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Legally Google is different. They are required to keep records that brick and mortar businesses do not. They have a de-facto monopoly as the largest search pr

by Steeeve 10y ago

Legally Google is different. They are required to keep records that brick and mortar businesses do not. They have a de-facto monopoly as the largest search provider for the general populace. They are a public resource that is a requirement for many of us to use in our day to day lives. Google in this instance is more like a library card catalog that keeps records of all of the things people search for. This is the same as asking a library for all people who looked for books on dogs. Google not only has adults that search for things. They have grade school children in their datasets. If you are OK with this request, are you OK with the subsequent request to facebook that says "give me the social network tree for all of the people within this dataset"? we're looking for a woman who knows one of the people that searched for Douglass on Google within the Edina area. And then the final query to AT&T, "we need the phone records for all of the households on this list of women who are within 3 links to people who searched for Douglass in the Edina area"? This is an overly broad search with no particular limit and no logical connection to the crime. The police don't know for certain that the thief arrived at the image used via a google search, let alone a google search for someone's first name. They don't know for certain that the thief was in the Edina area. They don't know for certain that the thief was in the Edina area when searching.

JumpCrisscross 10y ago
> [Google] are required to keep records that brick and mortar businesses do not What records are Google required to keep that e.g. DuckDuckGo are not?
- Steeeve 10y ago
  duck duck go isn't brick and mortar, but... 1. Google is an ISP, is DuckDuckGo an ISP? 2. Google is a telecommunications services provider, is DuckDuckGo a telecommunications services provider? Those are two major categories that require data logging and retention in the U.S., and there are a lot of countries that have their own data logging and retention laws. Google because of it's size has active business presence in more countries and would therefore ensure itself to be compliant with local laws with more vigor than a significantly smaller company, especially one that was more focused on search. Google has it's hands in a lot of different kinds of businesses, many of which have already been targeted for logging and retention laws somewhere in the world.
  - dpark 10y ago
    The fact that Google owns an ISP is irrelevant to its search business. Not only are they unrelated, they are legally isolated in different corporations.
rayiner 10y ago
The American Library Association guidelines provide disclosure of records in response to a valid court order. Also, since your Library hypothetical trades on the special position of libraries In our society, it should be noted that libraries don't profit by rummaging through the books you read to advertise to you.
- spaceribs 10y ago
  > it should be noted that libraries don't profit by rummaging through the books you read to advertise to you. They do present/display/advertise their most popular books. They track and fine you if you keep a book too long. They determine how much a book has been checked out and track usage at an analytics level to determine if the book should be taken out of circulation. Maybe search engines should have a special status like libraries enjoy, but it's worth noting the centuries it took for public libraries to become a municipal requirement.
- Steeeve 10y ago
  > The American Library Association guidelines provide disclosure of records in response to a valid court order You are overstating there by a long shot. The guidelines are more along the lines of "if you have completely failed at making the police go away in any of the previous 72 steps, then you must comply, but hopefully you read our other guidelines that tell you it's a good idea to not create any records and if you must, to dispose of them frequently."
  - clubm8 10y ago
    How long does a typical library retain records after a book is returned?
    - abeyer 10y ago
      It depends on your library. Many have a policy of destroying records immediately after books are returned unless you request otherwise (eg to be able to see your borrowing history in your account.)
tomcam 10y ago
> Legally Google is different... They are required to keep records that brick and mortar businesses do not. > They have a de-facto monopoly as the largest search provider for the general populace. > They are a public resource that is a requirement for many of us to use in our day to day lives. Wait, what? Has the "defacto monopoly" been legally established? They're a "public resource?" Please cite the legal meaning of "public resource" and where it was established through legislation or judicial action that Google is one?
- hadrien01 10y ago
  > Wait, what? Has the "defacto monopoly" been legally established? I don't know where you live, but on my planet Google has an 80%+ market share.
- amorphid 10y ago
  Punting on arguing for or against Google being a monopoly or utility, I will say there are a large number of people who trust Google. There are many, many ways that trust can be violated. As my coworker might say, they have a rather large attack surface.
  - tomcam 10y ago
    Once regulated by the government, there is an even larger attack surface, as we in the USA have learned over the years, most notably with the recent Wikileaks dump.
- Steeeve 10y ago
  https://definitions.uslegal.com/d/de-facto-monopoly/ https://definitions.uslegal.com/d/de-facto-monopoly/ Jiminy christmas. I made a comment on hackernews and you're trying to parse it like we're in a court of law. The fact is that Google is different than a mom and pop shop with a video camera. It's ludicrous to suggest otherwise.
  - tomcam 10y ago
    Forgive me for quoting you. You started with "Legally Google is different" so I assumed you wanted to talk law or legislation. Also, I don't recall comparing Google to smaller organizations. I may be oversensitive, but when I hear terms like "They are a public resource" I assume you mean that they should therefore be regulated by the government and paid for with tax money.

by Steeeve 10y ago

JumpCrisscross 10y ago

> [Google] are required to keep records that brick and mortar businesses do not What records are Google required to keep that e.g. DuckDuckGo are not?

Steeeve 10y ago
duck duck go isn't brick and mortar, but... 1. Google is an ISP, is DuckDuckGo an ISP? 2. Google is a telecommunications services provider, is DuckDuckGo a telecommunications services provider? Those are two major categories that require data logging and retention in the U.S., and there are a lot of countries that have their own data logging and retention laws. Google because of it's size has active business presence in more countries and would therefore ensure itself to be compliant with local laws with more vigor than a significantly smaller company, especially one that was more focused on search. Google has it's hands in a lot of different kinds of businesses, many of which have already been targeted for logging and retention laws somewhere in the world.
- dpark 10y ago
  The fact that Google owns an ISP is irrelevant to its search business. Not only are they unrelated, they are legally isolated in different corporations.

rayiner 10y ago

The American Library Association guidelines provide disclosure of records in response to a valid court order. Also, since your Library hypothetical trades on the special position of libraries In our society, it should be noted that libraries don't profit by rummaging through the books you read to advertise to you.

spaceribs 10y ago
> it should be noted that libraries don't profit by rummaging through the books you read to advertise to you. They do present/display/advertise their most popular books. They track and fine you if you keep a book too long. They determine how much a book has been checked out and track usage at an analytics level to determine if the book should be taken out of circulation. Maybe search engines should have a special status like libraries enjoy, but it's worth noting the centuries it took for public libraries to become a municipal requirement.
Steeeve 10y ago
> The American Library Association guidelines provide disclosure of records in response to a valid court order You are overstating there by a long shot. The guidelines are more along the lines of "if you have completely failed at making the police go away in any of the previous 72 steps, then you must comply, but hopefully you read our other guidelines that tell you it's a good idea to not create any records and if you must, to dispose of them frequently."
- clubm8 10y ago
  How long does a typical library retain records after a book is returned?
  - abeyer 10y ago
    It depends on your library. Many have a policy of destroying records immediately after books are returned unless you request otherwise (eg to be able to see your borrowing history in your account.)

tomcam 10y ago

> Legally Google is different... They are required to keep records that brick and mortar businesses do not. > They have a de-facto monopoly as the largest search provider for the general populace. > They are a public resource that is a requirement for many of us to use in our day to day lives. Wait, what? Has the "defacto monopoly" been legally established? They're a "public resource?" Please cite the legal meaning of "public resource" and where it was established through legislation or judicial action that Google is one?

hadrien01 10y ago
> Wait, what? Has the "defacto monopoly" been legally established? I don't know where you live, but on my planet Google has an 80%+ market share.
amorphid 10y ago
Punting on arguing for or against Google being a monopoly or utility, I will say there are a large number of people who trust Google. There are many, many ways that trust can be violated. As my coworker might say, they have a rather large attack surface.
- tomcam 10y ago
  Once regulated by the government, there is an even larger attack surface, as we in the USA have learned over the years, most notably with the recent Wikileaks dump.
Steeeve 10y ago
https://definitions.uslegal.com/d/de-facto-monopoly/ https://definitions.uslegal.com/d/de-facto-monopoly/ Jiminy christmas. I made a comment on hackernews and you're trying to parse it like we're in a court of law. The fact is that Google is different than a mom and pop shop with a video camera. It's ludicrous to suggest otherwise.
- tomcam 10y ago
  Forgive me for quoting you. You started with "Legally Google is different" so I assumed you wanted to talk law or legislation. Also, I don't recall comparing Google to smaller organizations. I may be oversensitive, but when I hear terms like "They are a public resource" I assume you mean that they should therefore be regulated by the government and paid for with tax money.