7 ms·

'outrage crowd'. Huh. right now, the big blowup is over some guy ('jontron') spouting racist BS. This is bad enough in front of an adult audience, but in fact h

by jrkatz 10y ago

'outrage crowd'. Huh. right now, the big blowup is over some guy ('jontron') spouting racist BS. This is bad enough in front of an adult audience, but in fact he is performing this for children. Shouldn't we be mad? For PewDiePie recently, the same story: He is an adult (who should know better) performing antisemitic jokes for children, who might not follow the joke were it funny. When they don't follow it, when it's not funny -- it wasn't -- it boils down to a respected figure repeating anti-semitic talking points to an adoring audience of 14 year olds. Did he mean poorly? Maybe, maybe not. If he didn't mean poorly and it was all environmental factors, "He's just trying to make a living and YouTube culture doesn't give him time to test jokes", are we supposed to apologize for him and move on? I say he took on a responsibility and failed it, so we should be angry. If he wants to perform for children he needs to respect the fact that his words have exaggerated consequences because he's dumping them into impressionable, insecure minds. Don't reduce me to some 'outrage crowd' and write me off when I'm concerned that a children's performer is feeding them rape & jew 'jokes'.

nailer 10y ago
> For PewDiePie recently, the same story: He is an adult (who should know better) performing antisemitic jokes for children, What? Pewdiepie was seeing what people would do at fiverr for five dollars. Most of the jokes were him being rejected. The joke is very clearly not at the expense of Jewish people any more than, say, Nazis doing stupid things in Indiana Jones movies is.
- jrkatz 10y ago
  If 'Death to all jews' -- let's not talk around it, that's what was written on the sign -- wasn't the crux of the joke, why didn't he go with something equally likely to be rejected by people who understand English, but less 'Death to all jews'? Frankly, I think it's because he's a moron who doesn't understand that actions and words, however digital and remote, have consequences. Now middle school kids can chortle together on the playground, "haha, 'death to all jews', that sure was funny". After all, the life or death of a Jew, that's just a punchline.
  - nailer 10y ago
    > why didn't he go with something equally likely to be rejected by people who understand English, but less 'Death to all jews'? He did. See the other people on fiverr he got to do other, stupid things. You did actually watch the video, right? > likely to be rejected by people who understand English They understand English perfectly - their email replies discussing the task were about the same level of English as spoken on HN. > Now middle school kids can chortle together on the playground, "haha, 'death to all jews', that sure was funny". If a kid thinks that they've misunderstood the joke (and I'd support rating the video something like '15+ mature' or whatever youtube's equivalent is). I don't like the video, mainly because it seems like Pewdiepie is exploiting poor people, but saying it's making antisemitic jokes is simply Vox being Vox.
    - jrkatz 10y ago
      > He did. See the other people on fiverr he got to do other, stupid things. You did actually watch the video, right? He did all those other things and he still did 'death to all jews'. I'm saying he didn't need to do that one at all. If he did other things in the video it supports my position. > If a kid thinks that they've misunderstood the joke Yes, kids are by and large stupid.
    - witty_username 10y ago
      How is Pewdiepie exploiting poor people? The poor people agreed to it and they objectively benefited.
    - watwut 10y ago
      > If a kid thinks that they've misunderstood the joke (and I'd support rating the video something like '15+ mature' or whatever youtube's equivalent is). The biggest real hit for PewDiePie was that Disney studios dropped him as affiliate. Disney does not feature '15+ mature', they children+parents friendly as a strategy.
      - nailer 10y ago
        They definitely shouldn't have him under the 'Disney' brand: his humor is for gamers not children. But Disney does Marvel Studios, Buena Vista, Star Wars and a bunch of other stuff.
Neliquat 10y ago
With all respect, it is the parents responsibility, not youtube or jontron, to make sure their little angel is not drinking in racist rants.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  That's a laudable attitude, but its feasibility is rapidly eroding in this always-connected world. Can't watch over the little angel's shoulder to see what's on their phone 24x7.
  - sqeaky 10y ago
    I think it is less about filtering what a kid sees and more about preparing children for the crazy shit the world can throw at kids without meaning too. For any adult looking at PewDiePie's shenanigans it is clear that he isn't actually supporting organized racism, or if he is he is astoundingly bad at it (perhaps as bad at being funny. But to a an unprepared kid (or dumb adult) this stuff can seem shocking and the jokes might be missed on them. PewDiePie simply didn't care some kids might see and wasn't concerned about it. Parents can prepare their kids and create open environments where the kids can ask questions. If done right the parent can create situations where they can simply explain that PewDiePie lacks good taste when the kid asks what its going on. This is a bunch of idealist rubbish, but at least a few parents have done it.
- jrkatz 10y ago
  For an extreme example, suppose stormfront camps outside your child's school passing out leaflets and having fun, racist singalongs. How can it be your responsibility when they're in an area that is effectively outside your control? Sure, once you find out about it you can pull them from school but this requires first that you find out about it, which you may not be able to do until they come home singing the 14 words to a Wagner melody. It is impossible to effectively police all the media your child might consume unless you plan to isolate them from the world at large. Hell, jontron was innocuous for a while. A parent could have reviewed his entire oeuvre up to a point, however many days of video it would have required, and decided it was alright. Until a week ago, when suddenly it was not alright! And by the time a parent is aware of it and is shielding their children from it, they have already been exposed, at least for a bit. Jontron built an audience when he was safe and failed the responsibility he adopted when he decided to influence children by exposing them to his abhorrent views, and there was very little a parent could do about it. Moreover, it's not just about _my_ kids being exposed to racist bullshit. I also want for _other_ kids to be shielded from it (this is beyond my power without going to the source of the bullshit and shutting it down directly). Otherwise, my kids may still be cursed to live in a world where they are threatened for their heritage.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
nicky0 10y ago
There is always something or someone to be outraged at, and some people get off on it. That's the meaning of "outrage crowd". Moving from one target to another getting indignant. It's self serving, making them feel righteous.
- jrkatz 10y ago
  If you're really rockin on your cynicism right now, how is that any better?
  - nicky0 10y ago
    I'm no better. I'm a terrible and flawed human, and I admit it. I don't pretend to be a concerned citizen righting wrongs and protecting children.
    - jrkatz 10y ago
      You are also very comfortable making assumptions about my motivations.
- dang 10y ago
  > people like you Please don't do this. Personal attacks aren't allowed here and aren't necessary to make your point.
  - nicky0 10y ago
    Thank you. I have edited my comment replacing "people like you" with "some people".
aori 10y ago
I've read a few of the articles but couldn't find any compelling reason to be outraged. I certainly disagree with his suggestions about the police but I'm assuming all his racist facts he quoted from some major source. It is true that assimilation is a problem and that years ago some did talk about a Reconquista. Just because some people talk or think about it doesn't mean it's a legitimate concern but it's not exactly racist to bring it up? My friend ran a Latino media company and he used to talk about it a lot. And obviously California used to be Mexico so it's a rather common idea that's easily agreed with.
- mintplant 10y ago
  Destiny: So you don't want people to immigrate and change the "white European culture". Okay, what if you had some brown people who moved here and perfectly assimilated and embraced the culture, why does it matter if they're white or brown? JonTron: It would be great if they assimilated... but then... eventually they'd enter the gene pool. -- JonTron: Wealthy blacks also commit more crime than poor whites, that's a fact. Yeah, look it up. [He provided no source for this, and I can't find anything to back it up.] -- JonTron: These are just slurs: white supremacist, racist. -- JonTron: We've gotten rid of discrimination in our Western countries. If you don't think we've gotten rid of discrimination, you're living in a fantasy land... Get outta here with that. People like me are supposed to listen to people like you chatter on about this oppression in America, it doesn't exist, dude, it doesn't exist. What do you want to do, police people's thoughts? -- He also endorsed Rep. Steve King's recent tweet that "culture and demographics are our destiny. We can't restore our civilization with somebody else's babies", writing: "Wow, how scandalous, Steve King doesn't want his country invaded by people who have contempt for his culture and people! NAZI!!!" I write this as someone who's been a fan for years and is very disappointed by this turn of events.
jimmyk 10y ago
If you believe being mad and outraged is an effective means of ensuring your own chosen words find their way into impressionable, insecure minds, then sure, you should be mad, Mr. Katz.
- jrkatz 10y ago
  This assumes the 'outrage community' is a thing that exists and is a bunch of angry people, frothing at the mouth, waiting to attack anyone who isn't toeing their line. Maybe they even have meetings. If they do I haven't been invited. That might be because they don't exist. I believe my responses have been well measured, and the idea of an 'outrage community' is something that has been propped up to point to as a defense against criticism, no matter how deserved. "People don't like that I'm racist? No, that's the outrage community" "I feel attacked on all sides. Could it be that the majority of people find my ideals abhorrent? No, that's the outrage community" In short, it's a way to pretend you are part of a silent majority, attacked by a vocal minority in the absence of actual evidence.
  - jimmyk 10y ago
    I don't think it matters whether the silent majority agrees with the vocal minority or not, as far as this discussion goes (and of course it is a vocal minority that is going after these youtubers -- the media is a small subset of the population). Whether their ideas are popular or not, they are in competition with these youtubers for influence over impressionable, insecure minds. So please spare me the "impressionable mind" stuff. If you get mad at someone else for using your tactics, you have no leg to stand on.
odessacubbage 10y ago
>If he wants to perform for children have jontron or pewdiepie ever specified that they produce children's entertainment? i keep seeing this argument brought up but i don't see how it means a hell of a lot on an open* platform with effectively no ratings guidelines. plenty of 14 year-olds used to read big brother and watch baker videos and i can guarantee you they are interfacing with far more suggestive content on a regular basis, but none of these things would be considered to cater to children even if they were the largest demographic of consumers.

by jrkatz 10y ago

nailer 10y ago

> For PewDiePie recently, the same story: He is an adult (who should know better) performing antisemitic jokes for children, What? Pewdiepie was seeing what people would do at fiverr for five dollars. Most of the jokes were him being rejected. The joke is very clearly not at the expense of Jewish people any more than, say, Nazis doing stupid things in Indiana Jones movies is.

jrkatz 10y ago
If 'Death to all jews' -- let's not talk around it, that's what was written on the sign -- wasn't the crux of the joke, why didn't he go with something equally likely to be rejected by people who understand English, but less 'Death to all jews'? Frankly, I think it's because he's a moron who doesn't understand that actions and words, however digital and remote, have consequences. Now middle school kids can chortle together on the playground, "haha, 'death to all jews', that sure was funny". After all, the life or death of a Jew, that's just a punchline.
- nailer 10y ago
  > why didn't he go with something equally likely to be rejected by people who understand English, but less 'Death to all jews'? He did. See the other people on fiverr he got to do other, stupid things. You did actually watch the video, right? > likely to be rejected by people who understand English They understand English perfectly - their email replies discussing the task were about the same level of English as spoken on HN. > Now middle school kids can chortle together on the playground, "haha, 'death to all jews', that sure was funny". If a kid thinks that they've misunderstood the joke (and I'd support rating the video something like '15+ mature' or whatever youtube's equivalent is). I don't like the video, mainly because it seems like Pewdiepie is exploiting poor people, but saying it's making antisemitic jokes is simply Vox being Vox.
  - jrkatz 10y ago
    > He did. See the other people on fiverr he got to do other, stupid things. You did actually watch the video, right? He did all those other things and he still did 'death to all jews'. I'm saying he didn't need to do that one at all. If he did other things in the video it supports my position. > If a kid thinks that they've misunderstood the joke Yes, kids are by and large stupid.
  - witty_username 10y ago
    How is Pewdiepie exploiting poor people? The poor people agreed to it and they objectively benefited.
  - watwut 10y ago
    > If a kid thinks that they've misunderstood the joke (and I'd support rating the video something like '15+ mature' or whatever youtube's equivalent is). The biggest real hit for PewDiePie was that Disney studios dropped him as affiliate. Disney does not feature '15+ mature', they children+parents friendly as a strategy.
    - nailer 10y ago
      They definitely shouldn't have him under the 'Disney' brand: his humor is for gamers not children. But Disney does Marvel Studios, Buena Vista, Star Wars and a bunch of other stuff.

Neliquat 10y ago

With all respect, it is the parents responsibility, not youtube or jontron, to make sure their little angel is not drinking in racist rants.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago
That's a laudable attitude, but its feasibility is rapidly eroding in this always-connected world. Can't watch over the little angel's shoulder to see what's on their phone 24x7.
- sqeaky 10y ago
  I think it is less about filtering what a kid sees and more about preparing children for the crazy shit the world can throw at kids without meaning too. For any adult looking at PewDiePie's shenanigans it is clear that he isn't actually supporting organized racism, or if he is he is astoundingly bad at it (perhaps as bad at being funny. But to a an unprepared kid (or dumb adult) this stuff can seem shocking and the jokes might be missed on them. PewDiePie simply didn't care some kids might see and wasn't concerned about it. Parents can prepare their kids and create open environments where the kids can ask questions. If done right the parent can create situations where they can simply explain that PewDiePie lacks good taste when the kid asks what its going on. This is a bunch of idealist rubbish, but at least a few parents have done it.
jrkatz 10y ago
For an extreme example, suppose stormfront camps outside your child's school passing out leaflets and having fun, racist singalongs. How can it be your responsibility when they're in an area that is effectively outside your control? Sure, once you find out about it you can pull them from school but this requires first that you find out about it, which you may not be able to do until they come home singing the 14 words to a Wagner melody. It is impossible to effectively police all the media your child might consume unless you plan to isolate them from the world at large. Hell, jontron was innocuous for a while. A parent could have reviewed his entire oeuvre up to a point, however many days of video it would have required, and decided it was alright. Until a week ago, when suddenly it was not alright! And by the time a parent is aware of it and is shielding their children from it, they have already been exposed, at least for a bit. Jontron built an audience when he was safe and failed the responsibility he adopted when he decided to influence children by exposing them to his abhorrent views, and there was very little a parent could do about it. Moreover, it's not just about _my_ kids being exposed to racist bullshit. I also want for _other_ kids to be shielded from it (this is beyond my power without going to the source of the bullshit and shutting it down directly). Otherwise, my kids may still be cursed to live in a world where they are threatened for their heritage.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

nicky0 10y ago

There is always something or someone to be outraged at, and some people get off on it. That's the meaning of "outrage crowd". Moving from one target to another getting indignant. It's self serving, making them feel righteous.

jrkatz 10y ago
If you're really rockin on your cynicism right now, how is that any better?
- nicky0 10y ago
  I'm no better. I'm a terrible and flawed human, and I admit it. I don't pretend to be a concerned citizen righting wrongs and protecting children.
  - jrkatz 10y ago
    You are also very comfortable making assumptions about my motivations.
dang 10y ago
> people like you Please don't do this. Personal attacks aren't allowed here and aren't necessary to make your point.
- nicky0 10y ago
  Thank you. I have edited my comment replacing "people like you" with "some people".

aori 10y ago

I've read a few of the articles but couldn't find any compelling reason to be outraged. I certainly disagree with his suggestions about the police but I'm assuming all his racist facts he quoted from some major source. It is true that assimilation is a problem and that years ago some did talk about a Reconquista. Just because some people talk or think about it doesn't mean it's a legitimate concern but it's not exactly racist to bring it up? My friend ran a Latino media company and he used to talk about it a lot. And obviously California used to be Mexico so it's a rather common idea that's easily agreed with.

mintplant 10y ago
Destiny: So you don't want people to immigrate and change the "white European culture". Okay, what if you had some brown people who moved here and perfectly assimilated and embraced the culture, why does it matter if they're white or brown? JonTron: It would be great if they assimilated... but then... eventually they'd enter the gene pool. -- JonTron: Wealthy blacks also commit more crime than poor whites, that's a fact. Yeah, look it up. [He provided no source for this, and I can't find anything to back it up.] -- JonTron: These are just slurs: white supremacist, racist. -- JonTron: We've gotten rid of discrimination in our Western countries. If you don't think we've gotten rid of discrimination, you're living in a fantasy land... Get outta here with that. People like me are supposed to listen to people like you chatter on about this oppression in America, it doesn't exist, dude, it doesn't exist. What do you want to do, police people's thoughts? -- He also endorsed Rep. Steve King's recent tweet that "culture and demographics are our destiny. We can't restore our civilization with somebody else's babies", writing: "Wow, how scandalous, Steve King doesn't want his country invaded by people who have contempt for his culture and people! NAZI!!!" I write this as someone who's been a fan for years and is very disappointed by this turn of events.

jimmyk 10y ago

If you believe being mad and outraged is an effective means of ensuring your own chosen words find their way into impressionable, insecure minds, then sure, you should be mad, Mr. Katz.

jrkatz 10y ago
This assumes the 'outrage community' is a thing that exists and is a bunch of angry people, frothing at the mouth, waiting to attack anyone who isn't toeing their line. Maybe they even have meetings. If they do I haven't been invited. That might be because they don't exist. I believe my responses have been well measured, and the idea of an 'outrage community' is something that has been propped up to point to as a defense against criticism, no matter how deserved. "People don't like that I'm racist? No, that's the outrage community" "I feel attacked on all sides. Could it be that the majority of people find my ideals abhorrent? No, that's the outrage community" In short, it's a way to pretend you are part of a silent majority, attacked by a vocal minority in the absence of actual evidence.
- jimmyk 10y ago
  I don't think it matters whether the silent majority agrees with the vocal minority or not, as far as this discussion goes (and of course it is a vocal minority that is going after these youtubers -- the media is a small subset of the population). Whether their ideas are popular or not, they are in competition with these youtubers for influence over impressionable, insecure minds. So please spare me the "impressionable mind" stuff. If you get mad at someone else for using your tactics, you have no leg to stand on.

odessacubbage 10y ago

>If he wants to perform for children have jontron or pewdiepie ever specified that they produce children's entertainment? i keep seeing this argument brought up but i don't see how it means a hell of a lot on an open* platform with effectively no ratings guidelines. plenty of 14 year-olds used to read big brother and watch baker videos and i can guarantee you they are interfacing with far more suggestive content on a regular basis, but none of these things would be considered to cater to children even if they were the largest demographic of consumers.