11 ms·

Canada seeks to end Uber's tax advantage over taxi companies

197 points by mpatobin 10y ago

legulere 10y ago
Slowly the price advantage that Uber has by using loopholes fades away.
- objclxt 10y ago
  > Slowly the price advantage that Uber has by using loopholes fades away. They don't even always have a price advantage anymore, especially if there's a surge. I needed a cab from Chicago Midway to my hotel last night, Uber's upfront price was $48 (and an eight minute wait), a regular taxi was $40 (including 15% tip) and no wait. I took the latter.
  - aianus 10y ago
    In my experience, whenever Uber is surging enough to make cabs cheaper (2.5x in my city), there are no cabs to be found. That or the cabs try to scam you by asking for extra cash off meter (happened to me on New Year's Eve).
    - sekasi 10y ago
      It's interesting that you call Uber 'surging' but cabbies doing the same 'scamming'. I understand what you're saying but they are quite comparable..
      - fernandotakai 10y ago
        because taxi drivers cannot, at least where i live, by law, change their fare. uber/lyft told me (and i agreed by using their service) they would change the fare based on demand.
        beedogs 10y ago
        So, as long as they use the proper terminology, you're fine with being scammed.
  - revmoo 10y ago
    How'd you know though? I once called a cab company asking for a price quote and they refused.
  - cozzyd 10y ago
    The Orange line is $2.25 :)
- brandon272 10y ago
  Where I live, Uber charges less than half of what cab companies charge. But there are other ancillary benefits. Uber could be at parity with the cab companies but I would still prefer it because of: 1) Their app 2) The reliability of getting car with them vs. waiting for a cab. 3) Their vehicles are much, much, much nicer than cabs in my area. 4) The purchase experience.
  - onion2k 10y ago
    Where I live, Uber charges less than half of what cab companies charge. Have you ever asked yourself how they do that? It's not like taxi drivers are fabulously wealthy.
    - et-al 10y ago
      Yeah, that's always been one of my points: existing cab fares are probably already close to the the price to sustain a business and pay a living wage. Like you said, cab drivers (and probably cab company owners) aren't exactly fatcats. Meanwhile what's Travis Kalanick's net worth? How much are they paying top engineers at Uber? Don't get me wrong, there's definitely corruption and protectionism in the existing taxi industry, but I fail to see how the low $5-7 fares are anywhere near sustainable. Is the revenue from surge pricing enough to offset the current discount?
    - brandon272 10y ago
      I don't like to assume anything about the wealth of professions when I do not know the economics of their industry. I have seen a lot of businesses over the years that I assumed were barely scraping by that were actually making a killing. Aren't cab drivers in major cities dealing with the purchase or lease of million dollar cab medallions? I believe that could factor into higher prices for consumers.
- nikanj 10y ago
  They still have the price advantage from not having the capital costs of buying a million-dollar medallion, though
- patrickaljord 10y ago
  Yeah, how dare them offer a service both riders and drivers were happy using and helped hundreds of thousands poor make more money. Wilful adults entering mutually beneficial agreements? Government can't allow that insanity. Quick! Let's regulate it to death to make sure it sucks as much as what we had before. Make sure to justify it on taxes, people will buy the narrative and blame it on the evil corporation and not on the innocent incorruptible government.
canistr 10y ago
I like using Uber. But I also don't like the idea of money flowing out of the country/province/city into Silicon Valley. I'd much rather that the money earned by Uber stays within Canada in some form such as a tax or investment by them into our region. Particularly because Uber-like apps are becoming important to public transportation infrastructure. Additionally, taxi revenue coming from tourism remains in the hands of Canadian taxi companies as opposed to Uber resulting in a net positive flow of money into the country.
- flamedoge 10y ago
  We need a Canadian Taxi hailing app. We can make it.
  - rpeden 10y ago
    Does that mean you're interested? If so, let's get some people together, organize an in-person or virtual meetup, and get the ball rolling.
    - flamedoge 10y ago
      Ok! pm me
    - OldSchoolJohnny 10y ago
      Jesus are you serious? There are probably 500 separate taxi apps already in Canada.
      - pesfandiar 10y ago
        Why not if they have promotions or otherwise cheap fares? I'd love VC-subsidized cab rides.
  - tensor 10y ago
    You mean like this? http://www.itbusiness.ca/news/canadian-alternative-to-uber-launces-with-backing-of-taxi-industry/62749 http://www.itbusiness.ca/news/canadian-alternative-to-uber-l... Sadly it doesn't address any of the problems with cabs in Toronto. 1. Cabs won't take credit cards by claiming "the machine is broken" when it's not, presumably so that they can avoid reporting tips or fees, or they might just skim your card. 2. Cabs are too expensive. 3. Cabs might not even take you if they figure the ride isn't worth it. This app doesn't allow you to pay, so doesn't help 1. It actually make 2 worse by charging you $2 just to "hail" a cab with it. I mean, seriously? And it doesn't help with 3 either.
acveilleux 10y ago
Using the small supplier exemption seems really doubtful to me. That pushes the tax collection liability on the driver (who can't collect taxes, since payment is through Uber app) and the limit for that is 30k$ so a lot of drivers should probably have charged taxes since they may have earned more. In addition, my understanding (not a tax/law person) is that the 30k$ would be for the whole fare, not the driver's cut. GST rate is 5%... But provincial sales tax could apply, at least in provinces where there is HST (Harmonized Sales Tax, administered by fed gov, divided with province.) HST varies from 13% to 15%. I wonder if we'll see provinces going after the drivers for back taxes. Revenue Quebec is notoriously aggressive in going after people for sales tax.
- vkou 10y ago
  > That pushes the tax collection liability on the driver (who can't collect taxes, since payment is through Uber app) and the limit for that is 30k$ so a lot of drivers should probably have charged taxes since they may have earned more. Sounds like Uber needs to update their app. > I wonder if we'll see provinces going after the drivers for back taxes. I'm sure Uber will do the responsible thing, stand by its drivers, and make them whole in the case that they are billed for back-taxes.
  - bitJericho 10y ago
    Hahaha good one.
- Cakez0r 10y ago
  Someone mentioned in an above comment that the uber app already supports the driver collecting GST.
vkou 10y ago
The fact that they weren't paying GST is mind-boggling. The purpose of the exemption is to let someone running a tiny hobby business sell their products without having to deal with tax headaches. The purpose of the exemption was never to let a mega-corporation take the exemption of each employee, multiply it by the number of employees, and pretend that they don't need to pay tax. What next? A grocery store taking the $30,000 exemption for each employee working for it? A law firm taking a $30,000 exemption for each legal aide working on a case?
- thrill 10y ago
  Uber drivers are not employees. They are independent contractors. Uber, as part of their service, collects money from riders, giving both the rider and the driver a comfort factor as they don't have to deal with cash. As "hobby" businesses they each individually were enjoying the exemption. Now they will not - because we can't have "hobby" businesses causing discomfort to the well connected.
  - peeters 10y ago
    If it quacks like a duck, it gets taxed like a duck. Uber has made a business out of exploiting legal loopholes. They know it, their users know it, the politicians know it. It's just been a race to close them. I have no sympathy for Uber in this. They obviously provide a valuable service to people, so I'm sure they'll survive. Now they'll just be competing on an even playing field.
    - charlesdm 10y ago
      Sure. No problem. They've used loopholes for the last 4+ years, which is fine. Given they still have a massively superior service to taxi's, now let them compete.
      - AndyNemmity 10y ago
        They used to have a massively superior service to taxis, until taxi drivers started to work for Uber. The quality has dropped dramatically.
chollida1 10y ago
Uber's response. http://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/statement-from-uber-canada-on-the-2017-federal-budget-616953004.html http://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/statement-from-uber-can... One interesting note about the press release to the Canadian newswire service, it highlights that Uber was confounded by Canadian Garret Camp. This is set to go live on July 1st so I guess you can watch the data from that point on to see if it has any effect. > The budget statement estimates the change will raise C$3 million in new revenue in the 2017 budget year, rising to C$5 million in the next few years. So this isn't really about raising money as $3 million is figuratively a rounding error.
- giarc 10y ago
  Also on the co-founding team was Oscar Salazar. A classmate of Garret at University of Calgary. https://www.crunchbase.com/person/oscar-salazar#/entity https://www.crunchbase.com/person/oscar-salazar#/entity
- CountSessine 10y ago
  it highlights that Uber was confounded by Canadian Garret Camp s/confounded/co-founded/cg Sorry for the nit-pick, but in this case the word confounded had me genuinely confused about what this special interest group, Canadian Garret Camp, is (are they angel investors? some sort of VC incubator? a front-group for taxi companies?), and why they were lobbying for removing Uber's GST exemption.
  - slavik81 10y ago
    To state that more clearly, Garret Camp is a person. He is a Canadian businessman and co-founded Uber along with Travis Kalanick.
  - bhouston 10y ago
    Previously a co-founder of Stumble Upon as well.
  - andruc 10y ago
    You could say confounded confounded you.
thrill 10y ago
<parody>The new national budget unveiled Wednesday by Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's Liberal government took aim at document processor providers such as Microsoft Word [MSFT], to force them to collect the goods and services tax (GST) on every document created using their software. Trudeau stated, "(The Royal) we are quite disappointed that many attorneys and other value-added providers within Canada are creating documents that result in multi-million (Canadian, but still...) dollar settlements without a tax being gathered on the value those documents add to the case. Why, individual attorneys can download this software right from Microsoft, create documents worth a fortune to their clients, and not pay us a (Canadian, but still...) cent for the use of that software! Each attorney and complainant ends up having to pay us directly, and that creates awareness and complaints from taxpayers - tres horrible, I say.".</parody>
- MattRix 10y ago
  Now imagine that Microsoft Word was being used to do the selling and payment processing of those documents and it starts to make more sense...
  - problems 10y ago
    Uber is essentially just a matcher and payment processor that takes a cut, they don't own vehicles or employ drivers - will they only have to pay taxes on their cut?
    - prolly_a_moron 10y ago
      >Uber is essentially just a matcher and payment processor that takes a cut, they don't own vehicles or employ drivers That's the story their PR spins. Luckily they don't make the laws. You think this idea of, "He's not my employee, he's a contractor!" as a way to avoid employer obligations is new? That's a laugh, and it's the reason these laws exist.
      - problems 10y ago
        But it's the truth - those Uber drivers don't get guaranteed work, they don't get hours, they don't get salary. Instead they find contracts via Uber and they keep their portion of the earnings. Just because Uber takes the payment makes them an employer? If Uber had the drivers take the payment and pay them out later would they not be an employer anymore? Seems like the exact definition of a contractor to me. I don't know how else you could define it really.
jmcdiesel 10y ago
All of this Uber/Lyft stuff has me wondering... Instead of making it harder to be an Uber/Lyft to match Taxis, why not make it easier to be a taxi? Driving someone around shouldn't be so complicated. Regulation, when necessary, is good... but most of what I see around taxi regulation is just money gouging on the part of the state.
- chx 10y ago
  > Driving someone around shouldn't be so complicated. Personal safety gets involved, big time, when driving someone around.
  - jmcdiesel 10y ago
    Does the safety somehow diminish when you pay for the ride? If I give you a ride to work, for free --- then give you a ride to work, but you pay me, what is the functional difference requiring more regulation on the second part? Is your safety affected any different? Aside from the basic protections built in to any business when it comes to collecting money, etc, what extra rules need to be in place. From a purely pragmatic standpoint, what is different about the experience that requires all the extra crap? For example, in many cities where they were losing the legal fight, Uber offered free rides... and were legally allowed to do so, because they weren't charging the customer. Explain to me what was different in that scenario that made it any safer for the passengers?
    - johnrob 10y ago
      Yes. In the ride business, speed = money. Bad incentive.
      - jmcdiesel 10y ago
        Ok, so what laws that are in place do anything to control the speed of the driver (Aside from laws that would apply regardless of driving for fee or not)
    - 10y ago
abandonliberty 10y ago
The real issue here should be the abuse of the small provider provision 'hobby' tax code exemption for businesses netting <$30K that provide ride sharing. Uber should fail on both of those counts, but instead the law is changing to end that exemption. This appears unfortunate to me as we could use continued innovation in the ride sharing space.
briandear 10y ago
Why not just cut GST for everybody? Instead of taxing Uber more, tax taxis less. Drivers and Uber still pay income taxes, fuel taxes, relevant tolls right? If they want to simplify taxes -- as they claim, the best way to simplify is simply to eliminate. Lower fares mean more revenue for drivers and Uber and thus more income taxes collected. Removing taxes from goods, means lower prices which means you sell more and then generate more tax revenue. Laffer Curve 101.
- prolly_a_moron 10y ago
  >If they want to simplify taxes -- as they claim, the best way to simplify is simply to eliminate. Because consumption taxes are the most efficient form of taxation. You want a private chauffeur? Pay up. >Lower fares mean more revenue for drivers and Uber Huh? Only if the driver is working a lot harder.
  - jy1 10y ago
    It's possible if there's significantly higher utilization to offset the decreased cost. Today a significant portion of the driver's time is waiting around doing nothing.
- LammyL 10y ago
  Companies that collect GST also get back from the government any GST they spend. So effectively they don't have to pay for GST/HST on fuel, maintenance, even a new car. Companies that don't collect GST/HST (people with sales under $30k, exempt service providers like doctors, etc...) cannot claim any input tax credit and have to pay it just like regular individuals.
tn13 10y ago
What I would have preferred is that Canada removing the burden off the taxi companies and let them give competition to Uber in innovation space instead of trying to bribe politicians to act as gatekeepers.
- ghostly_s 10y ago
  Would you like to point to any precedents for 'unburdened' cab markets which have resulted in better service?
  - aianus 10y ago
    Have you ever been to Bangkok? I can just pay $1, hop on the back of a moto idling outside the skytrain station, and off we go lanesplitting through traffic straight to my office 2km away. It's amazing and would be so illegal on so many levels in Canada (where I spend $1000/mo on transportation).
    - geoka9 10y ago
      Why not get a moto then which would pay for itself within a month or two?
      - aianus 10y ago
        I don't follow. It only cost $2 a day to take the moto taxi between the office and the Skytrain. What kind of moto can you buy for $60-$120? And that's not taking into consideration parking requirements and the extra time it takes to drive all the way from home instead of doing most of the distance on the Skytrain.
lux 10y ago
Isn't this the same thing as the dispute in the UK over collecting VAT taxes? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13921048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13921048
unit91 10y ago
TL;DR: The Canadian government realized it could increase taxes by appealing to moral outrage, with terms lime "tax advantage" and "loophole". End the tax advantage by lowering taxes and reducing the size of government? Out of the question.
- andruc 10y ago
  Reducing the size of the government's tax income does not reduce the size of the government.
  - unit91 10y ago
    I didn't claim it does. Reducing the size of government decreases the amount of money the government needs to operate without incurring additional debt. If the government were less expensive to run, officials wouldn't need to invent new ways of taking money from the people.
beedogs 10y ago
Anything that punishes Uber is fine by me.
pja 10y ago
Same thing is also going on in the UK: http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/03/meet-the-uk-barrister-suing-uber-to-make-sure-it-pays-vat/ http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/03/meet-the-uk-barrister-suing...
m23khan 10y ago
isn't uber still cheaper than taxi in Canada despite the application of HST now?
- Noseshine 10y ago
  Aren't Uber fares subsidized by its investors? https://news.fastcompany.com/investors-are-paying-2-billion-per-year-to-subsidize-your-uber-ride-4026256 https://news.fastcompany.com/investors-are-paying-2-billion-...

197 points by mpatobin 10y ago

legulere 10y ago

Slowly the price advantage that Uber has by using loopholes fades away.

objclxt 10y ago
> Slowly the price advantage that Uber has by using loopholes fades away. They don't even always have a price advantage anymore, especially if there's a surge. I needed a cab from Chicago Midway to my hotel last night, Uber's upfront price was $48 (and an eight minute wait), a regular taxi was $40 (including 15% tip) and no wait. I took the latter.
- aianus 10y ago
  In my experience, whenever Uber is surging enough to make cabs cheaper (2.5x in my city), there are no cabs to be found. That or the cabs try to scam you by asking for extra cash off meter (happened to me on New Year's Eve).
  - sekasi 10y ago
    It's interesting that you call Uber 'surging' but cabbies doing the same 'scamming'. I understand what you're saying but they are quite comparable..
    - fernandotakai 10y ago
      because taxi drivers cannot, at least where i live, by law, change their fare. uber/lyft told me (and i agreed by using their service) they would change the fare based on demand.
      - beedogs 10y ago
        So, as long as they use the proper terminology, you're fine with being scammed.
- revmoo 10y ago
  How'd you know though? I once called a cab company asking for a price quote and they refused.
- cozzyd 10y ago
  The Orange line is $2.25 :)
brandon272 10y ago
Where I live, Uber charges less than half of what cab companies charge. But there are other ancillary benefits. Uber could be at parity with the cab companies but I would still prefer it because of: 1) Their app 2) The reliability of getting car with them vs. waiting for a cab. 3) Their vehicles are much, much, much nicer than cabs in my area. 4) The purchase experience.
- onion2k 10y ago
  Where I live, Uber charges less than half of what cab companies charge. Have you ever asked yourself how they do that? It's not like taxi drivers are fabulously wealthy.
  - et-al 10y ago
    Yeah, that's always been one of my points: existing cab fares are probably already close to the the price to sustain a business and pay a living wage. Like you said, cab drivers (and probably cab company owners) aren't exactly fatcats. Meanwhile what's Travis Kalanick's net worth? How much are they paying top engineers at Uber? Don't get me wrong, there's definitely corruption and protectionism in the existing taxi industry, but I fail to see how the low $5-7 fares are anywhere near sustainable. Is the revenue from surge pricing enough to offset the current discount?
  - brandon272 10y ago
    I don't like to assume anything about the wealth of professions when I do not know the economics of their industry. I have seen a lot of businesses over the years that I assumed were barely scraping by that were actually making a killing. Aren't cab drivers in major cities dealing with the purchase or lease of million dollar cab medallions? I believe that could factor into higher prices for consumers.
nikanj 10y ago
They still have the price advantage from not having the capital costs of buying a million-dollar medallion, though
patrickaljord 10y ago
Yeah, how dare them offer a service both riders and drivers were happy using and helped hundreds of thousands poor make more money. Wilful adults entering mutually beneficial agreements? Government can't allow that insanity. Quick! Let's regulate it to death to make sure it sucks as much as what we had before. Make sure to justify it on taxes, people will buy the narrative and blame it on the evil corporation and not on the innocent incorruptible government.

canistr 10y ago

I like using Uber. But I also don't like the idea of money flowing out of the country/province/city into Silicon Valley. I'd much rather that the money earned by Uber stays within Canada in some form such as a tax or investment by them into our region. Particularly because Uber-like apps are becoming important to public transportation infrastructure. Additionally, taxi revenue coming from tourism remains in the hands of Canadian taxi companies as opposed to Uber resulting in a net positive flow of money into the country.

flamedoge 10y ago
We need a Canadian Taxi hailing app. We can make it.
- rpeden 10y ago
  Does that mean you're interested? If so, let's get some people together, organize an in-person or virtual meetup, and get the ball rolling.
  - flamedoge 10y ago
    Ok! pm me
  - OldSchoolJohnny 10y ago
    Jesus are you serious? There are probably 500 separate taxi apps already in Canada.
    - pesfandiar 10y ago
      Why not if they have promotions or otherwise cheap fares? I'd love VC-subsidized cab rides.
- tensor 10y ago
  You mean like this? http://www.itbusiness.ca/news/canadian-alternative-to-uber-launces-with-backing-of-taxi-industry/62749 http://www.itbusiness.ca/news/canadian-alternative-to-uber-l... Sadly it doesn't address any of the problems with cabs in Toronto. 1. Cabs won't take credit cards by claiming "the machine is broken" when it's not, presumably so that they can avoid reporting tips or fees, or they might just skim your card. 2. Cabs are too expensive. 3. Cabs might not even take you if they figure the ride isn't worth it. This app doesn't allow you to pay, so doesn't help 1. It actually make 2 worse by charging you $2 just to "hail" a cab with it. I mean, seriously? And it doesn't help with 3 either.

acveilleux 10y ago

Using the small supplier exemption seems really doubtful to me. That pushes the tax collection liability on the driver (who can't collect taxes, since payment is through Uber app) and the limit for that is 30k$ so a lot of drivers should probably have charged taxes since they may have earned more. In addition, my understanding (not a tax/law person) is that the 30k$ would be for the whole fare, not the driver's cut. GST rate is 5%... But provincial sales tax could apply, at least in provinces where there is HST (Harmonized Sales Tax, administered by fed gov, divided with province.) HST varies from 13% to 15%. I wonder if we'll see provinces going after the drivers for back taxes. Revenue Quebec is notoriously aggressive in going after people for sales tax.

vkou 10y ago
> That pushes the tax collection liability on the driver (who can't collect taxes, since payment is through Uber app) and the limit for that is 30k$ so a lot of drivers should probably have charged taxes since they may have earned more. Sounds like Uber needs to update their app. > I wonder if we'll see provinces going after the drivers for back taxes. I'm sure Uber will do the responsible thing, stand by its drivers, and make them whole in the case that they are billed for back-taxes.
- bitJericho 10y ago
  Hahaha good one.
Cakez0r 10y ago
Someone mentioned in an above comment that the uber app already supports the driver collecting GST.

vkou 10y ago

The fact that they weren't paying GST is mind-boggling. The purpose of the exemption is to let someone running a tiny hobby business sell their products without having to deal with tax headaches. The purpose of the exemption was never to let a mega-corporation take the exemption of each employee, multiply it by the number of employees, and pretend that they don't need to pay tax. What next? A grocery store taking the $30,000 exemption for each employee working for it? A law firm taking a $30,000 exemption for each legal aide working on a case?

thrill 10y ago
Uber drivers are not employees. They are independent contractors. Uber, as part of their service, collects money from riders, giving both the rider and the driver a comfort factor as they don't have to deal with cash. As "hobby" businesses they each individually were enjoying the exemption. Now they will not - because we can't have "hobby" businesses causing discomfort to the well connected.
- peeters 10y ago
  If it quacks like a duck, it gets taxed like a duck. Uber has made a business out of exploiting legal loopholes. They know it, their users know it, the politicians know it. It's just been a race to close them. I have no sympathy for Uber in this. They obviously provide a valuable service to people, so I'm sure they'll survive. Now they'll just be competing on an even playing field.
  - charlesdm 10y ago
    Sure. No problem. They've used loopholes for the last 4+ years, which is fine. Given they still have a massively superior service to taxi's, now let them compete.
    - AndyNemmity 10y ago
      They used to have a massively superior service to taxis, until taxi drivers started to work for Uber. The quality has dropped dramatically.

chollida1 10y ago

Uber's response. http://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/statement-from-uber-canada-on-the-2017-federal-budget-616953004.html http://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/statement-from-uber-can... One interesting note about the press release to the Canadian newswire service, it highlights that Uber was confounded by Canadian Garret Camp. This is set to go live on July 1st so I guess you can watch the data from that point on to see if it has any effect. > The budget statement estimates the change will raise C$3 million in new revenue in the 2017 budget year, rising to C$5 million in the next few years. So this isn't really about raising money as $3 million is figuratively a rounding error.

giarc 10y ago
Also on the co-founding team was Oscar Salazar. A classmate of Garret at University of Calgary. https://www.crunchbase.com/person/oscar-salazar#/entity https://www.crunchbase.com/person/oscar-salazar#/entity
CountSessine 10y ago
it highlights that Uber was confounded by Canadian Garret Camp s/confounded/co-founded/cg Sorry for the nit-pick, but in this case the word confounded had me genuinely confused about what this special interest group, Canadian Garret Camp, is (are they angel investors? some sort of VC incubator? a front-group for taxi companies?), and why they were lobbying for removing Uber's GST exemption.
- slavik81 10y ago
  To state that more clearly, Garret Camp is a person. He is a Canadian businessman and co-founded Uber along with Travis Kalanick.
- bhouston 10y ago
  Previously a co-founder of Stumble Upon as well.
- andruc 10y ago
  You could say confounded confounded you.

thrill 10y ago

<parody>The new national budget unveiled Wednesday by Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's Liberal government took aim at document processor providers such as Microsoft Word [MSFT], to force them to collect the goods and services tax (GST) on every document created using their software. Trudeau stated, "(The Royal) we are quite disappointed that many attorneys and other value-added providers within Canada are creating documents that result in multi-million (Canadian, but still...) dollar settlements without a tax being gathered on the value those documents add to the case. Why, individual attorneys can download this software right from Microsoft, create documents worth a fortune to their clients, and not pay us a (Canadian, but still...) cent for the use of that software! Each attorney and complainant ends up having to pay us directly, and that creates awareness and complaints from taxpayers - tres horrible, I say.".</parody>

MattRix 10y ago
Now imagine that Microsoft Word was being used to do the selling and payment processing of those documents and it starts to make more sense...
- problems 10y ago
  Uber is essentially just a matcher and payment processor that takes a cut, they don't own vehicles or employ drivers - will they only have to pay taxes on their cut?
  - prolly_a_moron 10y ago
    >Uber is essentially just a matcher and payment processor that takes a cut, they don't own vehicles or employ drivers That's the story their PR spins. Luckily they don't make the laws. You think this idea of, "He's not my employee, he's a contractor!" as a way to avoid employer obligations is new? That's a laugh, and it's the reason these laws exist.
    - problems 10y ago
      But it's the truth - those Uber drivers don't get guaranteed work, they don't get hours, they don't get salary. Instead they find contracts via Uber and they keep their portion of the earnings. Just because Uber takes the payment makes them an employer? If Uber had the drivers take the payment and pay them out later would they not be an employer anymore? Seems like the exact definition of a contractor to me. I don't know how else you could define it really.

jmcdiesel 10y ago

All of this Uber/Lyft stuff has me wondering... Instead of making it harder to be an Uber/Lyft to match Taxis, why not make it easier to be a taxi? Driving someone around shouldn't be so complicated. Regulation, when necessary, is good... but most of what I see around taxi regulation is just money gouging on the part of the state.

chx 10y ago
> Driving someone around shouldn't be so complicated. Personal safety gets involved, big time, when driving someone around.
- jmcdiesel 10y ago
  Does the safety somehow diminish when you pay for the ride? If I give you a ride to work, for free --- then give you a ride to work, but you pay me, what is the functional difference requiring more regulation on the second part? Is your safety affected any different? Aside from the basic protections built in to any business when it comes to collecting money, etc, what extra rules need to be in place. From a purely pragmatic standpoint, what is different about the experience that requires all the extra crap? For example, in many cities where they were losing the legal fight, Uber offered free rides... and were legally allowed to do so, because they weren't charging the customer. Explain to me what was different in that scenario that made it any safer for the passengers?
  - johnrob 10y ago
    Yes. In the ride business, speed = money. Bad incentive.
    - jmcdiesel 10y ago
      Ok, so what laws that are in place do anything to control the speed of the driver (Aside from laws that would apply regardless of driving for fee or not)
  - 10y ago

abandonliberty 10y ago

The real issue here should be the abuse of the small provider provision 'hobby' tax code exemption for businesses netting <$30K that provide ride sharing. Uber should fail on both of those counts, but instead the law is changing to end that exemption. This appears unfortunate to me as we could use continued innovation in the ride sharing space.

briandear 10y ago

Why not just cut GST for everybody? Instead of taxing Uber more, tax taxis less. Drivers and Uber still pay income taxes, fuel taxes, relevant tolls right? If they want to simplify taxes -- as they claim, the best way to simplify is simply to eliminate. Lower fares mean more revenue for drivers and Uber and thus more income taxes collected. Removing taxes from goods, means lower prices which means you sell more and then generate more tax revenue. Laffer Curve 101.

prolly_a_moron 10y ago
>If they want to simplify taxes -- as they claim, the best way to simplify is simply to eliminate. Because consumption taxes are the most efficient form of taxation. You want a private chauffeur? Pay up. >Lower fares mean more revenue for drivers and Uber Huh? Only if the driver is working a lot harder.
- jy1 10y ago
  It's possible if there's significantly higher utilization to offset the decreased cost. Today a significant portion of the driver's time is waiting around doing nothing.
LammyL 10y ago
Companies that collect GST also get back from the government any GST they spend. So effectively they don't have to pay for GST/HST on fuel, maintenance, even a new car. Companies that don't collect GST/HST (people with sales under $30k, exempt service providers like doctors, etc...) cannot claim any input tax credit and have to pay it just like regular individuals.

tn13 10y ago

What I would have preferred is that Canada removing the burden off the taxi companies and let them give competition to Uber in innovation space instead of trying to bribe politicians to act as gatekeepers.

ghostly_s 10y ago
Would you like to point to any precedents for 'unburdened' cab markets which have resulted in better service?
- aianus 10y ago
  Have you ever been to Bangkok? I can just pay $1, hop on the back of a moto idling outside the skytrain station, and off we go lanesplitting through traffic straight to my office 2km away. It's amazing and would be so illegal on so many levels in Canada (where I spend $1000/mo on transportation).
  - geoka9 10y ago
    Why not get a moto then which would pay for itself within a month or two?
    - aianus 10y ago
      I don't follow. It only cost $2 a day to take the moto taxi between the office and the Skytrain. What kind of moto can you buy for $60-$120? And that's not taking into consideration parking requirements and the extra time it takes to drive all the way from home instead of doing most of the distance on the Skytrain.

lux 10y ago

Isn't this the same thing as the dispute in the UK over collecting VAT taxes? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13921048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13921048

unit91 10y ago

TL;DR: The Canadian government realized it could increase taxes by appealing to moral outrage, with terms lime "tax advantage" and "loophole". End the tax advantage by lowering taxes and reducing the size of government? Out of the question.

andruc 10y ago
Reducing the size of the government's tax income does not reduce the size of the government.
- unit91 10y ago
  I didn't claim it does. Reducing the size of government decreases the amount of money the government needs to operate without incurring additional debt. If the government were less expensive to run, officials wouldn't need to invent new ways of taking money from the people.

beedogs 10y ago

Anything that punishes Uber is fine by me.

pja 10y ago

Same thing is also going on in the UK: http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/03/meet-the-uk-barrister-suing-uber-to-make-sure-it-pays-vat/ http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/03/meet-the-uk-barrister-suing...

m23khan 10y ago

isn't uber still cheaper than taxi in Canada despite the application of HST now?

Noseshine 10y ago
Aren't Uber fares subsidized by its investors? https://news.fastcompany.com/investors-are-paying-2-billion-per-year-to-subsidize-your-uber-ride-4026256 https://news.fastcompany.com/investors-are-paying-2-billion-...