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I don't understand why BP's people think that you can just shove some heavy gunk into the hole and expect it to stay there. Common sense would suggest that you'

I don't understand why BP's people think that you can just shove some heavy gunk into the hole and expect it to stay there. Common sense would suggest that you'd have to start by anchoring something inside the hole which you could use to build a progressively denser matrix. How the hell you do that at 30,000 feet underwater I don't know. Depending on the state of the hole perhaps you could put a hollow, expandable cylinder into the hole. The cylinder also would have a series of hinged blades that could be released and the pressure of the oil would force the blades together and close the leak. Hard to explain without drawing a diagram. Since it's an obvious solution I would guess that there's a good technical reason why it can't be done.

ImFatYoureFat 16y ago
That was kind of my point in creating this thread. While there are some complex elements in play here and it is a problem with many technicalities to it, there aren't THAT many elements to worry about at I understand it. You have water pressure, the pressure of the oil excreting, the depth and breadth of the hole, and how deep it is under water. Further more its not like the solutions that they have tried so far have been particularly high tech (put a cap on it and hope the water pressure with seal it, stuff the hole with crap and hope the water pressure will seal it, put fluid in the hole and hope the water pressure will seal it). There are a lot of smart people on HN, so if nothing else it is good mental masturbation to make suggestions and then explain why those suggestions are or are not feasible.
- ars 16y ago
  > and hope the water pressure will seal it No. The hope was that the weight of a column of heavy mud a mile long would be enough to counteract the pressure.
- stcredzero 16y ago
  That was kind of my point in creating this thread. While there are some complex elements in play here and it is a problem with many technicalities to it, there aren't THAT many elements to worry about at I understand it. People spend years just studying fluid dynamics alone. People spend years studying mechanical engineering by itself. People spend years studying chemistry by itself. People spend years coming to grips with the operational difficulties of undersea operations. What those people would see in this thread is like what we'd see from a bunch of laypeople designing the back-end of a Web app.
anigbrowl 16y ago
Getting a cylinder into the hole seems difficult. An earlier attempt called the 'top hat' involved putting a capped cylinder on top of the hole but apparently methane hydrates, which are lighter than water, started accumulating inside it and it kept lifting off the seabed. So my idea is halfway between the two: place a large, weighted concrete cylinder with no end caps above the hole - a hollow top hat, if you like. It needs to be big, like 25' x 25' or larger; height is more important than diameter. This in itself does nothing to stem the flow - but nor does it obstruct it. So the cylinder can then be sealed around the bottom and fixed to the seabed without interference from the pressure of the outrushing oil. Then one can begin filling the cylinder with gravel or whatever is suitable - smallest material first, working up to rocks. As we begin covering the gusher, the pressure will obviously push some of the filler material out of the way...but as it's inside a cylinder, the filler is just going to get pushed against the side of the cylinder, where its weight is going to increase the downward pressure on the material at the bottom, which has nowhere to go except in towards the center. When the aggregate pressure at the bottom of the cylinder from the sides into the center exceeds the pressure of the oil, it will pinch off the flow, like a valve. This of course assumes perfect packing of the filler material; in reality the oil will diffuse through it, but in doing so the pressure will be distributed across the diameter of the cylinder, which will make it much easier to cap. Or we could just go with Andy Borowitz's suggestion to plug the whole with BP executives....
- moe 16y ago
  but as it's inside a cylinder, the filler is just going to get pushed against the side of the cylinder You lost me there. The cylinder is open at the top, right? Ever try to push your finger into a garden hose? I have no idea with how much pressure the oil is coming out there, but it's probably more than enough to push any gravel out of the way before it makes it into the cylinder.
  - ars 16y ago
    The idea is build a 1 mile long column of dense liquid. Just the pressure of 1 mile of heavy liquid was hopefully enough to balance out the pressure of the oil. It turned out not to be, but that was the hope.
ErrantX 16y ago
It's a smart idea; but I think the failure point there is the pressure. My mech engineering is shaky but I suspect getting a turn to expand under that pressure is hard. Also the hinges sound like a possible weak point.
JshWright 16y ago
It's "only" ~5,000ft of water.
treed 16y ago
Because often you can ram a bunch of gunk down the hole and have it stay there. This is how they have been controlling wells and stopping gushers since the beginning. The problem with asking non petroleum engineers this sort of question is that you get incorrect and useless answers based on very limited "intuition and common sense" and not based on actual knowlege of the discipline.

ImFatYoureFat 16y ago

That was kind of my point in creating this thread. While there are some complex elements in play here and it is a problem with many technicalities to it, there aren't THAT many elements to worry about at I understand it. You have water pressure, the pressure of the oil excreting, the depth and breadth of the hole, and how deep it is under water. Further more its not like the solutions that they have tried so far have been particularly high tech (put a cap on it and hope the water pressure with seal it, stuff the hole with crap and hope the water pressure will seal it, put fluid in the hole and hope the water pressure will seal it). There are a lot of smart people on HN, so if nothing else it is good mental masturbation to make suggestions and then explain why those suggestions are or are not feasible.

ars 16y ago
> and hope the water pressure will seal it No. The hope was that the weight of a column of heavy mud a mile long would be enough to counteract the pressure.
stcredzero 16y ago
That was kind of my point in creating this thread. While there are some complex elements in play here and it is a problem with many technicalities to it, there aren't THAT many elements to worry about at I understand it. People spend years just studying fluid dynamics alone. People spend years studying mechanical engineering by itself. People spend years studying chemistry by itself. People spend years coming to grips with the operational difficulties of undersea operations. What those people would see in this thread is like what we'd see from a bunch of laypeople designing the back-end of a Web app.

anigbrowl 16y ago

Getting a cylinder into the hole seems difficult. An earlier attempt called the 'top hat' involved putting a capped cylinder on top of the hole but apparently methane hydrates, which are lighter than water, started accumulating inside it and it kept lifting off the seabed. So my idea is halfway between the two: place a large, weighted concrete cylinder with no end caps above the hole - a hollow top hat, if you like. It needs to be big, like 25' x 25' or larger; height is more important than diameter. This in itself does nothing to stem the flow - but nor does it obstruct it. So the cylinder can then be sealed around the bottom and fixed to the seabed without interference from the pressure of the outrushing oil. Then one can begin filling the cylinder with gravel or whatever is suitable - smallest material first, working up to rocks. As we begin covering the gusher, the pressure will obviously push some of the filler material out of the way...but as it's inside a cylinder, the filler is just going to get pushed against the side of the cylinder, where its weight is going to increase the downward pressure on the material at the bottom, which has nowhere to go except in towards the center. When the aggregate pressure at the bottom of the cylinder from the sides into the center exceeds the pressure of the oil, it will pinch off the flow, like a valve. This of course assumes perfect packing of the filler material; in reality the oil will diffuse through it, but in doing so the pressure will be distributed across the diameter of the cylinder, which will make it much easier to cap. Or we could just go with Andy Borowitz's suggestion to plug the whole with BP executives....

moe 16y ago
but as it's inside a cylinder, the filler is just going to get pushed against the side of the cylinder You lost me there. The cylinder is open at the top, right? Ever try to push your finger into a garden hose? I have no idea with how much pressure the oil is coming out there, but it's probably more than enough to push any gravel out of the way before it makes it into the cylinder.
- ars 16y ago
  The idea is build a 1 mile long column of dense liquid. Just the pressure of 1 mile of heavy liquid was hopefully enough to balance out the pressure of the oil. It turned out not to be, but that was the hope.

ErrantX 16y ago

It's a smart idea; but I think the failure point there is the pressure. My mech engineering is shaky but I suspect getting a turn to expand under that pressure is hard. Also the hinges sound like a possible weak point.

JshWright 16y ago

It's "only" ~5,000ft of water.

treed 16y ago

Because often you can ram a bunch of gunk down the hole and have it stay there. This is how they have been controlling wells and stopping gushers since the beginning. The problem with asking non petroleum engineers this sort of question is that you get incorrect and useless answers based on very limited "intuition and common sense" and not based on actual knowlege of the discipline.