicle can become clean in the future.
- Noughmad 10y ago
  While I agree with the sentiment, IC vehicles have been getting cleaner for some time, and likely will continue in the future. They will never be completely clean, though.
  - jonknee 10y ago
    I meant there is no chance your existing IC vehicle will get cleaner. If you buy a EV and your local coal power plant gets replaced with a natural gas fired plant, your car suddenly got cleaner.
rhino369 10y ago
I don't think purchasing Renewable Energy Credits really means you'd see a pure carbon reduction. Some (most?) of that wind power was going to be produced anyway. Buying their credits is just a subsidy. Though economics isn't my forte.

TeMPOraL 10y ago

> I still feel like electric is just pushing the pollution somewhere else In a way it is, but that's the point. Even with fossil fuels, centralized energy production is much more efficient than every car having its own combustion engine, and then electricity is also flexible enough to enable you to switch to green/renewable sources without change for the car and its supporting infrastructure. In a way, electricity is energy abstracted away from the means of its production.

mi100hael 10y ago
That's a really good perspective that I hadn't really considered before.
oblio 10y ago
I used to think that way, too. And then I remembered that the cheapest form of power generation is using coal, which is extremely abundant. I also remembered that power plants have an expected life span of 50+ years and people are against closing down things which are have already sunk their original cost and now are cheap, effective and provide lots of jobs. It's really hard to say which is the lesser of two evils.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  Getting rid of the coal plants is mostly a separate battle, though. I admit I'm not sure how centralized coal burning compares in emission efficiency to internal combustion engines in cars.
- ska 10y ago
  And then I remembered that the cheapest form of power generation is using coal, which is extremely abundant. That's not so clear cut when you try and factor in externalized costs (which any proper analysis must)
- knz 10y ago
  > I also remembered that power plants have an expected life span of 50+ years How much of that infrastructure was built in the post WW2 period so is nearing replacement anyway?

make3 10y ago

you may want to read this : http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green in most cases, turns out electricity is generated in a way that's much more carbon efficient than using gasoline. Electricity from natural gas, for example, has a much better carbon footprint compared to oil. petroleum parity is really the worst case.

xutopia 10y ago

In Quebec we sell electricity to the US for cheap and it's dam water powering turbines that generates it all.

Noughmad 10y ago

In the US, about 2/3 of electricity produced is from fossil fuels. In the EU, this number is about about half, and in Slovenia it's lower than 25%. So with all else being equal, you reduce pollution by somewhere between one third and three quarters. With that out of the way, even just pushing the pollution and noise somewhere else is a big deal, especially in cities. It doesn't matter for global warming, but for quality of life it's much better if fuel burning is happening away from people.

deelowe 10y ago
Agreed. Also, a lot of those fossil fuels are now natural gas, which is much less polluting than gasoline. Also, centralizing power generation means it will be much easier to regulate moving forward (power companies are already heavily regulated, so they are accustom to dealing with federal and state initiatives to reduce pollution, cost, etc...)

vernie 10y ago

What's a clusterfsck

pc86 10y ago
Thank you. If you want to curse, just curse. I've seen "fuck" on HN dozens of times, and worse too. If you've got some hang up about maintaining the pseudo-professional/intellectual air of HN, just use a different word/phrase altogether.
tedunangst 10y ago
It's when you check the whole cloud filesystem all at once. Not sure how it relates to tesla. Maybe the machine learning autopilot?

aidos 10y ago

I have a diesel that's in at the mechanic at the moment because it's blowing plumes of blueish smoke every now and again. 4 different mechanics have all had different theories (ECG valve, turbo, air supply system, injectors) so as a result I've had to learn a lot about it myself because I no longer trust any of them. Currently I'm starting to think the issue is with the DPF (diesel particulate filter) system which is responsible for pulling the soot out of the exhaust. The extra soot is the result of reburning the exhaust in a 2nd combustion to try to keep the emissions down. There's then another process (DPF regeneration) that pumps extra diesel into the engine during the exhaust stroke to try to burn the carbon particles out of the DPF to keep it clean. Stopping to think about the horrors of the filthy process that goes on inside all of these vehicles is eye opening, to say the least. I know electric vehicles aren't without an environmental cost — but if there's anything that can be done to move the pollution away from urban environments that seems like a pretty positive thing to me. I suspect in 50 years time people are going to look back on the burning of fossil fuels with shock.

SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago

> I still feel like electric is just pushing the pollution somewhere else Ah, the good old "long tailpipe" fallacy occurs again to someone. I'll link it this time: http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/the-plot-to-kill-the-green-machine-480645.html http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/the-plot-to-kill-th... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_tailpipe#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_tailpipe#Criticism https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13938279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13938279