7 ms·

"How about every 60 minutes you work, 30 minutes of that is spent establishing the world around you?" I am perfectly happy to look at it that way, and indeed I

by rsync 10y ago

"How about every 60 minutes you work, 30 minutes of that is spent establishing the world around you?" I am perfectly happy to look at it that way, and indeed I do. Please don't deploy the "I'm arguing with the anti-tax guy" toolkit here - I am not that guy. The problem I have, and that I think many people have, is that fraction: 30/60 = 1/2 = getting a bit silly. YMMV.

jchrisa 10y ago
That's the American right propaganda sinking in. Times of higher tax burden have been economically more productive. It's already the government's money. Redistributive taxation is parsimonious use of funds. Great chart in here about USA tax burden being below average: https://taxfoundation.org/comparison-tax-burden-labor-oecd-2016/ https://taxfoundation.org/comparison-tax-burden-labor-oecd-2...
- lap42 10y ago
  Right propaganda or freedom propaganda? You are entitled of what you've done, period. Anything above 10% is theft. "Times of higher tax burden have been economically more productive" -> this is just false, a falacy. Prove it somehow. Sweden was a very rich nation before high taxes, now it's just rich, net jobs after high taxation in 50 years is ZERO. They are just letting go now, cutting taxes more and more. I wonder why US economy is booming right now, maybe because Trump is going to cut taxes?! Oops...
  - bbctol 10y ago
    Well, the government has defended you from foreign threats, protected the monetary system that lets you earn in the first place, provided for your public education, established your infrastructure, and been a check against your home burning down or being robbed. If everyone's entitled to what they've done, what are they entitled to? Capitalism is a system, like any other, created by humans and not found in nature. "Ownership" is not some property of matter; what it means to own something is that there is a legal system that supports that deed and an armed police and military to enforce it. There is no concept of ownership except for a truly anarchic "everything I own is in a box that I have the key to" idea that does not require other people to guarantee your property rights.
  - SpikeDad 10y ago
    Oops my ass. The US economy is not booming - the US stock market is artificially inflated because investment speculators are betting that companies are going to use this obscene period in time to take advantage and do whatever they want to increase corporate profits in further concentrate the wealth in smaller and smaller circles.
TillE 10y ago
If you're going to that abstract level, what does the dollar amount of the money you're "earning" even mean? Everything is part of a huge system.
jlebar 10y ago
The problem I have, and that I think many people have, is that fraction: 30/60 = 1/2 = getting a bit silly. But why? I mean, are you just rationalizing? "I think 50% taxes is a lot just because I do, therefore I think it's bad policy." Or is there a logical reason that 50% is "a bit silly" but, say, 30% (or whatever your number is) is fine? This is something that Nobel prize-winning economists fight over -- exactly how high a tax rate is too high? -- so I kind of doubt we're going to resolve it here on HN. My point is that we all have feelings ("I don't like the color mauve", "50% taxes rubs me the wrong way"), but these have to be separate from motives for enacting policy.
- braveo 10y ago
  You're only 1/2 way away from slave labor at that point. And when you factor in other taxes, you pay more than 50%, it's too much. And if I choose not to pay those taxes, my freedom is taken away, so don't tell me the slave point is invalid.
  - esrauch 10y ago
    His point is that the same things apply to 30% tax: you are only 2/3 away from being a slave, if you don't pay your 30% your freedom is taken away. There isn't a rational difference between 30 and 50, the only difference is "I feel that it is too much", right?
    - braveo 10y ago
      There is absolutely a rational difference between 30 and 50%.
      - esrauch 10y ago
        The numbers are clearly different, but not in the "one is slavery and the other is not" kind of way right?
        braveo 10y ago
JustAnotherPat 10y ago
what about passive income i.e. 0/60? Should that be taxed at 99% since you're not spending any time working for it? Conflating time worked with a tax rate seems like a red herring to me.
- ferentchak 10y ago
  I always think it's interesting how we actually tax capital gains much less than normal salaries. It's weird that that income doesn't need to contribute to our society and help pay for things like Medicare but income that you work for does. My understanding is that there is some fancy economic theories that say this is the right way to do things that I don't have the knowledge to confirm nor deny. Economists aside it still feels wonky™.

by rsync 10y ago

jchrisa 10y ago

That's the American right propaganda sinking in. Times of higher tax burden have been economically more productive. It's already the government's money. Redistributive taxation is parsimonious use of funds. Great chart in here about USA tax burden being below average: https://taxfoundation.org/comparison-tax-burden-labor-oecd-2016/ https://taxfoundation.org/comparison-tax-burden-labor-oecd-2...

lap42 10y ago
Right propaganda or freedom propaganda? You are entitled of what you've done, period. Anything above 10% is theft. "Times of higher tax burden have been economically more productive" -> this is just false, a falacy. Prove it somehow. Sweden was a very rich nation before high taxes, now it's just rich, net jobs after high taxation in 50 years is ZERO. They are just letting go now, cutting taxes more and more. I wonder why US economy is booming right now, maybe because Trump is going to cut taxes?! Oops...
- bbctol 10y ago
  Well, the government has defended you from foreign threats, protected the monetary system that lets you earn in the first place, provided for your public education, established your infrastructure, and been a check against your home burning down or being robbed. If everyone's entitled to what they've done, what are they entitled to? Capitalism is a system, like any other, created by humans and not found in nature. "Ownership" is not some property of matter; what it means to own something is that there is a legal system that supports that deed and an armed police and military to enforce it. There is no concept of ownership except for a truly anarchic "everything I own is in a box that I have the key to" idea that does not require other people to guarantee your property rights.
- SpikeDad 10y ago
  Oops my ass. The US economy is not booming - the US stock market is artificially inflated because investment speculators are betting that companies are going to use this obscene period in time to take advantage and do whatever they want to increase corporate profits in further concentrate the wealth in smaller and smaller circles.

TillE 10y ago

If you're going to that abstract level, what does the dollar amount of the money you're "earning" even mean? Everything is part of a huge system.

jlebar 10y ago

The problem I have, and that I think many people have, is that fraction: 30/60 = 1/2 = getting a bit silly. But why? I mean, are you just rationalizing? "I think 50% taxes is a lot just because I do, therefore I think it's bad policy." Or is there a logical reason that 50% is "a bit silly" but, say, 30% (or whatever your number is) is fine? This is something that Nobel prize-winning economists fight over -- exactly how high a tax rate is too high? -- so I kind of doubt we're going to resolve it here on HN. My point is that we all have feelings ("I don't like the color mauve", "50% taxes rubs me the wrong way"), but these have to be separate from motives for enacting policy.

braveo 10y ago
You're only 1/2 way away from slave labor at that point. And when you factor in other taxes, you pay more than 50%, it's too much. And if I choose not to pay those taxes, my freedom is taken away, so don't tell me the slave point is invalid.
- esrauch 10y ago
  His point is that the same things apply to 30% tax: you are only 2/3 away from being a slave, if you don't pay your 30% your freedom is taken away. There isn't a rational difference between 30 and 50, the only difference is "I feel that it is too much", right?
  - braveo 10y ago
    There is absolutely a rational difference between 30 and 50%.
    - esrauch 10y ago
      The numbers are clearly different, but not in the "one is slavery and the other is not" kind of way right?
      - braveo 10y ago

JustAnotherPat 10y ago

what about passive income i.e. 0/60? Should that be taxed at 99% since you're not spending any time working for it? Conflating time worked with a tax rate seems like a red herring to me.

ferentchak 10y ago
I always think it's interesting how we actually tax capital gains much less than normal salaries. It's weird that that income doesn't need to contribute to our society and help pay for things like Medicare but income that you work for does. My understanding is that there is some fancy economic theories that say this is the right way to do things that I don't have the knowledge to confirm nor deny. Economists aside it still feels wonky™.