5 ms·

'Healthiest hearts in the world' found

53 points by keithpeter 10y ago

known 10y ago
High Blood Pressure Medications http://www.everydayhealth.com/high-blood-pressure/guide/medications/ http://www.everydayhealth.com/high-blood-pressure/guide/medi...
keithpeter 10y ago
"They also live in small communities, life is very social and they maintain a positive outlook." Quote from one of the researchers.
amelius 10y ago
So what is their number one health risk? And life expectancy after reaching adulthood?
- dominotw 10y ago
  loneliness and pessimism .
  - dualogy 10y ago
    Ahh, all a matter of adaptation..
tcbawo 10y ago
It's interesting that the article points to a high carbohydrate diet as being one of the takeaways. I suspect some people will glom onto this data point (see, sugar isn't bad!) despite their largely unprocessed diet and constant physical activity into old age.
- LoSboccacc 10y ago
  And massive survivor bias
  - keithpeter 10y ago
    I thought that as well when reading the article, however, the authors of the study did claim the following... "The researchers have been studying this group for a long time so it is not simply a case of the unhealthy Tsimane dying young." The key being how long is a 'long time'? Enough for one complete generation? Some information on mortality rates would be useful as well.
    - LoSboccacc 10y ago
      https://escholarship.org/uc/item/6rf56475#page-50 https://escholarship.org/uc/item/6rf56475#page-50 20% of people dies before reaching adulthood and only 50% passes the 55 mark. on a side, it's incredible the amount of information one can dig out of internet
- mrfusion 10y ago
  What kind of carbs though? Beans actually have a lot of carbs even after subtracting fiber but I don't think anyone thinks they're unhealthy.
  - pkaye 10y ago
    It says right in the article... "Most of the rest comes from family farms growing rice, maize, manioc root (like sweet potato) and plantains (similar to banana)... It is topped up with foraged fruit and nuts."
  - tedd4u 10y ago
    Exactly, I didn't see it in the article but I think it's a good guess their carb intake has somewhere near zero processed/simple sugars and processed carbs. They are eating "whole foods." One thing I'm interested in is other than animal sources, what what fat sources do they have in their diet. Nuts is one thing that was mentioned. I wonder if they extract any oils for cooking from vegetable sources.
    - keithpeter 10y ago
      Total lack of dairy struck me as well (I'm quite capable of demolishing half a pound of a nice Cheshire cheese and I like butter on my toast)
    - undersuit 10y ago
      Do they need more fat in their diet? They aren't buying 15% fat ground beef and nicely trimmed steaks and they probably aren't discarding the skin of the fish they catch.
  - Psyonic 10y ago
    The paleo people, in fact, do think they're unhealthy: https://paleoleap.com/beans-and-legumes/ https://paleoleap.com/beans-and-legumes/ http://www.marksdailyapple.com/beans-legumes-carbs/ http://www.marksdailyapple.com/beans-legumes-carbs/
    - 10y ago
AngeloAnolin 10y ago
The article did not point out to other details of their research like: 1. Do the Tsimane people consume or have access to processed foods? 2. Vaccinations? 3. Any access to pharmaceutical products? It also mentioned on the article: "The scientists scanned 705 people's hearts in a CT scanner after teaming up with a research group scanning mummified bodies." If they performed the test on mummified bodies, how were they able to determine the amount of CAC at the age of 45 and again at the age of 75? I wonder if they also performed some tests for those people who are still alive?
- JohnJamesRambo 10y ago
  They scanned live people, they just teamed up with a group that was scanning mummies. I'm trying to deduce a physiological way a vaccine could induce coronary artery problems and I can't see any way.
- stevenwoo 10y ago
  1.) not directly but the listing of their diet implies all of the food is locally sourced/eaten with only the processing available to a low technology society and no food stuff is traded/purchased with any other humans. The difficulty of the researchers on getting there implies no easy access to processed foods unless that, too, came on a canoe to the villagers or the villagers travelled via canoe to more advanced city and traded their hunter/gatherer food for modern food. The few photos indicates only a little bit of clothing made with sewing machines and not looking very new so more evidence for little contact with current tech villagers.
brudgers 10y ago
A small sample population is likely to produce the highest rate of occurrence of a randomly distributed feature. A small sample population is also likely to produce the lowest rate of occurrence.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
TulliusCicero 10y ago
Seems like the biggest takeaway is their high levels of activity, like walking and biking. Developed countries are unlikely to get rid of 'screen time' anytime soon, but we could surely orient our cities around walking and biking more (particularly in the US).
- nojvek 10y ago
  As a developer, I sometimes ask myself how I can get more exercise. My commute is 1.5 hrs each way. So 8+3= 11 hours of sitting related to work. By the time I get home I am almost super tired and hungry to anything else. Averaging 16,000 steps is very impressive. Feels like a distant dream.
  - tomjen3 10y ago
    Honestly that is one very long commute. You really can't get anything closer, even factoring in how much it costs you to drive that much, and the value of your time?
  - mrfusion 10y ago
    Have you considered a treadmill desk? I really want to try it but they're so heavy to get moved in. I bought a motorless one but it turns out you have to concentrate on walking to make it work so it's not conducive to intellectual work. I still use it during phone calls though or when I'm stuck on a hard problem.
  - harlanlewis 10y ago
    That is a very long day of sitting. When I was younger I had a similar duration commute, with a couple transfers each way. I was fortunate that each line could carry a bike, so I skipped a bus on one end by sacrificing a few minutes to bike a few miles. I would have been in bad shape (mentally, physically, ...) without it. That said, this was one of the unhealthiest periods of my life, and it didn't really get better until I stopped commuting such a distance. The time and effort that commuting saps seems pretty deeply incompatible with an active life. Not a hugely useful observation unless you have the freedom to change it, which many developers do in some way if willing to prioritize it. I know other people who hit the gym at 6am to fit it before the trek into the office, but I've never been one of those. Making exercise a subconscious part of the routine, even if it isn't the most efficient method, has always been the most effective way to get me to actually do it.
sireat 10y ago
What is their longevity though? I could not find it anywhere in the BBC article. Healthy heart is nice and does bring quality of life, but what is their life expectancy?
- dualogy 10y ago
  Well a healthy heart is a good basis for 'longevity'. "Wild", not-primarily/fulltime-agricultural and fully nourished tribes are also throughout the ages known to have never encountered diabetes alzheimers dementia bone-issues tooth-decay gout etc. How the heck do you account for the relative/potential/likely lack of vaccines/antibiotics/ambulances however? For at least a half million years, the life-span of any human individual that survived birth and somehow avoided/survived all the sorts of infections (that we are not inherently immune to either, absent pharma) and accidents and strife inherent in their lifestyles long enough was entirely within range with what modern homo sapiens can hope for, with medicines/ambulances/care-homes etc. It's just that on the whole, many-probably-most didn't make it that far to begin with. Those who managed to, were of course treasured respected and prompted for their 'wisdom' =) A large part of "the strides medical progress has achieved" in terms of longevity is entirely about dealing with "the diseases of civilization" that we invented in the first place (out of necessity and lacking better info) with a chronic highish intake non-stone-age food-stuffs, cities, heavy industries etc.
  - dpark 10y ago
    > fully nourished tribes are also throughout the ages known to have never encountered diabetes alzheimers dementia bone-issues tooth-decay gout etc. Citation? It's pretty bold to claim that tribes essentially have/had no health issues. I assume there must be some really compelling evidence backing that up.
    - eddyl 10y ago
      In Rousseau's Discourse on the Origin and Basis of Inequality Among Men[1] (1775) he discusses the Caribs of Venezuela: "As the savage state also protects them from gout and rheumatism, and old age is, of all ills, that which human aid can least alleviate, they cease to be, without others perceiving that they are no more, and almost without perceiving it themselves. With respect to sickness, I shall not repeat the vain and false declamations which most healthy people pronounce against medicine; but I shall ask if any solid observations have been made from which it may be justly concluded that, in the countries where the art of medicine is most neglected, the mean duration of man's life is less than in those where it is most cultivated. How indeed can this be the case, if we bring on ourselves more diseases than medicine can furnish remedies? [...] When we think of the good constitution of the savages, at least of those whom we have not ruined with our spirituous liquors, and reflect that they are troubled with hardly any disorders, save wounds and old age, we are tempted to believe that, in following the history of civil society, we shall be telling also that of human sickness." [1] http://www.constitution.org/jjr/ineq_03.htm http://www.constitution.org/jjr/ineq_03.htm
0xcde4c3db 10y ago
It seems questionable to me that genes aren't even mentioned in passing when summarizing possible reasons for a specific physiological difference observed in a small, insular population. Especially considering that there are well-documented cases of both genes that accelerate atherosclerosis and specific families with extremely low rates of heart disease that don't seem to be explained by lifestyle factors. If it were all about macros and staying active, why this population and not dozens scattered throughout the world?
- ginko 10y ago
  I agree. The most interesting thing to check would be to try finding some Tsimane that left to work in the city and check their heart values.
  - 0xcde4c3db 10y ago
    That would be interesting, but part of the complexity of this is that "healthy lifestyle" may be as much about fitting together with genetic factors as approaching some universal ideal. I think it would be really interesting (albeit unrealistic) if there were a baby exchange among various populations with high longevity in general or low CVD in particular, and see if there's any significant pattern. Would people with Tsimane ancestry thrive in Okinawa? Would people with Ryukyuan ancestry get a heart attack at 40 living on Sardinia?
haffi112 10y ago
> One idea is that intestinal worms - which dampen immune reactions - could be more common and this may help protect the heart. In case you are interested in this point, then have a look at helminthic therapy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helminthic_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helminthic_therapy).
Nomentatus 10y ago
Very strange that the deleterious effects of artificial light extending the day aren't even mentioned. The evidence keeps mounting, we now know that pRGCs exist, but the old assumptions persist. One isolated tribe in New Zealand I believe it was had wonderful health - until a hydro damn was sited there, and they were given free electricity. Diet matters, but light affects appetite, so what you eat will change as your light exposure changes.

53 points by keithpeter 10y ago

known 10y ago

High Blood Pressure Medications http://www.everydayhealth.com/high-blood-pressure/guide/medications/ http://www.everydayhealth.com/high-blood-pressure/guide/medi...

keithpeter 10y ago

"They also live in small communities, life is very social and they maintain a positive outlook." Quote from one of the researchers.

amelius 10y ago

So what is their number one health risk? And life expectancy after reaching adulthood?

dominotw 10y ago
loneliness and pessimism .
- dualogy 10y ago
  Ahh, all a matter of adaptation..

tcbawo 10y ago

It's interesting that the article points to a high carbohydrate diet as being one of the takeaways. I suspect some people will glom onto this data point (see, sugar isn't bad!) despite their largely unprocessed diet and constant physical activity into old age.

LoSboccacc 10y ago
And massive survivor bias
- keithpeter 10y ago
  I thought that as well when reading the article, however, the authors of the study did claim the following... "The researchers have been studying this group for a long time so it is not simply a case of the unhealthy Tsimane dying young." The key being how long is a 'long time'? Enough for one complete generation? Some information on mortality rates would be useful as well.
  - LoSboccacc 10y ago
    https://escholarship.org/uc/item/6rf56475#page-50 https://escholarship.org/uc/item/6rf56475#page-50 20% of people dies before reaching adulthood and only 50% passes the 55 mark. on a side, it's incredible the amount of information one can dig out of internet
mrfusion 10y ago
What kind of carbs though? Beans actually have a lot of carbs even after subtracting fiber but I don't think anyone thinks they're unhealthy.
- pkaye 10y ago
  It says right in the article... "Most of the rest comes from family farms growing rice, maize, manioc root (like sweet potato) and plantains (similar to banana)... It is topped up with foraged fruit and nuts."
- tedd4u 10y ago
  Exactly, I didn't see it in the article but I think it's a good guess their carb intake has somewhere near zero processed/simple sugars and processed carbs. They are eating "whole foods." One thing I'm interested in is other than animal sources, what what fat sources do they have in their diet. Nuts is one thing that was mentioned. I wonder if they extract any oils for cooking from vegetable sources.
  - keithpeter 10y ago
    Total lack of dairy struck me as well (I'm quite capable of demolishing half a pound of a nice Cheshire cheese and I like butter on my toast)
  - undersuit 10y ago
    Do they need more fat in their diet? They aren't buying 15% fat ground beef and nicely trimmed steaks and they probably aren't discarding the skin of the fish they catch.
- Psyonic 10y ago
  The paleo people, in fact, do think they're unhealthy: https://paleoleap.com/beans-and-legumes/ https://paleoleap.com/beans-and-legumes/ http://www.marksdailyapple.com/beans-legumes-carbs/ http://www.marksdailyapple.com/beans-legumes-carbs/
  - 10y ago

AngeloAnolin 10y ago

The article did not point out to other details of their research like: 1. Do the Tsimane people consume or have access to processed foods? 2. Vaccinations? 3. Any access to pharmaceutical products? It also mentioned on the article: "The scientists scanned 705 people's hearts in a CT scanner after teaming up with a research group scanning mummified bodies." If they performed the test on mummified bodies, how were they able to determine the amount of CAC at the age of 45 and again at the age of 75? I wonder if they also performed some tests for those people who are still alive?

JohnJamesRambo 10y ago
They scanned live people, they just teamed up with a group that was scanning mummies. I'm trying to deduce a physiological way a vaccine could induce coronary artery problems and I can't see any way.
stevenwoo 10y ago
1.) not directly but the listing of their diet implies all of the food is locally sourced/eaten with only the processing available to a low technology society and no food stuff is traded/purchased with any other humans. The difficulty of the researchers on getting there implies no easy access to processed foods unless that, too, came on a canoe to the villagers or the villagers travelled via canoe to more advanced city and traded their hunter/gatherer food for modern food. The few photos indicates only a little bit of clothing made with sewing machines and not looking very new so more evidence for little contact with current tech villagers.

brudgers 10y ago

A small sample population is likely to produce the highest rate of occurrence of a randomly distributed feature. A small sample population is also likely to produce the lowest rate of occurrence.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

TulliusCicero 10y ago

Seems like the biggest takeaway is their high levels of activity, like walking and biking. Developed countries are unlikely to get rid of 'screen time' anytime soon, but we could surely orient our cities around walking and biking more (particularly in the US).

nojvek 10y ago
As a developer, I sometimes ask myself how I can get more exercise. My commute is 1.5 hrs each way. So 8+3= 11 hours of sitting related to work. By the time I get home I am almost super tired and hungry to anything else. Averaging 16,000 steps is very impressive. Feels like a distant dream.
- tomjen3 10y ago
  Honestly that is one very long commute. You really can't get anything closer, even factoring in how much it costs you to drive that much, and the value of your time?
- mrfusion 10y ago
  Have you considered a treadmill desk? I really want to try it but they're so heavy to get moved in. I bought a motorless one but it turns out you have to concentrate on walking to make it work so it's not conducive to intellectual work. I still use it during phone calls though or when I'm stuck on a hard problem.
- harlanlewis 10y ago
  That is a very long day of sitting. When I was younger I had a similar duration commute, with a couple transfers each way. I was fortunate that each line could carry a bike, so I skipped a bus on one end by sacrificing a few minutes to bike a few miles. I would have been in bad shape (mentally, physically, ...) without it. That said, this was one of the unhealthiest periods of my life, and it didn't really get better until I stopped commuting such a distance. The time and effort that commuting saps seems pretty deeply incompatible with an active life. Not a hugely useful observation unless you have the freedom to change it, which many developers do in some way if willing to prioritize it. I know other people who hit the gym at 6am to fit it before the trek into the office, but I've never been one of those. Making exercise a subconscious part of the routine, even if it isn't the most efficient method, has always been the most effective way to get me to actually do it.

sireat 10y ago

What is their longevity though? I could not find it anywhere in the BBC article. Healthy heart is nice and does bring quality of life, but what is their life expectancy?

dualogy 10y ago
Well a healthy heart is a good basis for 'longevity'. "Wild", not-primarily/fulltime-agricultural and fully nourished tribes are also throughout the ages known to have never encountered diabetes alzheimers dementia bone-issues tooth-decay gout etc. How the heck do you account for the relative/potential/likely lack of vaccines/antibiotics/ambulances however? For at least a half million years, the life-span of any human individual that survived birth and somehow avoided/survived all the sorts of infections (that we are not inherently immune to either, absent pharma) and accidents and strife inherent in their lifestyles long enough was entirely within range with what modern homo sapiens can hope for, with medicines/ambulances/care-homes etc. It's just that on the whole, many-probably-most didn't make it that far to begin with. Those who managed to, were of course treasured respected and prompted for their 'wisdom' =) A large part of "the strides medical progress has achieved" in terms of longevity is entirely about dealing with "the diseases of civilization" that we invented in the first place (out of necessity and lacking better info) with a chronic highish intake non-stone-age food-stuffs, cities, heavy industries etc.
- dpark 10y ago
  > fully nourished tribes are also throughout the ages known to have never encountered diabetes alzheimers dementia bone-issues tooth-decay gout etc. Citation? It's pretty bold to claim that tribes essentially have/had no health issues. I assume there must be some really compelling evidence backing that up.
  - eddyl 10y ago
    In Rousseau's Discourse on the Origin and Basis of Inequality Among Men[1] (1775) he discusses the Caribs of Venezuela: "As the savage state also protects them from gout and rheumatism, and old age is, of all ills, that which human aid can least alleviate, they cease to be, without others perceiving that they are no more, and almost without perceiving it themselves. With respect to sickness, I shall not repeat the vain and false declamations which most healthy people pronounce against medicine; but I shall ask if any solid observations have been made from which it may be justly concluded that, in the countries where the art of medicine is most neglected, the mean duration of man's life is less than in those where it is most cultivated. How indeed can this be the case, if we bring on ourselves more diseases than medicine can furnish remedies? [...] When we think of the good constitution of the savages, at least of those whom we have not ruined with our spirituous liquors, and reflect that they are troubled with hardly any disorders, save wounds and old age, we are tempted to believe that, in following the history of civil society, we shall be telling also that of human sickness." [1] http://www.constitution.org/jjr/ineq_03.htm http://www.constitution.org/jjr/ineq_03.htm

0xcde4c3db 10y ago

It seems questionable to me that genes aren't even mentioned in passing when summarizing possible reasons for a specific physiological difference observed in a small, insular population. Especially considering that there are well-documented cases of both genes that accelerate atherosclerosis and specific families with extremely low rates of heart disease that don't seem to be explained by lifestyle factors. If it were all about macros and staying active, why this population and not dozens scattered throughout the world?

ginko 10y ago
I agree. The most interesting thing to check would be to try finding some Tsimane that left to work in the city and check their heart values.
- 0xcde4c3db 10y ago
  That would be interesting, but part of the complexity of this is that "healthy lifestyle" may be as much about fitting together with genetic factors as approaching some universal ideal. I think it would be really interesting (albeit unrealistic) if there were a baby exchange among various populations with high longevity in general or low CVD in particular, and see if there's any significant pattern. Would people with Tsimane ancestry thrive in Okinawa? Would people with Ryukyuan ancestry get a heart attack at 40 living on Sardinia?

haffi112 10y ago

> One idea is that intestinal worms - which dampen immune reactions - could be more common and this may help protect the heart. In case you are interested in this point, then have a look at helminthic therapy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helminthic_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helminthic_therapy).

Nomentatus 10y ago

Very strange that the deleterious effects of artificial light extending the day aren't even mentioned. The evidence keeps mounting, we now know that pRGCs exist, but the old assumptions persist. One isolated tribe in New Zealand I believe it was had wonderful health - until a hydro damn was sited there, and they were given free electricity. Diet matters, but light affects appetite, so what you eat will change as your light exposure changes.