21 ms·

Sellers printing counterfeit books and selling under Amazon's brand

590 points by dash488 10y ago

achow 10y ago
It took me a while to understand that buyers are actually getting pirated books which has Amazon branding and are poorly produced (uneven binding, poor printing, missing content.. etc.)! I was incredulous, surely this is not part of Amazon's business strategy! Then saw that maybe one of the Twitterati has guessed it right: @marziah: Wait, how? Is someone copying the book and using Amazon as the printer? And they don't screen their direct prints?
- danjoc 10y ago
  Google is doing the digital version: https://www.google.com/search?q=python+for+kids+pdf https://www.google.com/search?q=python+for+kids+pdf First result. Google docs. Free book. Edit: Not sure if modded down for pointing out Google is pirating the book in nearly the same way as Amazon (HN loves Google, it can do no wrong) or if it's because I linked to Google's pirate link (Oh no! You're bankrupting the author, dirty commenter!).
  - UnfalseDesign 10y ago
    The difference is that Google isn't pirating the book. It is being hosted on Google Docs. This is no different than if someone put the PDF on Dropbox and made it public. It isn't Google's pirate link. It is a link to a pirated file that just happens to be hosted on Google Docs. The difference here is that Amazon is actually printing the pirated book. Google is just hosting a file that happens to be made publicly viewable.
    - Gargoyle 10y ago
      I'm not sure I personally see much difference. In both cases, the hosting corporation is reproducing a pirated file. One does so physically and one does so on an electronic screen, but both processes are automated piracy.
      - DanBC 10y ago
        One does so physically, and will charge you money to have the book shipped to you, and is trying to make you think that you're getting the legit book.
      - billpollock 10y ago
        We're having a problem with GitHub forks hosting a bunch of pirated copies of our books. GitHub wants us to point to them all -- but they're forks!
    - wang_li 10y ago
      > The difference is that Google isn't pirating the book. It is being hosted on Google Docs. This is no different than if someone put the PDF on Dropbox and made it public. It isn't Google's pirate link. Google has just exploited a loophole in the law that allows them to provide all the technical expertise and infrastructure to profit from piracy, while remaining legally non-liable.
      - ori_b 10y ago
        It's a very good loophole. The alternative would be making any site hosting user content legally liable, which would kill user uploads and content.
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        It's not a "loophole", which implies an unitended gap in the law; the entire intent of the DMCA safe harbor, which was a centerpiece of a debate about the law itself, is to protect online content hosts from liability for copyright violations resulting from digital distribution of user-submitted content in cases like this, so long as they abide by a specified takedown process.
      - UnfalseDesign 10y ago
        How is Google profiting from this piracy? There are no ads on the search results page. Considering that one can purchase Python for Kids on the Google Play Store (at least in the US), Google is actually losing money by allowing this.
    - danjoc 10y ago
      >The difference is that Google isn't pirating the book. Neither is Amazon as I understand it. >It is being hosted on Google Docs. Amazon is just printing the book. >This is no different than if someone put the PDF on Dropbox and made it public. This is exactly what's happening on Amazon. Someone uploaded the pirated file, as their own. Amazon is simply printing the book, and helping you find it via a search interface. I'm still failing to see a distinction here between what Google and Amazon are doing, beyond the fact that Google's approach is digital, and therefore zero cost. Both Google and Amazon benefit from the piracy. Amazon directly through sale of product, Google directly through search ad revenue. Both Google and Amazon provide the platform for the piracy. Both Google and Amazon provide search discovery for the pirated product.
      - __jal 10y ago
        Analogies are dangerous, but perhaps one will help here. The book on Google Docs is similar to someone's cocaine falling out of their pocket and hiding in your couch cushions. You didn't know it was there, and when your partner finds it, you flush it. The book being printed by Amazon is you finding the bag of coke, cutting it and selling it, splitting the take with your friend. I'll note that "benefit from" is a construction that can do a huge amount of work. I have "benefited from" some truly horrific historic crimes, despite having nothing to do with them (or even having been born yet). I bet you have, too. Using less attenuated language that makes clear what's going on is a lot more convincing. It also tends to expose differences, like what is going on here.
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        Both absolutely would be copyright violations ("pirating the book"), but what Google is doing (until it recieves a proper takedown notice, and even after that assuming it properly complies) is within the DMCA safe harbor. Amazon's action has no comparable safe harbor, because digital hosting of user-submitted content is protected, but hardcopy printing and distribution is not.
      - bitmapbrother 10y ago
        Is Google profiting by the piracy of this book? Also, doesn't Amazon get a cut of this seller's sales? So it would seem Amazon is profiting from this piracy.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    The "digital version", provided takedown provisions are observed, is protected by the DMCA safe harbor.
- billpollock 10y ago
  These have no branding other than our front cover.
bitmapbrother 10y ago
Buying from Amazon is a lot like eBay these days. In addition to what Amazon sells you also have a bunch of stores, of questionable origin, that are selling counterfeit and intentionally misrepresented products. I'm not sure what it adds to their bottom line, but it's destroying their reputation.
blobbers 10y ago
Counterfeits in comingled inventory has become pretty common on Amazon these days. "Fulfillment by amazon" has led them to comingle inventories on common products, meaning every seller's product gets jumbled together. I've gotten counterfeit huggies diapers from amazon (invalid serial number for huggies 'points' and different build quality), Mach 3 razor blades, GE MWF Water filters, even a counterfeit baby bath. The baby bath counterfeit was obvious I got a box with only chinese characters on the box: Here is there response: " We had a recent issue with an Amazon seller selling “knock-off” Blooming Baths on our Amazon account. We have since had this seller removed entirely from Amazon, as these are counterfeit items and NOT the Blooming Bath. The product you have received is not ours, I suggest returning it and ordering again from Amazon or from www.bloomingbath.com. Just make sure the seller you buy from is “Blooming Bath” if you buy from Amazon. Very sorry for this inconvenience. " I no longer trust amazon for anything health related - it just seems too easy to get counterfeit products into their system.
- bdrool 10y ago
  I've stopped using Amazon for: - Anything eaten - Anything that consumes or stores power (too much fire risk) - Anything worn on the body (even socks) And now, based on this article, it appears I'll have to stop using them for books, as how can I be sure it's word-for-word the same? What's left?
  - blobbers 10y ago
    'fire risk': oh noes. . . I bought my searzall and fire extinguisher off amazon.
    - miles 10y ago
      https://youtube.com/watch?v=1EBfxjSFAxQ&t=0m57s https://youtube.com/watch?v=1EBfxjSFAxQ&t=0m57s
    - wnevets 10y ago
      > fire extinguisher off amazon. I literally just had mine delivered yesterday from amazon. Now I'm a little woried
awinter-py 10y ago
I'm assuming used books is a much larger category than fakes and has a larger drain on sales.
- DanBC 10y ago
  If I buy a used book I'm prepared for poor quality - folded pages, broken spine, dirty book. If I buy new and I get a poor quality book my first assumption (until I read this submission) is "this publisher pushes out poor quality books", and that influences my choice of publisher in future.
backtoyoujim 10y ago
Don't forget that you can "email Jeff" if you have a problem with Amazon. gizmodo.com/jeff-bezos-if-you-have-a-problem-with-amazon-email-me-1724561248
Sujan 10y ago
So someone bought the PDF ebook, uploaded it to Amazon to be printed on demand and to be sold there?
- justboxing 10y ago
  Yep. Looks like it. And from @danjoc's comment, the book in question "Python for Kids" has been uploaded to google drive by someone and it's out there... This was (and still is) 1 major factor holding me back from trying to publish a technical book. They are so easily pirated.
  - user5994461 10y ago
    Publish hard paper and sell to entreprise. That's where there is a money. A company will pay 49$ for a book they want. A dude won't.
    - OJFord 10y ago
      > A company will pay 49$ for a book they want. A dude won't. Perhaps you meant to say that you won't.
      - user5994461 10y ago
        I meant to say $99 ;)
  - billpollock 10y ago
    So far incidents like these are rare. We won't stop selling drm-free e-books and our sales have gone up every year for the last 20 years. This is clearly a problem that needs to be solved and with enough attention paid to it by consumers I have to believe that Amazon will begin to do something about it. At least I hope so.
- kirse 10y ago
  Having used all sorts of Amazon automation programs, that's pretty hilarious if someone actually used AZ to counterfeit their own goods. Like printing more 3D Printers with a 3D Printing service or something. It's pretty cool that we can reserve entire warehouses and have books printed at the click of a button these days.
cjhanks 10y ago
I guess Amazon's DRM system can't detect off-by-one-page?
- Roodgorf 10y ago
  I don't think this has anything to do with DRM. As Pollock mentions, they release their books DRM free.
Scaevolus 10y ago
Counterfeiting is a huge problem across Amazon. Since they started commingling inventory, it's been used by bad actors to launder counterfeit goods. It's even worse for the Fulfilled by Amazon people-- there have been DVD resellers selling >$40k/mo legitimately getting banned because pirated items are being shipped to fulfill the same listings. I've chosen to buy from smaller sites to be more assured of quality-- especially for commonly faked items like batteries and replacement parts.
- Lockyy 10y ago
  It definitely sucks, I never used to have to doubt the quality of amazon products, now I'm having to make sure I only buy amazon basics products or run reviews through some fake review spotter to try and make sure I'm not buying a lie.
- ikeboy 10y ago
  The story that usually gets thrown around is very misleading. The guy was buying back DVDs from random people online, no vetting, of course counterfeits got in. Amazon said the problematic items weren't commingled. I know plenty of 7 figure sellers who only do commingle with no issues.
HoppedUpMenace 10y ago
Its ridiculous the amount of energy and effort you have to waste in order to find a product that you don't suspect as being counterfeit on Amazon these days. The other day, I wanted a super bright flashlight that ran on AAA batteries and was of decent quality and price. I had to pour over the millions of listed flashlights, most looking physically identical, with the exception of the brand name printed on the flashlight itself. Then I read about how these flashlights are all mass produced by the same manufacturer and re-branded after distribution, so essentially 100 different flashlight brands are essentially the same flashlight (sorry, did a google search on this, don't remember exact link). Anyways, I used Fakespot on a lot of these listings and it was pretty interesting to see just how many had questionable and outright blatantly fake reviews. Found the one I wanted, almost $20 and a couple of hours later. The flashlight definitely lived up to what it promised but I can't help but wonder if it would've just been easier to do this at a brick and mortar retail spot, like Fry's Electronics.
- Scaevolus 10y ago
  It was especially hilarious during the hoverboard craze-- there were hundreds of versions of the exact same item, being sold for $200-$1500.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    Were there any hover boards that weren't private labels?
    - fapjacks 10y ago
      And now: http://www.ul.com/newsroom/featured/uls-involvement-in-hoverboard-certification/ http://www.ul.com/newsroom/featured/uls-involvement-in-hover...
- danjoc 10y ago
  All those rebrands are coming from alibaba. Just go to ali express and buy direct if you want one. The "entrepreneurs" using jungle scout are flooding amazon with rebranded alibaba stuff.
strictnein 10y ago
This sucks, doubly so because it's No Starch Press. They've got some great stuff and their books have a better feel than a lot of other tech books. Something about the cover, binding, and the paper they use feels really nice.
- billpollock 10y ago
  We put a lot of thought into the paper and cover finish on all of our titles. I like to produce books that I would buy. These cheap-looking knockoffs are painful to see.
- EliRivers 10y ago
  And the smell. I can identify my No Starch books by scent.
  - billpollock 10y ago
    I can't but only because I can't really smell much any more. Other than bourbon.
draw_down 10y ago
What is going on over there? They let people sell the crappiest stuff on their site these days. Plus at least in my experience they seem to have serious logistical issues, literally the last 3 or 4 items I've purchased on Amazon have not actually shipped to me.
- 55555 10y ago
  > They let people sell the crappiest stuff on their site these days. They literally and purposely have almost zero barrier to entry. Heck perhaps they have a negative barrier to entry as they will literally loan you money to help cover inventory costs.
ilamont 10y ago
Amazon does indeed print books through its Createspace print-on-demand division. It’s been used by hundreds of thousands of self-publishers but also indie presses seeking to sell additional copies without investing in a big offset print run. If the pirate attempted to use an existing ISBN (required to match up the listings) I am pretty sure Createspace would automatically flag it [ETA: Not so sure anymore. See http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,248831.msg3466774.html#msg3466774 http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,248831.msg3466774.htm...]. There is no Amazon or Createspace branding applied to the book; the only clue that it’s POD is a barcode on the last blank page with “Made In USA” (digital short run and offset do not have to do this). Another POD service, Ingramspark, also feeds into Amazon via third-party sellers but there will definitely be a block if an existing ISBN is used. Another possibility is the pirates are using the POD services and a different ISBN, then make the Amazon listing using the original ISBN and ship the copy themselves (that is, not using fulfillment by Amazon). They could sticker over the bogus ISBN or not; nobody except for victims bothers to check. Or, perhaps the pirates are using a cheap independent digital short run service and put whatever they want on the cover (printers don’t care) and then sell it on Amazon as the real thing.
- billpollock 10y ago
  In the case of the counterfeit copies of Linux Command Line sold through Amazon, those were printed by CreateSpace in violation of copyright. That is certain. From what we can tell that is also the case here.
  - ilamont 10y ago
    This is terrible. The infuriating thing is if Amazon actually does anything, the scammers still get off with no penalty other than having their seller and Createspace accounts suspended. If you don't mind me asking, is there a POD block printed on the bottom of the last blank page? Typically it's a barcode and something like "Printed in USA, Lexington KY" and the date. Also on the Twitter thread someone mentioned that the contents were copied from a PDF you sell on the site -- are they the same press-ready PDFs used for the book, or PDFs formatted for 8.5 x 11? I ask because we sell PDFs too for letter-sized paper, and I always assumed it would be difficult to pirate for a 6x9 how-to guide.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
rdl 10y ago
There are large classes of product I've stopped buying from Amazon due to counterfeits or bad (expired or badly stored) inventory, even first party (Amazon.com LLC) things. Batteries and flash memory are high, medications are another.
billpollock 10y ago
We won't stop selling DRM-free but this is the second time we've had a problem like this with Amazon.
6stringmerc 10y ago
As a "Content Creator" and frequent advocate for U.S. Copyright Reform, this is one of the few instances where I think the full willful infringement penalty is absolutely justified. There's only a paper thin "Well they didn't inspect every book!" defense, which immediately falls apart when Amazon is making money by way of the transactions and doing market harm to the actual Copyright holder. It's not "incidental" infringement like photocopying a chapter from a book and emailing around the office or the Amazon corporate mailing list. That's more innocent. This is some straight up commercial hustle we're talking about. I'm tired of the refrain "It's too much effort / money / investment to check X, Y, Z on our system" when that system is the only goddamn reason a company exists in the first place. Want to be a Middle Man? You get the Profits and Responsibilities of one. Caveat venditor.
- lsaferite 10y ago
  Do you also advocate that eBay should verify every item it sells is not counterfeit?
  - 6stringmerc 10y ago
    If you consider my perspective is that eBay / Amazon / et al are acting with the least amount of policing effort they can legally or financially commit, then yes, I would like to advocate that a marketplace such as eBay should attempt to verify every item it sells is not counterfeit. I'd like to avoid being unrealistic in that I don't think a marketplace can 100% verify every item and grow to scale, but I'm also extremely annoyed at the "all or nothing" kind of false dichotomy you've presented. I'm not trying to be insulting or glib with the following, but if you'd like to peruse several different threads in this discussion it appears Amazon has more than enough reasonable data to address an issue, but has heretofore turned a blind-yet-financially-beneficial-in-principle-eye to the situation. If a bunch of humans sitting around and spit balling can hammer down a half-dozen examples and concerns out of altruism then I think any attempts of offloading that 'check and balance' into the Amazon system is quite significant. If they get around to it, I'd classify their pragmatic motivation as akin to "I'm sorry your feelings were hurt" moreso than "What I did hurt you and was wrong."
akeck 10y ago
I knew the shine was off the rose when I made the hike to MicroCenter, in lieu of two-day shipping, to avoid counterfeits of an item.
Animats 10y ago
There's no way to report a counterfeit on Amazon unless you're claiming a violation of your own IP rights. I've complained about fake solid state relays. There are lots of fake "Fotek" solid state relays. UL has noticed.[1] The fakes are usually marked with much higher amp ratings than they can handle safely. Look at this "100 amp" fake "Fotek" relay on Amazon.[2] Fotek doesn't even make a 100 amp relay in that packaging. [3] 100 amps requires bigger terminals. These things tend to fail into the ON state, which is not good. Or they melt down or catch fire under full load. [1] http://www.ul.com/newsroom/publicnotices/ul-warns-of-solid-state-relay-with-counterfeit-ul-recognition-mark-release-13pn-52/ http://www.ul.com/newsroom/publicnotices/ul-warns-of-solid-s... [2] https://www.amazon.com/Commoon-FOTEK-24V-380V-SSR-100DA-Module/dp/B00PDULXT4/ https://www.amazon.com/Commoon-FOTEK-24V-380V-SSR-100DA-Modu... [3] http://www.fotek.com.tw/center1.asp?classNo=4&class2_sn=16 http://www.fotek.com.tw/center1.asp?classNo=4&class2_sn=16
- komali2 10y ago
  Yea, this annoyed me when I was buying a camera. Blatantly fake products that even had things in the description like "navigate to www (dot) spamhackwebsite (dot) com to purhcase![sp]" but I had to send a general support ticket to report.
- chx 10y ago
  Oh yeah, there's a charger which has a fake ETL Mark, Intertek put out a notice http://www.intertek.com/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=34359756154 http://www.intertek.com/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=34359... but the product is still out there.
- r00fus 10y ago
  Apple has filed suit against an Amazon supplier as well [1]. Even Apple can't police Amazon's cruft. The issue here remains, if Amazon profits from fake items, why are they not responsible for the outcomes? Do they live in some alternate reality where they don't have to play by the same rules? [1] http://www.computerworld.com/article/3133627/technology-law-regulation/apple-sues-amazon-supplier-over-fake-iphone-chargers.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/3133627/technology-law-...
benmorris 10y ago
Amazon is turning into a mine field for legitimate sellers. I have a customer I work closely with to integrate their customer products into Amazon. They have a catalog of 3,000 stock parking signs listed on Amazon. We took considerable time to buy custom SKUs and get them listed. We discovered in the last month two separate Chinese sellers utilized the Amazon buy box feature and listed on our product page for less money than our items. This is impossible to do since they don't make the same signs at the same specs and design. In fact how could they have my customer's artwork? We soon discovered these people were actually hijacking our high resolution main image and actually using that to make their own signs. Amazon is strict about watermarking so we went very conservative on the markings on the files. When they received an order they printed out the high res file of ours and stuck it to a parking blank. The reviews they were getting it was obvious they weren't selling good quality, but people were confusing them with US! Almost worse than any of it Amazon puts so much power into other sellers using the buy box feature that if you searched for my customer the Chinese sellers would often default to the preferred seller. In the end Amazon has banned the two sellers, but moving forward it is difficult to police 3,000 listings so we have not been expanding what we are doing on there.
- paulcole 10y ago
  >In the end Amazon has banned the two sellers, but moving forward it is difficult to police 3,000 listings so we have not been expanding what we are doing on there. Does the API still return offer count? If you're truly the only legit seller, set up an alert if offerCount >> 1. Even without the API this should be pretty trivial to scrape.
  - dlubarov 10y ago
    But the first sale doctrine means there can be other legit sellers. There's no way to be certain whether a third party seller is selling a counterfeit (except by buying it).
    - paulcole 10y ago
      First, my suggestion was more an attempt to simplify the "how do I keep an eye on 3,000 listings" process. Second, > first sale doctrine means there can be other legit sellers This is not necessarily true on Amazon. There are larger brands that make deals with Amazon, preventing their products from being sold as new by anyone but themselves. Other people can sell it, but it must be listed as used. An end-run around first sale, but that's the way it is.
wyc 10y ago
It seems that these large distributors that aggregate from many sellers are once again having quality issues. However, they'll still get my business because of their many conveniences. I'm just less likely to use them for critical things like medicine or heavy equipment. I just went through something similar with some kitchen equipment purchased through Soap.com. I tried to claim warranty with the manufacturer, and they earned a new customer: Hello, Thank you for your inquiry. Soap.com is not an authorized retailer of our items and we have had some problems with counterfeit <REDACTED> that are having this type of problem. That being said, we can honor the warranty and replace it with the genuine article, however in the future if you choose to purchase our items please be sure that you are purchasing from someone we have authorized to do business with. Is the address you list below your current address to receive the replacement? Regards,
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  "if you choose to purchase our items please be sure that you are purchasing from someone we have authorized to do business with" - That's funny because, how do you, Joe Consumer, know what random companies are authorized to do business with what other random companies?
  - rhizome 10y ago
    For a situation like this, I would hope (and assume, given their messaging) that they have a page on their website listing them.
- beastcoast 10y ago
  Soap.com (Quidsi) is an Amazon subsidiary.
armenarmen 10y ago
Yep. Proud owner of a counterfeit copy of 100 años de Soledad. Quality is abhorrent
nommm-nommm 10y ago
Large parts of Amazon are just an over-priced Alibaba. Flooded with counterfeits and private label junk.
danjoc 10y ago
Ohh, I get it now. HN hates Amazon. I wasn't aware of that. It's not Google defenders or Python for Kids people clicking down. It's people who have a visceral hate for Amazon. I knew HN basically hated Apple, but this is news to me. Thanks for the clarification guys :)
- jessaustin 10y ago
  HN hates Apple? Whatever drugs you're on, it might be time to cut back...
  - danjoc 10y ago
    It's subtle. It manifests like Stockholm syndrome really. "I used to love Apple, but this touchbar thing is just a gimmick!" up votes. "Apple dropped everything but USB-C ports? Dongle$ are u$!" more upvotes. "Why did Apple make the red phone with a white frame, so ugly! It should have been $other_color" more up votes. You can't say "Razer is way better than Apple" though, or they jump on the defense. They probably never used a Razer or even heard of them, but they know it can't be better than the laptop they paid $3000 to get. There's clearly an undercurrent of discontent there, but they haven't been led to greener pastures by great marketing yet.
    - ChristianBundy 10y ago
      I'm not a doctor, but if I was I'd write you a prescription to take a few deep breaths and go outside before spending any more time on your computer.
- dang 10y ago
  HN doesn't hate $what_you_like, it just feels that way when you find yourself in a defensive position for whatever reason. This sort of perception is largely in the eye of the beholder. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13926022 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13926022 and marked it off-topic.
  - 10y ago
subhobroto 10y ago
What is a counterfeit book? Who stands to lose the most from a counterfeit book? Who stands to gain the most from a counterfeit book?
- soyiuz 10y ago
  > What is a counterfeit book? a book "made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud" > Who stands to lose the most from a counterfeit book? The author and/or rights holder > Who stands to gain the most from a counterfeit book? The counterfeiter
The_ed17 10y ago
Yeah, this sort of thing has sadly been a problem for awhile on Amazon. For a similar problem WRT Wikipedia, see eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:PrimeHunter/Alphascript_Publishing_sells_free_articles_as_expensive_books https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:PrimeHunter/Alphascript_P... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Republishers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Republishers https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1183986 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1183986 It's technically legal due to Wikipedia's free license, but you're paying for something you can get for free on the internet.
glbrew 10y ago
This happened to me with the same book series, twice.
revelation 10y ago
I have no idea how Amazon keeps getting away with selling counterfeit and plain unsafe (anything cheap chinese plugged into a socket) products. No judge would accept that somehow a 3rd party is to blame when 1) I'm paying Amazon, 2) Amazon delivers the item from an Amazon warehouse and 3) Amazon takes the return and reimburses me. At no point in this transaction is a 3rd party involved. Clearly they should be liable here for the junk they sell.
- jmcgough 10y ago
  The 3rd party is whoever sells amazon the inventory, which may not even be the company that produced the product. There's a lot of opportunities for counterfeits to get introduced into the pool of real products, and there's a lot of incentive to do so, since profit margins are much higher.
- herojc 10y ago
  Well inventory Amazon retail imports can be commingled with 3rd party inventory. So just because you bought from Amazon doesn't necessarily mean that it was inbounded by Amazon. It's not an excuse for Amazon, but commingling is a double edged sword and the bad part of it is an extremely difficult problem to solve, yet the benefits are too strong for them to consider turning it off.
  - revelation 10y ago
    I understand how it works. I don't see why this would extend any legal benefits to Amazon in disclaiming responsibility for the faulty and dangerous products they sell and deliver. Commingle all you want, if you are taking the money & shipping the product, you're legally responsible in ensuring that it is up to code. Any physical retail shop would have been closed already, why is the government not doing its job?
dfc 10y ago
We recently ordered four or five Oreilly Hadoop books from amazon and the printing was horrible. The fonts look terrible and simple things like grey backgrounds are not uniform. The book is still legible but the printing gets distracting at times. I thought it was an indication that Oreilly had lowered there standards.
- justboxing 10y ago
  Do you remember who the Seller was? Did it say "Oreilly"? If yes, then this is quite disturbing. How will anyone know the legitimacy of a Seller? I think Amazon should start doing "Verified Sellers" like Twitter does with it's "Verified Accounts".
- joshvm 10y ago
  I have a copy of Programming Robots with ROS in front of me which I was on the verge of sending back to Amazon. The text printing is fuzzy and images have noticeable banding. You can't read text in the screenshots it's so bad. It's like the book was printed in draft mode. I bought it a month ago. Here's an example: https://imgur.com/X6KwHNm https://imgur.com/X6KwHNm and another: https://imgur.com/nTflKSL https://imgur.com/nTflKSL I bought it on sale, but this retails at £40. That's not acceptable. I've bought full colour textbooks with photo quality prints for the same price. I had a look at a previous purchase, Fluent Python, and it's similar but not as bad. The animal icons (e.g. the ravens with little facts next to them) are still quite poorly printed. I bought that about 6 months ago. Looking further back in time, I've got some pocket guides to Python and C. It could be a placebo - maybe the paper just feels nicer over time. The printing also looks better, but there aren't any big ink-dense graphics to give a fair comparison: https://imgur.com/koeIpLO https://imgur.com/koeIpLO The first two I bought from Amazon, the latter I bought from Blackwells, but that was years ago. The seller was just Amazon, not a 3rd party.
  - dfc 10y ago
    I uploaded examples from three of the four books: http://imgur.com/a/SKEVT http://imgur.com/a/SKEVT It is sad because this is not how my older Oreilly books are printed.
teddyh 10y ago
So, if this continues to be a problem, what’s the difference between using Amazon as a go-between and simply using a random web site you found? Wasn’t the whole point of using Amazon as intermediary to reduce the risk compared to ordering direct from an unknown web site?
soyiuz 10y ago
Let's think of a system where it does not matter who prints or otherwise distributes the content and where the author (rights holder) can collect royalties on all copies.
strathmeyer 10y ago
There are certain brands I cannot sell on Amazon because their manufactures will claim I am not a certified reseller and thus am committing copyright infringement (Amazon says nothing about needing to be a 'certified reseller') and they threaten to have my entire store shut down. It's how they keep the prices of some things artificially high. So it's funny that they can't get real counterfeit things off their website.
jmcgough 10y ago
I've stopped using amazon for products that are easy to counterfeit. Beauty products are especially bad. It's really hard to know that a shampoo is real just by looking at it, and if you can sell a bottle of colored foam for $40, counterfeiters are immediately drawn to that. I used to order an expensive conditioner (olaplex) through Amazon but got burned by this. The company that produces the shampoo started selling direct through their website (at amazon's price with free shipping) because they were losing out on sales through fake inventory that was being sold to amazon.
jojohack 10y ago
Wow, I wonder how long this has been an issue. I recall buying tech books a few years back and noticing that the book quality was pretty low. At the time, I thought it was a general manufacturing decision to save money.
- billpollock 10y ago
  Not ours I hope!
tux1968 10y ago
I've given up using Amazon, and so have all my family back east. It's just too hard to know what you're getting or if you're getting scammed. We're just one small family worth of lost customers who used to use their service a lot, but how long until they lose a significant fraction of their base?
55555 10y ago
Be very careful buying translated books on Amazon. I was sent a copy of a Mark Twain book that was translated into Thai _using Google translate_ and thus entirely unreadable. Amazon is a disaster these days. It's impossible to choose what to buy because there's four dozen identical private label products with nothing but fake reviews for every possible product niche. It's like that scene from Hurt Locker but you're in the world's biggest grocery store aisle. It's a miserable shopping experience. Edit: I did not get my money back.
throwaywgsid 10y ago
Amazon counterfeits are so common now I would say about half my orders in the last year have been fakes. If you don't care about quality just get from AliExpress or eBay, why pay brand name price for the same knockoffs? If you do care about quality buy from any online company with a physical presence. I never get counterfeits from stores with a lot of physical locations and prices are barely different.
throwaywgsid 10y ago
Amazon counterfeits are so common now I would say about half my orders in the last year have been fakes. If you don't care about quality just get from AliExpress or eBay, why pay brand name price for the same knockoffs? If you do care about quality buy from any online company with a physical presence. I never get counterfeits from stores with a lot of physical locations and prices are barely different.
rubicon33 10y ago
Can someone who understands Amazon's process, please explain how it works? From the sounds of it, it sounds like I could purchase a Macbook which clearly says "Sold by Apple" and it theoretically could be a knockoff product, sold be someone entirely NOT Apple. How is this even legal?
anotherthrow2 10y ago
It is clear that Amazon and its management knows that they have a counterfeit problem. How about we all band together and file a class action lawsuit? I am sure there are many millions of people, consumers and businesses, affected by Amazon's active negligence of policing the authenticity of items in their marketplace. I would even say there are probably tons of smoking gun emails between Bezos and staff regarding these issues. Sometimes the only way to get companies like Amazon to play fair is with the threat of a billion dollar settlement hanging over them. The free market doesn't always work.
deavmi 10y ago
Only cunts do this. Disgusting.
garganzol 10y ago
I received a paperback book sold by Amazon LLC just yesterday. I am hugely disappointed as it looks like a botched photocopy to the point where it is hard to read at all. WTF
_Codemonkeyism 10y ago
The other thing going on on Amazon is this "Send me an email to before buying" to rip you off. These are easy automatically to detect from the listing text. Amazon does nothing until you tell them.
thewhitetulip 10y ago
Few days back I got a duplicate book from Amazon, sadly, it was a gift for a friend who didn't realize that it was a duplicate book.
Chathamization 10y ago
The problem with quasi-monopolies like Amazon is that they lose any pressure to behave properly. Issues like this should encourage people to look at Amazon alternatives. I'd be happy to pay a bit more and wait a bit longer for goods if I'm able to make sure that I'm buying legitimate products and not counterfeits. Are there any promising Amazon alternatives people would recommend?
kwhitefoot 10y ago
After reading the comments here I think I won't ever buy anything from Amazon. I think I'm probably better off using Ebay. At least then I don't have the illusion that there is any kind of central control. And at least so far Ebay's system has worked well, when goods haven't arrive within the specified date it has gone like this: they email me asking me to contact the seller, seller says give me more time, I say ok, extra time runs out, ebay refunds my money, goods arrive about ten days later. Of course I've never spent more than about USD50 at a time and I'm not looking for branded goods anyway. I get the impression (confirmation bias probably) that the seller's reputation matters more on Ebay than on Amazon.
chx 10y ago
Not to mention that the sellers can be so blatantly scammers it's not even funny. http://i.imgur.com/S4nO45w.png http://i.imgur.com/S4nO45w.png

590 points by dash488 10y ago

achow 10y ago

It took me a while to understand that buyers are actually getting pirated books which has Amazon branding and are poorly produced (uneven binding, poor printing, missing content.. etc.)! I was incredulous, surely this is not part of Amazon's business strategy! Then saw that maybe one of the Twitterati has guessed it right: @marziah: Wait, how? Is someone copying the book and using Amazon as the printer? And they don't screen their direct prints?

danjoc 10y ago
Google is doing the digital version: https://www.google.com/search?q=python+for+kids+pdf https://www.google.com/search?q=python+for+kids+pdf First result. Google docs. Free book. Edit: Not sure if modded down for pointing out Google is pirating the book in nearly the same way as Amazon (HN loves Google, it can do no wrong) or if it's because I linked to Google's pirate link (Oh no! You're bankrupting the author, dirty commenter!).
- UnfalseDesign 10y ago
  The difference is that Google isn't pirating the book. It is being hosted on Google Docs. This is no different than if someone put the PDF on Dropbox and made it public. It isn't Google's pirate link. It is a link to a pirated file that just happens to be hosted on Google Docs. The difference here is that Amazon is actually printing the pirated book. Google is just hosting a file that happens to be made publicly viewable.
  - Gargoyle 10y ago
    I'm not sure I personally see much difference. In both cases, the hosting corporation is reproducing a pirated file. One does so physically and one does so on an electronic screen, but both processes are automated piracy.
    - DanBC 10y ago
      One does so physically, and will charge you money to have the book shipped to you, and is trying to make you think that you're getting the legit book.
    - billpollock 10y ago
      We're having a problem with GitHub forks hosting a bunch of pirated copies of our books. GitHub wants us to point to them all -- but they're forks!
  - wang_li 10y ago
    > The difference is that Google isn't pirating the book. It is being hosted on Google Docs. This is no different than if someone put the PDF on Dropbox and made it public. It isn't Google's pirate link. Google has just exploited a loophole in the law that allows them to provide all the technical expertise and infrastructure to profit from piracy, while remaining legally non-liable.
    - ori_b 10y ago
      It's a very good loophole. The alternative would be making any site hosting user content legally liable, which would kill user uploads and content.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      It's not a "loophole", which implies an unitended gap in the law; the entire intent of the DMCA safe harbor, which was a centerpiece of a debate about the law itself, is to protect online content hosts from liability for copyright violations resulting from digital distribution of user-submitted content in cases like this, so long as they abide by a specified takedown process.
    - UnfalseDesign 10y ago
      How is Google profiting from this piracy? There are no ads on the search results page. Considering that one can purchase Python for Kids on the Google Play Store (at least in the US), Google is actually losing money by allowing this.
  - danjoc 10y ago
    >The difference is that Google isn't pirating the book. Neither is Amazon as I understand it. >It is being hosted on Google Docs. Amazon is just printing the book. >This is no different than if someone put the PDF on Dropbox and made it public. This is exactly what's happening on Amazon. Someone uploaded the pirated file, as their own. Amazon is simply printing the book, and helping you find it via a search interface. I'm still failing to see a distinction here between what Google and Amazon are doing, beyond the fact that Google's approach is digital, and therefore zero cost. Both Google and Amazon benefit from the piracy. Amazon directly through sale of product, Google directly through search ad revenue. Both Google and Amazon provide the platform for the piracy. Both Google and Amazon provide search discovery for the pirated product.
    - __jal 10y ago
      Analogies are dangerous, but perhaps one will help here. The book on Google Docs is similar to someone's cocaine falling out of their pocket and hiding in your couch cushions. You didn't know it was there, and when your partner finds it, you flush it. The book being printed by Amazon is you finding the bag of coke, cutting it and selling it, splitting the take with your friend. I'll note that "benefit from" is a construction that can do a huge amount of work. I have "benefited from" some truly horrific historic crimes, despite having nothing to do with them (or even having been born yet). I bet you have, too. Using less attenuated language that makes clear what's going on is a lot more convincing. It also tends to expose differences, like what is going on here.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      Both absolutely would be copyright violations ("pirating the book"), but what Google is doing (until it recieves a proper takedown notice, and even after that assuming it properly complies) is within the DMCA safe harbor. Amazon's action has no comparable safe harbor, because digital hosting of user-submitted content is protected, but hardcopy printing and distribution is not.
    - bitmapbrother 10y ago
      Is Google profiting by the piracy of this book? Also, doesn't Amazon get a cut of this seller's sales? So it would seem Amazon is profiting from this piracy.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  The "digital version", provided takedown provisions are observed, is protected by the DMCA safe harbor.
billpollock 10y ago
These have no branding other than our front cover.

bitmapbrother 10y ago

Buying from Amazon is a lot like eBay these days. In addition to what Amazon sells you also have a bunch of stores, of questionable origin, that are selling counterfeit and intentionally misrepresented products. I'm not sure what it adds to their bottom line, but it's destroying their reputation.

blobbers 10y ago

Counterfeits in comingled inventory has become pretty common on Amazon these days. "Fulfillment by amazon" has led them to comingle inventories on common products, meaning every seller's product gets jumbled together. I've gotten counterfeit huggies diapers from amazon (invalid serial number for huggies 'points' and different build quality), Mach 3 razor blades, GE MWF Water filters, even a counterfeit baby bath. The baby bath counterfeit was obvious I got a box with only chinese characters on the box: Here is there response: " We had a recent issue with an Amazon seller selling “knock-off” Blooming Baths on our Amazon account. We have since had this seller removed entirely from Amazon, as these are counterfeit items and NOT the Blooming Bath. The product you have received is not ours, I suggest returning it and ordering again from Amazon or from www.bloomingbath.com. Just make sure the seller you buy from is “Blooming Bath” if you buy from Amazon. Very sorry for this inconvenience. " I no longer trust amazon for anything health related - it just seems too easy to get counterfeit products into their system.

bdrool 10y ago
I've stopped using Amazon for: - Anything eaten - Anything that consumes or stores power (too much fire risk) - Anything worn on the body (even socks) And now, based on this article, it appears I'll have to stop using them for books, as how can I be sure it's word-for-word the same? What's left?
- blobbers 10y ago
  'fire risk': oh noes. . . I bought my searzall and fire extinguisher off amazon.
  - miles 10y ago
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=1EBfxjSFAxQ&t=0m57s https://youtube.com/watch?v=1EBfxjSFAxQ&t=0m57s
  - wnevets 10y ago
    > fire extinguisher off amazon. I literally just had mine delivered yesterday from amazon. Now I'm a little woried

awinter-py 10y ago

I'm assuming used books is a much larger category than fakes and has a larger drain on sales.

DanBC 10y ago
If I buy a used book I'm prepared for poor quality - folded pages, broken spine, dirty book. If I buy new and I get a poor quality book my first assumption (until I read this submission) is "this publisher pushes out poor quality books", and that influences my choice of publisher in future.

backtoyoujim 10y ago

Don't forget that you can "email Jeff" if you have a problem with Amazon. gizmodo.com/jeff-bezos-if-you-have-a-problem-with-amazon-email-me-1724561248

Sujan 10y ago

So someone bought the PDF ebook, uploaded it to Amazon to be printed on demand and to be sold there?

justboxing 10y ago
Yep. Looks like it. And from @danjoc's comment, the book in question "Python for Kids" has been uploaded to google drive by someone and it's out there... This was (and still is) 1 major factor holding me back from trying to publish a technical book. They are so easily pirated.
- user5994461 10y ago
  Publish hard paper and sell to entreprise. That's where there is a money. A company will pay 49$ for a book they want. A dude won't.
  - OJFord 10y ago
    > A company will pay 49$ for a book they want. A dude won't. Perhaps you meant to say that you won't.
    - user5994461 10y ago
      I meant to say $99 ;)
- billpollock 10y ago
  So far incidents like these are rare. We won't stop selling drm-free e-books and our sales have gone up every year for the last 20 years. This is clearly a problem that needs to be solved and with enough attention paid to it by consumers I have to believe that Amazon will begin to do something about it. At least I hope so.
kirse 10y ago
Having used all sorts of Amazon automation programs, that's pretty hilarious if someone actually used AZ to counterfeit their own goods. Like printing more 3D Printers with a 3D Printing service or something. It's pretty cool that we can reserve entire warehouses and have books printed at the click of a button these days.

cjhanks 10y ago

I guess Amazon's DRM system can't detect off-by-one-page?

Roodgorf 10y ago
I don't think this has anything to do with DRM. As Pollock mentions, they release their books DRM free.

Scaevolus 10y ago

Counterfeiting is a huge problem across Amazon. Since they started commingling inventory, it's been used by bad actors to launder counterfeit goods. It's even worse for the Fulfilled by Amazon people-- there have been DVD resellers selling >$40k/mo legitimately getting banned because pirated items are being shipped to fulfill the same listings. I've chosen to buy from smaller sites to be more assured of quality-- especially for commonly faked items like batteries and replacement parts.

Lockyy 10y ago
It definitely sucks, I never used to have to doubt the quality of amazon products, now I'm having to make sure I only buy amazon basics products or run reviews through some fake review spotter to try and make sure I'm not buying a lie.
ikeboy 10y ago
The story that usually gets thrown around is very misleading. The guy was buying back DVDs from random people online, no vetting, of course counterfeits got in. Amazon said the problematic items weren't commingled. I know plenty of 7 figure sellers who only do commingle with no issues.

HoppedUpMenace 10y ago

Its ridiculous the amount of energy and effort you have to waste in order to find a product that you don't suspect as being counterfeit on Amazon these days. The other day, I wanted a super bright flashlight that ran on AAA batteries and was of decent quality and price. I had to pour over the millions of listed flashlights, most looking physically identical, with the exception of the brand name printed on the flashlight itself. Then I read about how these flashlights are all mass produced by the same manufacturer and re-branded after distribution, so essentially 100 different flashlight brands are essentially the same flashlight (sorry, did a google search on this, don't remember exact link). Anyways, I used Fakespot on a lot of these listings and it was pretty interesting to see just how many had questionable and outright blatantly fake reviews. Found the one I wanted, almost $20 and a couple of hours later. The flashlight definitely lived up to what it promised but I can't help but wonder if it would've just been easier to do this at a brick and mortar retail spot, like Fry's Electronics.

Scaevolus 10y ago
It was especially hilarious during the hoverboard craze-- there were hundreds of versions of the exact same item, being sold for $200-$1500.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  Were there any hover boards that weren't private labels?
  - fapjacks 10y ago
    And now: http://www.ul.com/newsroom/featured/uls-involvement-in-hoverboard-certification/ http://www.ul.com/newsroom/featured/uls-involvement-in-hover...
danjoc 10y ago
All those rebrands are coming from alibaba. Just go to ali express and buy direct if you want one. The "entrepreneurs" using jungle scout are flooding amazon with rebranded alibaba stuff.

strictnein 10y ago

This sucks, doubly so because it's No Starch Press. They've got some great stuff and their books have a better feel than a lot of other tech books. Something about the cover, binding, and the paper they use feels really nice.

billpollock 10y ago
We put a lot of thought into the paper and cover finish on all of our titles. I like to produce books that I would buy. These cheap-looking knockoffs are painful to see.
EliRivers 10y ago
And the smell. I can identify my No Starch books by scent.
- billpollock 10y ago
  I can't but only because I can't really smell much any more. Other than bourbon.

draw_down 10y ago

What is going on over there? They let people sell the crappiest stuff on their site these days. Plus at least in my experience they seem to have serious logistical issues, literally the last 3 or 4 items I've purchased on Amazon have not actually shipped to me.

55555 10y ago
> They let people sell the crappiest stuff on their site these days. They literally and purposely have almost zero barrier to entry. Heck perhaps they have a negative barrier to entry as they will literally loan you money to help cover inventory costs.

ilamont 10y ago

Amazon does indeed print books through its Createspace print-on-demand division. It’s been used by hundreds of thousands of self-publishers but also indie presses seeking to sell additional copies without investing in a big offset print run. If the pirate attempted to use an existing ISBN (required to match up the listings) I am pretty sure Createspace would automatically flag it [ETA: Not so sure anymore. See http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,248831.msg3466774.html#msg3466774 http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,248831.msg3466774.htm...]. There is no Amazon or Createspace branding applied to the book; the only clue that it’s POD is a barcode on the last blank page with “Made In USA” (digital short run and offset do not have to do this). Another POD service, Ingramspark, also feeds into Amazon via third-party sellers but there will definitely be a block if an existing ISBN is used. Another possibility is the pirates are using the POD services and a different ISBN, then make the Amazon listing using the original ISBN and ship the copy themselves (that is, not using fulfillment by Amazon). They could sticker over the bogus ISBN or not; nobody except for victims bothers to check. Or, perhaps the pirates are using a cheap independent digital short run service and put whatever they want on the cover (printers don’t care) and then sell it on Amazon as the real thing.

billpollock 10y ago
In the case of the counterfeit copies of Linux Command Line sold through Amazon, those were printed by CreateSpace in violation of copyright. That is certain. From what we can tell that is also the case here.
- ilamont 10y ago
  This is terrible. The infuriating thing is if Amazon actually does anything, the scammers still get off with no penalty other than having their seller and Createspace accounts suspended. If you don't mind me asking, is there a POD block printed on the bottom of the last blank page? Typically it's a barcode and something like "Printed in USA, Lexington KY" and the date. Also on the Twitter thread someone mentioned that the contents were copied from a PDF you sell on the site -- are they the same press-ready PDFs used for the book, or PDFs formatted for 8.5 x 11? I ask because we sell PDFs too for letter-sized paper, and I always assumed it would be difficult to pirate for a 6x9 how-to guide.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

rdl 10y ago

There are large classes of product I've stopped buying from Amazon due to counterfeits or bad (expired or badly stored) inventory, even first party (Amazon.com LLC) things. Batteries and flash memory are high, medications are another.

billpollock 10y ago

We won't stop selling DRM-free but this is the second time we've had a problem like this with Amazon.

6stringmerc 10y ago

As a "Content Creator" and frequent advocate for U.S. Copyright Reform, this is one of the few instances where I think the full willful infringement penalty is absolutely justified. There's only a paper thin "Well they didn't inspect every book!" defense, which immediately falls apart when Amazon is making money by way of the transactions and doing market harm to the actual Copyright holder. It's not "incidental" infringement like photocopying a chapter from a book and emailing around the office or the Amazon corporate mailing list. That's more innocent. This is some straight up commercial hustle we're talking about. I'm tired of the refrain "It's too much effort / money / investment to check X, Y, Z on our system" when that system is the only goddamn reason a company exists in the first place. Want to be a Middle Man? You get the Profits and Responsibilities of one. Caveat venditor.

lsaferite 10y ago
Do you also advocate that eBay should verify every item it sells is not counterfeit?
- 6stringmerc 10y ago
  If you consider my perspective is that eBay / Amazon / et al are acting with the least amount of policing effort they can legally or financially commit, then yes, I would like to advocate that a marketplace such as eBay should attempt to verify every item it sells is not counterfeit. I'd like to avoid being unrealistic in that I don't think a marketplace can 100% verify every item and grow to scale, but I'm also extremely annoyed at the "all or nothing" kind of false dichotomy you've presented. I'm not trying to be insulting or glib with the following, but if you'd like to peruse several different threads in this discussion it appears Amazon has more than enough reasonable data to address an issue, but has heretofore turned a blind-yet-financially-beneficial-in-principle-eye to the situation. If a bunch of humans sitting around and spit balling can hammer down a half-dozen examples and concerns out of altruism then I think any attempts of offloading that 'check and balance' into the Amazon system is quite significant. If they get around to it, I'd classify their pragmatic motivation as akin to "I'm sorry your feelings were hurt" moreso than "What I did hurt you and was wrong."

akeck 10y ago

I knew the shine was off the rose when I made the hike to MicroCenter, in lieu of two-day shipping, to avoid counterfeits of an item.

Animats 10y ago

There's no way to report a counterfeit on Amazon unless you're claiming a violation of your own IP rights. I've complained about fake solid state relays. There are lots of fake "Fotek" solid state relays. UL has noticed.[1] The fakes are usually marked with much higher amp ratings than they can handle safely. Look at this "100 amp" fake "Fotek" relay on Amazon.[2] Fotek doesn't even make a 100 amp relay in that packaging. [3] 100 amps requires bigger terminals. These things tend to fail into the ON state, which is not good. Or they melt down or catch fire under full load. [1] http://www.ul.com/newsroom/publicnotices/ul-warns-of-solid-state-relay-with-counterfeit-ul-recognition-mark-release-13pn-52/ http://www.ul.com/newsroom/publicnotices/ul-warns-of-solid-s... [2] https://www.amazon.com/Commoon-FOTEK-24V-380V-SSR-100DA-Module/dp/B00PDULXT4/ https://www.amazon.com/Commoon-FOTEK-24V-380V-SSR-100DA-Modu... [3] http://www.fotek.com.tw/center1.asp?classNo=4&class2_sn=16 http://www.fotek.com.tw/center1.asp?classNo=4&class2_sn=16

komali2 10y ago
Yea, this annoyed me when I was buying a camera. Blatantly fake products that even had things in the description like "navigate to www (dot) spamhackwebsite (dot) com to purhcase![sp]" but I had to send a general support ticket to report.
chx 10y ago
Oh yeah, there's a charger which has a fake ETL Mark, Intertek put out a notice http://www.intertek.com/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=34359756154 http://www.intertek.com/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=34359... but the product is still out there.
r00fus 10y ago
Apple has filed suit against an Amazon supplier as well [1]. Even Apple can't police Amazon's cruft. The issue here remains, if Amazon profits from fake items, why are they not responsible for the outcomes? Do they live in some alternate reality where they don't have to play by the same rules? [1] http://www.computerworld.com/article/3133627/technology-law-regulation/apple-sues-amazon-supplier-over-fake-iphone-chargers.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/3133627/technology-law-...

benmorris 10y ago

Amazon is turning into a mine field for legitimate sellers. I have a customer I work closely with to integrate their customer products into Amazon. They have a catalog of 3,000 stock parking signs listed on Amazon. We took considerable time to buy custom SKUs and get them listed. We discovered in the last month two separate Chinese sellers utilized the Amazon buy box feature and listed on our product page for less money than our items. This is impossible to do since they don't make the same signs at the same specs and design. In fact how could they have my customer's artwork? We soon discovered these people were actually hijacking our high resolution main image and actually using that to make their own signs. Amazon is strict about watermarking so we went very conservative on the markings on the files. When they received an order they printed out the high res file of ours and stuck it to a parking blank. The reviews they were getting it was obvious they weren't selling good quality, but people were confusing them with US! Almost worse than any of it Amazon puts so much power into other sellers using the buy box feature that if you searched for my customer the Chinese sellers would often default to the preferred seller. In the end Amazon has banned the two sellers, but moving forward it is difficult to police 3,000 listings so we have not been expanding what we are doing on there.

paulcole 10y ago
>In the end Amazon has banned the two sellers, but moving forward it is difficult to police 3,000 listings so we have not been expanding what we are doing on there. Does the API still return offer count? If you're truly the only legit seller, set up an alert if offerCount >> 1. Even without the API this should be pretty trivial to scrape.
- dlubarov 10y ago
  But the first sale doctrine means there can be other legit sellers. There's no way to be certain whether a third party seller is selling a counterfeit (except by buying it).
  - paulcole 10y ago
    First, my suggestion was more an attempt to simplify the "how do I keep an eye on 3,000 listings" process. Second, > first sale doctrine means there can be other legit sellers This is not necessarily true on Amazon. There are larger brands that make deals with Amazon, preventing their products from being sold as new by anyone but themselves. Other people can sell it, but it must be listed as used. An end-run around first sale, but that's the way it is.

wyc 10y ago

It seems that these large distributors that aggregate from many sellers are once again having quality issues. However, they'll still get my business because of their many conveniences. I'm just less likely to use them for critical things like medicine or heavy equipment. I just went through something similar with some kitchen equipment purchased through Soap.com. I tried to claim warranty with the manufacturer, and they earned a new customer: Hello, Thank you for your inquiry. Soap.com is not an authorized retailer of our items and we have had some problems with counterfeit <REDACTED> that are having this type of problem. That being said, we can honor the warranty and replace it with the genuine article, however in the future if you choose to purchase our items please be sure that you are purchasing from someone we have authorized to do business with. Is the address you list below your current address to receive the replacement? Regards,

nommm-nommm 10y ago
"if you choose to purchase our items please be sure that you are purchasing from someone we have authorized to do business with" - That's funny because, how do you, Joe Consumer, know what random companies are authorized to do business with what other random companies?
- rhizome 10y ago
  For a situation like this, I would hope (and assume, given their messaging) that they have a page on their website listing them.
beastcoast 10y ago
Soap.com (Quidsi) is an Amazon subsidiary.

armenarmen 10y ago

Yep. Proud owner of a counterfeit copy of 100 años de Soledad. Quality is abhorrent

nommm-nommm 10y ago

Large parts of Amazon are just an over-priced Alibaba. Flooded with counterfeits and private label junk.

danjoc 10y ago

Ohh, I get it now. HN hates Amazon. I wasn't aware of that. It's not Google defenders or Python for Kids people clicking down. It's people who have a visceral hate for Amazon. I knew HN basically hated Apple, but this is news to me. Thanks for the clarification guys :)

jessaustin 10y ago
HN hates Apple? Whatever drugs you're on, it might be time to cut back...
- danjoc 10y ago
  It's subtle. It manifests like Stockholm syndrome really. "I used to love Apple, but this touchbar thing is just a gimmick!" up votes. "Apple dropped everything but USB-C ports? Dongle$ are u$!" more upvotes. "Why did Apple make the red phone with a white frame, so ugly! It should have been $other_color" more up votes. You can't say "Razer is way better than Apple" though, or they jump on the defense. They probably never used a Razer or even heard of them, but they know it can't be better than the laptop they paid $3000 to get. There's clearly an undercurrent of discontent there, but they haven't been led to greener pastures by great marketing yet.
  - ChristianBundy 10y ago
    I'm not a doctor, but if I was I'd write you a prescription to take a few deep breaths and go outside before spending any more time on your computer.
dang 10y ago
HN doesn't hate $what_you_like, it just feels that way when you find yourself in a defensive position for whatever reason. This sort of perception is largely in the eye of the beholder. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13926022 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13926022 and marked it off-topic.
- 10y ago

subhobroto 10y ago

What is a counterfeit book? Who stands to lose the most from a counterfeit book? Who stands to gain the most from a counterfeit book?

soyiuz 10y ago
> What is a counterfeit book? a book "made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud" > Who stands to lose the most from a counterfeit book? The author and/or rights holder > Who stands to gain the most from a counterfeit book? The counterfeiter

The_ed17 10y ago

Yeah, this sort of thing has sadly been a problem for awhile on Amazon. For a similar problem WRT Wikipedia, see eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:PrimeHunter/Alphascript_Publishing_sells_free_articles_as_expensive_books https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:PrimeHunter/Alphascript_P... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Republishers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Republishers https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1183986 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1183986 It's technically legal due to Wikipedia's free license, but you're paying for something you can get for free on the internet.

glbrew 10y ago

This happened to me with the same book series, twice.

revelation 10y ago

I have no idea how Amazon keeps getting away with selling counterfeit and plain unsafe (anything cheap chinese plugged into a socket) products. No judge would accept that somehow a 3rd party is to blame when 1) I'm paying Amazon, 2) Amazon delivers the item from an Amazon warehouse and 3) Amazon takes the return and reimburses me. At no point in this transaction is a 3rd party involved. Clearly they should be liable here for the junk they sell.

jmcgough 10y ago
The 3rd party is whoever sells amazon the inventory, which may not even be the company that produced the product. There's a lot of opportunities for counterfeits to get introduced into the pool of real products, and there's a lot of incentive to do so, since profit margins are much higher.
herojc 10y ago
Well inventory Amazon retail imports can be commingled with 3rd party inventory. So just because you bought from Amazon doesn't necessarily mean that it was inbounded by Amazon. It's not an excuse for Amazon, but commingling is a double edged sword and the bad part of it is an extremely difficult problem to solve, yet the benefits are too strong for them to consider turning it off.
- revelation 10y ago
  I understand how it works. I don't see why this would extend any legal benefits to Amazon in disclaiming responsibility for the faulty and dangerous products they sell and deliver. Commingle all you want, if you are taking the money & shipping the product, you're legally responsible in ensuring that it is up to code. Any physical retail shop would have been closed already, why is the government not doing its job?

dfc 10y ago

We recently ordered four or five Oreilly Hadoop books from amazon and the printing was horrible. The fonts look terrible and simple things like grey backgrounds are not uniform. The book is still legible but the printing gets distracting at times. I thought it was an indication that Oreilly had lowered there standards.

justboxing 10y ago
Do you remember who the Seller was? Did it say "Oreilly"? If yes, then this is quite disturbing. How will anyone know the legitimacy of a Seller? I think Amazon should start doing "Verified Sellers" like Twitter does with it's "Verified Accounts".
joshvm 10y ago
I have a copy of Programming Robots with ROS in front of me which I was on the verge of sending back to Amazon. The text printing is fuzzy and images have noticeable banding. You can't read text in the screenshots it's so bad. It's like the book was printed in draft mode. I bought it a month ago. Here's an example: https://imgur.com/X6KwHNm https://imgur.com/X6KwHNm and another: https://imgur.com/nTflKSL https://imgur.com/nTflKSL I bought it on sale, but this retails at £40. That's not acceptable. I've bought full colour textbooks with photo quality prints for the same price. I had a look at a previous purchase, Fluent Python, and it's similar but not as bad. The animal icons (e.g. the ravens with little facts next to them) are still quite poorly printed. I bought that about 6 months ago. Looking further back in time, I've got some pocket guides to Python and C. It could be a placebo - maybe the paper just feels nicer over time. The printing also looks better, but there aren't any big ink-dense graphics to give a fair comparison: https://imgur.com/koeIpLO https://imgur.com/koeIpLO The first two I bought from Amazon, the latter I bought from Blackwells, but that was years ago. The seller was just Amazon, not a 3rd party.
- dfc 10y ago
  I uploaded examples from three of the four books: http://imgur.com/a/SKEVT http://imgur.com/a/SKEVT It is sad because this is not how my older Oreilly books are printed.

teddyh 10y ago

So, if this continues to be a problem, what’s the difference between using Amazon as a go-between and simply using a random web site you found? Wasn’t the whole point of using Amazon as intermediary to reduce the risk compared to ordering direct from an unknown web site?

soyiuz 10y ago

Let's think of a system where it does not matter who prints or otherwise distributes the content and where the author (rights holder) can collect royalties on all copies.

strathmeyer 10y ago

There are certain brands I cannot sell on Amazon because their manufactures will claim I am not a certified reseller and thus am committing copyright infringement (Amazon says nothing about needing to be a 'certified reseller') and they threaten to have my entire store shut down. It's how they keep the prices of some things artificially high. So it's funny that they can't get real counterfeit things off their website.

jmcgough 10y ago

I've stopped using amazon for products that are easy to counterfeit. Beauty products are especially bad. It's really hard to know that a shampoo is real just by looking at it, and if you can sell a bottle of colored foam for $40, counterfeiters are immediately drawn to that. I used to order an expensive conditioner (olaplex) through Amazon but got burned by this. The company that produces the shampoo started selling direct through their website (at amazon's price with free shipping) because they were losing out on sales through fake inventory that was being sold to amazon.

jojohack 10y ago

Wow, I wonder how long this has been an issue. I recall buying tech books a few years back and noticing that the book quality was pretty low. At the time, I thought it was a general manufacturing decision to save money.

billpollock 10y ago
Not ours I hope!

tux1968 10y ago

I've given up using Amazon, and so have all my family back east. It's just too hard to know what you're getting or if you're getting scammed. We're just one small family worth of lost customers who used to use their service a lot, but how long until they lose a significant fraction of their base?

55555 10y ago

Be very careful buying translated books on Amazon. I was sent a copy of a Mark Twain book that was translated into Thai _using Google translate_ and thus entirely unreadable. Amazon is a disaster these days. It's impossible to choose what to buy because there's four dozen identical private label products with nothing but fake reviews for every possible product niche. It's like that scene from Hurt Locker but you're in the world's biggest grocery store aisle. It's a miserable shopping experience. Edit: I did not get my money back.

throwaywgsid 10y ago

Amazon counterfeits are so common now I would say about half my orders in the last year have been fakes. If you don't care about quality just get from AliExpress or eBay, why pay brand name price for the same knockoffs? If you do care about quality buy from any online company with a physical presence. I never get counterfeits from stores with a lot of physical locations and prices are barely different.

throwaywgsid 10y ago

rubicon33 10y ago

Can someone who understands Amazon's process, please explain how it works? From the sounds of it, it sounds like I could purchase a Macbook which clearly says "Sold by Apple" and it theoretically could be a knockoff product, sold be someone entirely NOT Apple. How is this even legal?

anotherthrow2 10y ago

It is clear that Amazon and its management knows that they have a counterfeit problem. How about we all band together and file a class action lawsuit? I am sure there are many millions of people, consumers and businesses, affected by Amazon's active negligence of policing the authenticity of items in their marketplace. I would even say there are probably tons of smoking gun emails between Bezos and staff regarding these issues. Sometimes the only way to get companies like Amazon to play fair is with the threat of a billion dollar settlement hanging over them. The free market doesn't always work.

deavmi 10y ago

Only cunts do this. Disgusting.

garganzol 10y ago

I received a paperback book sold by Amazon LLC just yesterday. I am hugely disappointed as it looks like a botched photocopy to the point where it is hard to read at all. WTF

_Codemonkeyism 10y ago

The other thing going on on Amazon is this "Send me an email to before buying" to rip you off. These are easy automatically to detect from the listing text. Amazon does nothing until you tell them.

thewhitetulip 10y ago

Few days back I got a duplicate book from Amazon, sadly, it was a gift for a friend who didn't realize that it was a duplicate book.

Chathamization 10y ago

The problem with quasi-monopolies like Amazon is that they lose any pressure to behave properly. Issues like this should encourage people to look at Amazon alternatives. I'd be happy to pay a bit more and wait a bit longer for goods if I'm able to make sure that I'm buying legitimate products and not counterfeits. Are there any promising Amazon alternatives people would recommend?

kwhitefoot 10y ago

After reading the comments here I think I won't ever buy anything from Amazon. I think I'm probably better off using Ebay. At least then I don't have the illusion that there is any kind of central control. And at least so far Ebay's system has worked well, when goods haven't arrive within the specified date it has gone like this: they email me asking me to contact the seller, seller says give me more time, I say ok, extra time runs out, ebay refunds my money, goods arrive about ten days later. Of course I've never spent more than about USD50 at a time and I'm not looking for branded goods anyway. I get the impression (confirmation bias probably) that the seller's reputation matters more on Ebay than on Amazon.

chx 10y ago

Not to mention that the sellers can be so blatantly scammers it's not even funny. http://i.imgur.com/S4nO45w.png http://i.imgur.com/S4nO45w.png