14 ms·

"The only explanation..."? What about "never attribute to malice..." and Occam's Razor. I think a more likely explanation is that in the majority of cases when

"The only explanation..."? What about "never attribute to malice..." and Occam's Razor. I think a more likely explanation is that in the majority of cases when shopping for an appliance and your choices are a $1500 one and a $2000 one, you buy the cheaper one. This forces manufacturers to compete on price, and to cut costs wherever possible to remain profitable. Additionally, I just spent 30 seconds googling and a washer/dryer set cost $495 in 1953, which is ~$4500 in today's buying power. You can buy a cheap washer/dryer set these days for $500 on sale, which is pretty incredible. I don't know what super heavy duty high end washer/dryer you could get these days for $4500, but I bet you could find one that would last 50 years.

jedberg 10y ago
> I don't know what super heavy duty high end washer/dryer you could get these days for $4500, but I bet you could find one that would last 50 years. I'm hoping the Electrolux I spent $3000 on 5 years ago lasts another 45. That would be great. So far so good though. No rust, no leaks, and the only problem we had to call a service person for turned out to be the fault of our electrician, not the appliance.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  Some little controller will break in 3-4 years and cost $450 to repair.
markbnj 10y ago
Came here to ask how the author could write that entire piece and not compare costs.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
coldsmoke 10y ago
Not only that, but people also _want_ to buy new appliances, since they actually become better. More silent, less power drain, more features, etc. So if everyone buys new stuff every ten years or so anyway, why bother building stuff that lasts fifty since that undoubtedly is more expensive.
- intrasight 10y ago
  I'd be happy if new stuff lasted 10 years.
rosege 10y ago
If I can buy $500 ones that last 10 years I will be better off than buying 1 for $4500 that lasts 50. Although the planet wont be
- repsilat 10y ago
  And then account for interest, inflation, improved efficiency and possibly future reductions in cost -- a $500 one that lasts 10 years might be a better investment than a $4500 one that lasts 1000.
- jimmies 10y ago
  Having to worry about safety (electric shocks, leaks, fires, short circuiting) when something breaks, hauling big heavy appliances in and out of the house, selecting new ones,... those are costs you have to factor in when choosing to go with the shit that doesn't last. I'd prefer having the stuff that lasts longer for a little bit more money if I had a choice.
  - rosege 10y ago
    I would too - but 10 years would be ok
M_Grey 10y ago
Well that, and a home appliance doesn't cost 1/7th of your annual budget anymore. Some things were built to last because to justify the expense, they had to last. James May (unusually) made a very good point that the "good old days" is an illusion created by survivorship bias, nostalgia, and failure to understand economics. The survivorship bias especially should be obvious: Lots of cheap crap was made throughout the years, but it didn't survive. We only have examples of the stuff that managed to survive, or was notable in some way. The $50 Smartphone equivalent of the 50's was no more notable than today's version, and no more long-lasting.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  Occam's razor goes on a different path if you know a little bit about the guts of the product. The difference between a top 1% appliance and an average appliance is probably less than $10 of materials and $5 in labor.
  - user5994461 10y ago
    Very unlikely. Once you work in manufacturing you realize that components are actually very expensive, not a $10 joke.
    - mtdewcmu 10y ago
      I know that weight makes a big difference when shipping parts or complete machines. So the cost of shipping magnifies when you use heavier materials.
      - tonyedgecombe 10y ago
        Perhaps when we buy applicances we should just choose the heaviest one.
        Tepix 10y ago
        I remember when I disassembled a VCR I was suprised to find a lead weight in it.
coldtea 10y ago
>"The only explanation..."? What about "never attribute to malice..." and Occam's Razor. Experience tells us that the simplest explanation for manufacturer's behavior is the kind of malice called "maximizing profit, all else be damned". That's Occam's Razor in use right there -- we would need to get out of our way to invent morally good businesses, incompetent engineers who can't get things to last, and modern conveniences that have short lifespans as necessary engineering tradeoffs to explain that away.
- valuearb 10y ago
  Maximizing profits also involves making products at the price points customers want. If customers don't want to pay for 50 year appliances, why should they make one?
  - photojosh 10y ago
    I do want to pay more for a 50 year appliance. How can I tell it will last 50 years? I was going to suggest that a lengthy warranty would be a good guide, but gcb0 below says their LG came with a 10 year warranty which was worthless because it didn't cover one part.
    - IshKebab 10y ago
      Exactly. What incentive is there for manufacturers to make appliances that last 50 years when consumers won't even be able to tell? They'll just buy the cheapest one anyway.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >Maximizing profits also involves making products at the price points customers want. If customers don't want to pay for 50 year appliances, why should they make one? Are customers even offered the option? And why would "50 year appliances" have to be more expensive? The simple parts, and more basic processes used to manufacture them don't sound like costing more. And they could drop most of the electronics, IoT crap, and fancy features. If the average household could buy a fridge in 1970, why wouldn't they be able to afford one today?
gcb0 10y ago
don't look any further, I bought a 3k washer and dryer combination from LG 4 years ago. It boasted a ten year warranty! the paint, drum, motor, finish, everything looks like new. But, the controller board burned. I know my way around electronics, mind you, I can see exactly what is wrong (burned transformer), but the whole board is covered in some gelatin that makes any repair impossible. the power input board is also water proofed with the usual epoxy that you can chip away and do your repair. but the controller board gelatin thing makes it impossible! oh, and that board not only is NOT covered by the ten year warranty (only the drum and motor) but not a single place carry it. even LG cannot provide me that part for any money in the world. discontinued they say. after 4 years. if anyone want to pick it up and drive the pristine electronics with an Arduino, msg me. machine is in socal though.
- sk5t 10y ago
  Relying on an LG appliance warranty is an invitation to heartbreak...
- my_username_is_ 10y ago
  The gelatin covering the board does serve a purpose--it helps with vibration, among other things. It's called a potting compound, and you'll find it around electronic components in other high-vibration applications (automotive, power tools, etc.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potting_(electronics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potting_(electronics)
  - c3833174 10y ago
    Don't know why LG does that when Miele only has a dedicated compartment containing the bare motherboard + service manual in plastic bag
    - masklinn 10y ago
      Potting is less expensive than designing an entire suspended/isolated container.
Retric 10y ago
You are picking an unusually high end example. http://www.aei.org/publication/appliance-shopping-1959-vs-2012/ http://www.aei.org/publication/appliance-shopping-1959-vs-20... 200$ in 1959 for a washer = 1600$ today inflation adjusted. So yes I can go on Best Buy's website and pick a mid range washing machine for 1/2 the price. And yes there are plenty of cheaper examples, but the mid range cost in no way justifies 1/5 the the lifespan.
- gambiting 10y ago
  He said a washer dryer. I can buy a brand new Hotpoint washer for about $250, but you won't find a washer dryer for that price. Also, a sidenote - that Hotpoint washer comes with a free 10 year parts warranty - you have to pay for the engineer to come and install it, but Hotpoint will replace any part of the washer for free, or give you a new one if they can't fix it.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - gmac 10y ago
    If you have to pay their engineer, there's surely nothing to stop them charging an inflated price that more than covers the parts cost, no?
  - Retric 10y ago
    Washing machines cost between $250 and $2,050; dryers cost anywhere from $200 to $1,750. http://www.kitchens.com/product-guide/washers-dryers/washer-dryer-prices/washer-dryer-prices http://www.kitchens.com/product-guide/washers-dryers/washer-... And people complain the average machine does not last 10 years. So, unless you found the cheapest washing machine from 1950's it's not exactly a direct comparison.
IgorPartola 10y ago
Came here to say the same thing. I am always skeptical when people use the phrase "they don't make them like they used to" because the reason they used to make them like that is either (a) they had to hand make them and it wa super expensive, (b) they didn't have cheaper materials so they used thick and strong stuff just so it wouldn't fall apart before being delivered, (c) they didn't have the infrastructure to repair or replace parts, or (d) there were no economies of scale because everything was a one off. Take jackets. I guarantee you that a modern windbreaker is in every way better than an old school leather jacket. Lighter, cheaper, requires no maintenance, and lasts longer. But polyester is not as cool as leather and doesn't feel as sustatial so we have the sense that things used to be better. No way. It's just that synthetics like that didn't exist 100 years ago and leather was the best you could get.
- jimmies 10y ago
  >jackets I used to buy a nice looking faux-leather jacket from Zara three years ago. The faux leather layer started discoloring making it look like shit after a year and completely peeling off after a year. Worst shit ever. I learned that I have very little need for fancy clothes, and I don't care about styles. But I learned to buy leather jackets after that. A good (not nice) leather jacket is very much worth the money I paid for. Same for shoes, shoes that are built to last are very valuable to me.
  - tracker1 10y ago
    Shoes are a hard one for me... 13-6E (US) so my options are very limited, form meh, to okay.
  - IgorPartola 10y ago
    I wear leather jackets because I like them. A good leather jacket is better than a shitty faux leather jacket. But for the same price, synthetic probably wins.
  - Arizhel 10y ago
    That's what you get for buying fake leather. A polyester jacket will perform better and be lighter, and not need maintenance. It won't look like leather, though. That's why you're having problems: you're trying to get something that looks like leather, because you want that style, not because it actually performs better.
colordrops 10y ago
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" is a great way for the malicious to fool the stupid.
cwyers 10y ago
They're also so much more energy efficient now: > New fridges aren't just a little more efficient, they're incredibly more efficient. A 1986-era 18 c.f. fridge uses 1400 kWh a year, while a modern energy-efficient model uses only 350 kWh — a whopping 75% reduction. At 15¢ kWh, trading in a pre-1986 fridge for a new efficient one would save about $158 a year in electricity costs. And some older fridges are even worse than the average. One reader estimates her savings to be $238 per year for trading in her 1979 fridge for a 2004 model. There's not some great conspiracy of appliance manufacturers. All those difficult-to-repair parts have been added to make the appliances cheaper, or more energy efficient, or quieter, or speedier and more effective (compare how dishwashers and washing machines and dryers from a few decades ago work to how they do now). http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/refrigerators.html http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/refrigerators.html

jedberg 10y ago

> I don't know what super heavy duty high end washer/dryer you could get these days for $4500, but I bet you could find one that would last 50 years. I'm hoping the Electrolux I spent $3000 on 5 years ago lasts another 45. That would be great. So far so good though. No rust, no leaks, and the only problem we had to call a service person for turned out to be the fault of our electrician, not the appliance.

Spooky23 10y ago
Some little controller will break in 3-4 years and cost $450 to repair.

markbnj 10y ago

Came here to ask how the author could write that entire piece and not compare costs.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

coldsmoke 10y ago

Not only that, but people also _want_ to buy new appliances, since they actually become better. More silent, less power drain, more features, etc. So if everyone buys new stuff every ten years or so anyway, why bother building stuff that lasts fifty since that undoubtedly is more expensive.

intrasight 10y ago
I'd be happy if new stuff lasted 10 years.

rosege 10y ago

If I can buy $500 ones that last 10 years I will be better off than buying 1 for $4500 that lasts 50. Although the planet wont be

repsilat 10y ago
And then account for interest, inflation, improved efficiency and possibly future reductions in cost -- a $500 one that lasts 10 years might be a better investment than a $4500 one that lasts 1000.
jimmies 10y ago
Having to worry about safety (electric shocks, leaks, fires, short circuiting) when something breaks, hauling big heavy appliances in and out of the house, selecting new ones,... those are costs you have to factor in when choosing to go with the shit that doesn't last. I'd prefer having the stuff that lasts longer for a little bit more money if I had a choice.
- rosege 10y ago
  I would too - but 10 years would be ok

M_Grey 10y ago

Well that, and a home appliance doesn't cost 1/7th of your annual budget anymore. Some things were built to last because to justify the expense, they had to last. James May (unusually) made a very good point that the "good old days" is an illusion created by survivorship bias, nostalgia, and failure to understand economics. The survivorship bias especially should be obvious: Lots of cheap crap was made throughout the years, but it didn't survive. We only have examples of the stuff that managed to survive, or was notable in some way. The $50 Smartphone equivalent of the 50's was no more notable than today's version, and no more long-lasting.

Spooky23 10y ago
Occam's razor goes on a different path if you know a little bit about the guts of the product. The difference between a top 1% appliance and an average appliance is probably less than $10 of materials and $5 in labor.
- user5994461 10y ago
  Very unlikely. Once you work in manufacturing you realize that components are actually very expensive, not a $10 joke.
  - mtdewcmu 10y ago
    I know that weight makes a big difference when shipping parts or complete machines. So the cost of shipping magnifies when you use heavier materials.
    - tonyedgecombe 10y ago
      Perhaps when we buy applicances we should just choose the heaviest one.
      - Tepix 10y ago
        I remember when I disassembled a VCR I was suprised to find a lead weight in it.

coldtea 10y ago

>"The only explanation..."? What about "never attribute to malice..." and Occam's Razor. Experience tells us that the simplest explanation for manufacturer's behavior is the kind of malice called "maximizing profit, all else be damned". That's Occam's Razor in use right there -- we would need to get out of our way to invent morally good businesses, incompetent engineers who can't get things to last, and modern conveniences that have short lifespans as necessary engineering tradeoffs to explain that away.

valuearb 10y ago
Maximizing profits also involves making products at the price points customers want. If customers don't want to pay for 50 year appliances, why should they make one?
- photojosh 10y ago
  I do want to pay more for a 50 year appliance. How can I tell it will last 50 years? I was going to suggest that a lengthy warranty would be a good guide, but gcb0 below says their LG came with a 10 year warranty which was worthless because it didn't cover one part.
  - IshKebab 10y ago
    Exactly. What incentive is there for manufacturers to make appliances that last 50 years when consumers won't even be able to tell? They'll just buy the cheapest one anyway.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >Maximizing profits also involves making products at the price points customers want. If customers don't want to pay for 50 year appliances, why should they make one? Are customers even offered the option? And why would "50 year appliances" have to be more expensive? The simple parts, and more basic processes used to manufacture them don't sound like costing more. And they could drop most of the electronics, IoT crap, and fancy features. If the average household could buy a fridge in 1970, why wouldn't they be able to afford one today?

gcb0 10y ago

don't look any further, I bought a 3k washer and dryer combination from LG 4 years ago. It boasted a ten year warranty! the paint, drum, motor, finish, everything looks like new. But, the controller board burned. I know my way around electronics, mind you, I can see exactly what is wrong (burned transformer), but the whole board is covered in some gelatin that makes any repair impossible. the power input board is also water proofed with the usual epoxy that you can chip away and do your repair. but the controller board gelatin thing makes it impossible! oh, and that board not only is NOT covered by the ten year warranty (only the drum and motor) but not a single place carry it. even LG cannot provide me that part for any money in the world. discontinued they say. after 4 years. if anyone want to pick it up and drive the pristine electronics with an Arduino, msg me. machine is in socal though.

sk5t 10y ago
Relying on an LG appliance warranty is an invitation to heartbreak...
my_username_is_ 10y ago
The gelatin covering the board does serve a purpose--it helps with vibration, among other things. It's called a potting compound, and you'll find it around electronic components in other high-vibration applications (automotive, power tools, etc.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potting_(electronics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potting_(electronics)
- c3833174 10y ago
  Don't know why LG does that when Miele only has a dedicated compartment containing the bare motherboard + service manual in plastic bag
  - masklinn 10y ago
    Potting is less expensive than designing an entire suspended/isolated container.

Retric 10y ago

You are picking an unusually high end example. http://www.aei.org/publication/appliance-shopping-1959-vs-2012/ http://www.aei.org/publication/appliance-shopping-1959-vs-20... 200$ in 1959 for a washer = 1600$ today inflation adjusted. So yes I can go on Best Buy's website and pick a mid range washing machine for 1/2 the price. And yes there are plenty of cheaper examples, but the mid range cost in no way justifies 1/5 the the lifespan.

gambiting 10y ago
He said a washer dryer. I can buy a brand new Hotpoint washer for about $250, but you won't find a washer dryer for that price. Also, a sidenote - that Hotpoint washer comes with a free 10 year parts warranty - you have to pay for the engineer to come and install it, but Hotpoint will replace any part of the washer for free, or give you a new one if they can't fix it.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- gmac 10y ago
  If you have to pay their engineer, there's surely nothing to stop them charging an inflated price that more than covers the parts cost, no?
- Retric 10y ago
  Washing machines cost between $250 and $2,050; dryers cost anywhere from $200 to $1,750. http://www.kitchens.com/product-guide/washers-dryers/washer-dryer-prices/washer-dryer-prices http://www.kitchens.com/product-guide/washers-dryers/washer-... And people complain the average machine does not last 10 years. So, unless you found the cheapest washing machine from 1950's it's not exactly a direct comparison.

IgorPartola 10y ago

Came here to say the same thing. I am always skeptical when people use the phrase "they don't make them like they used to" because the reason they used to make them like that is either (a) they had to hand make them and it wa super expensive, (b) they didn't have cheaper materials so they used thick and strong stuff just so it wouldn't fall apart before being delivered, (c) they didn't have the infrastructure to repair or replace parts, or (d) there were no economies of scale because everything was a one off. Take jackets. I guarantee you that a modern windbreaker is in every way better than an old school leather jacket. Lighter, cheaper, requires no maintenance, and lasts longer. But polyester is not as cool as leather and doesn't feel as sustatial so we have the sense that things used to be better. No way. It's just that synthetics like that didn't exist 100 years ago and leather was the best you could get.

jimmies 10y ago
>jackets I used to buy a nice looking faux-leather jacket from Zara three years ago. The faux leather layer started discoloring making it look like shit after a year and completely peeling off after a year. Worst shit ever. I learned that I have very little need for fancy clothes, and I don't care about styles. But I learned to buy leather jackets after that. A good (not nice) leather jacket is very much worth the money I paid for. Same for shoes, shoes that are built to last are very valuable to me.
- tracker1 10y ago
  Shoes are a hard one for me... 13-6E (US) so my options are very limited, form meh, to okay.
- IgorPartola 10y ago
  I wear leather jackets because I like them. A good leather jacket is better than a shitty faux leather jacket. But for the same price, synthetic probably wins.
- Arizhel 10y ago
  That's what you get for buying fake leather. A polyester jacket will perform better and be lighter, and not need maintenance. It won't look like leather, though. That's why you're having problems: you're trying to get something that looks like leather, because you want that style, not because it actually performs better.

colordrops 10y ago

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" is a great way for the malicious to fool the stupid.

cwyers 10y ago

They're also so much more energy efficient now: > New fridges aren't just a little more efficient, they're incredibly more efficient. A 1986-era 18 c.f. fridge uses 1400 kWh a year, while a modern energy-efficient model uses only 350 kWh — a whopping 75% reduction. At 15¢ kWh, trading in a pre-1986 fridge for a new efficient one would save about $158 a year in electricity costs. And some older fridges are even worse than the average. One reader estimates her savings to be $238 per year for trading in her 1979 fridge for a 2004 model. There's not some great conspiracy of appliance manufacturers. All those difficult-to-repair parts have been added to make the appliances cheaper, or more energy efficient, or quieter, or speedier and more effective (compare how dishwashers and washing machines and dryers from a few decades ago work to how they do now). http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/refrigerators.html http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/refrigerators.html