5 ms·

Looks like my s/o and I could be making a claim as part of the settlement class. Didn't get much use out of the app, the bluetooth connection was super unreliab

Looks like my s/o and I could be making a claim as part of the settlement class. Didn't get much use out of the app, the bluetooth connection was super unreliable. That said, I take it as a given that any app I install on my phone is probably tracking my usage of their app. Dropping in Mixpanel or Heap or some other analytics lib that tracks feature usage seems like such a standard part of developing a mobile app, I'd be surprised if a developer didn't do it.

rch 10y ago
There should still be disclosure and opt-in seems only fair for paying customers.
- bsder 10y ago
  I suspect it was part of the click-through license for the app. I suspect the company would actually have prevailed. You didn't have to use the app, and the click-through almost certainly had the correct legal language. Precedent would also be on their side. I also suspect the negative press and legal fees would be more than the profit they made on these vibrators. If we assume $100 of profit on each on we're only talking roughly 40,000 units sold.
  - follower 10y ago
    > I suspect it was part of the click-through license for the app. [snip] > ...the click-through almost certainly had the correct legal language... The claim of the original suit stated that it wasn't and didn't. And, after the original press coverage of our DEF CON talk, the company updated its policies to be more transparent about what it was doing. > You didn't have to use the app True, but the company specifically sold an "app-only" version (that had no physical remote control unit) and the original suit claimed that the company justified its premium price in part because it was app connected. > I also suspect the negative press and legal fees would be more than the profit they made on these vibrators. > If we assume $100 of profit on each on we're only talking roughly 40,000 units sold. From the article: "An estimated 300,000 people bought Bluetooth-enabled WeVibes..."
    - bsder 10y ago
      > From the article: "An estimated 300,000 people bought Bluetooth-enabled WeVibes..." I find that hugely suspect. That would imply almost a $60-90 million business (those things are expensive for a vibrator). That's a bit off from the financials of "Standard Innovation" the parent corp.
      - dangrossman 10y ago
        They retail through Amazon and other stores for $179 to $250ish. They sell to retailers through distributors, so you've got two levels of markup. If they're wholesaling for more like $50 and have been available since 2014, that's just $5M a year or so on SI's books. I wasn't able to find any financials for the company in a quick Google except this CNBC quote from 2013, before the We-Vibe 4 app-enabled product came out: > We-Vibe, which retails for $79-$170, has been one of those big hits. Over the past five years, the device has amassed cumulative sales of $100 million. And it's gaining momentum. In 2012, the company says, annual sales were 50 percent higher than the preceding year—and the company had revenues of $35 million. It expects those revenues to land between $45 million and $50 million this calendar year. http://www.cnbc.com/id/100828629 http://www.cnbc.com/id/100828629
        bsder 10y ago
        Okay, I guess it really did sell that many cumulatively. $100 million in sales translates to about 300,000-500,000 units. So, the numbers would be consistent.
CoolGuySteve 10y ago
Some might say, Dan Grossman, that discretion is the better part of valour when disclosing your vibrator purchases on the internet. I actually don't care, I just found it funny that you're posting under your real name without shame. It's refreshing, but I think it's also one of the ways techies are significantly different than the rest of the population.
- baddox 10y ago
  Is that a reasonable thing to be ashamed of? Sure, it's a private topic that you might not discuss casually with your parents or priest, but I would stop short of calling it something to be ashamed of.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- alpha_squared 10y ago
  I think it's fascinating that societies swing back and forth, like the pendulum of a grandfather clock, between liberal and conservative accepted social norms. I wonder if these swings become more pronounced or less over time.
- clarebear 10y ago
  I have no personal knowledge of Dan Grossman, but in my experience, techie guys might over report indications of sexual activity and prowess on the internet ;-)
  - 5ilv3r 10y ago
    Techies are data driven folks. You're thinking of the REST of humanity.
    - freehunter 10y ago
      Yeah because being the SOAP of humanity is so last year.
sexyvibrator 10y ago
Me too, though I've since broken up with that ex which might make the payout complicated! Do you know how to register to get the payout?
Lazare 10y ago
I'm in the same boat. Bought the toy, found the bluetooth connection was almost hilariously bad, gave up on it, but sort of assumed they were recording usage data and analytics because that's what you do. It's odd, there's all these privacy and security scandals going on, and nobody seems to care about them. And then here it turns out that a mobile app that I logged into into is actually logging stuff, like every mobile app ever, and it's a huge scandal and a lawsuit and now a settlement? I don't get it. I'm not even sure I understand what they were did that was wrong. I could understand a lawsuit over how crap their bluetooth was (I can't stress enough just how horrible it was), but over the fact that their mobile app logged usage? Really? Newsflash: When you buy a vibrator from a vendor, they know you're going to use it. That's what people do with them. What next, a lawsuit that Amazon is tracking your purchases on Amazon? Man, do you think Facebook might have some logs of what you click on in the Facebook app?
- follower 10y ago
  > I'm not even sure I understand what they were did that was wrong The original complaint states: * "Defendant never informed Plaintiff that it would monitor, collect, and transmit her Usage Information." * "Plaintiff never provided her consent to Defendant to monitor, collect, and transmit her Usage Information." * "Plaintiff would never have purchased a We-Vibe had she known that in order to use its full functionality, Defendant would monitor, collect, and transmit her Usage Information through We-Connect." The claims were based on potential violations of: "Wiretap Act", "Illinois Eavesdropping Act", "Illinois Consumer Fraud and Deceptive Business Practice Act;", "intrusion upon seclusion" and "unjustly enriched through its conduct." Of particular interest to me was the "Wiretap" angle--my understanding is that the suit claimed that--because analytics were transmitted over the internet even when the app was used solo--the company was unlawfully intercepting the customer's command being transmitted over Bluetooth between the phone and device.
follower 10y ago
> the bluetooth connection was super unreliable. Human bodies make great faraday cages. > analytics lib that tracks feature usage seems like such a standard part of developing a mobile app Right, and we talked about this in a follow-up TEDx talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxRSjC1rPmA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxRSjC1rPmA Just because analytics are a standard practice doesn't mean they should be a standard practice for any particular product. Developers for more personal/intimate devices need to recognise the impact their data collection may have; that different people have different "Device Intimacy Spectrums" (e.g. people who live in places where adult toys are illegal will be more concerned about what is collected); and, gain informed consent for any data they collect.

rch 10y ago

There should still be disclosure and opt-in seems only fair for paying customers.

bsder 10y ago
I suspect it was part of the click-through license for the app. I suspect the company would actually have prevailed. You didn't have to use the app, and the click-through almost certainly had the correct legal language. Precedent would also be on their side. I also suspect the negative press and legal fees would be more than the profit they made on these vibrators. If we assume $100 of profit on each on we're only talking roughly 40,000 units sold.
- follower 10y ago
  > I suspect it was part of the click-through license for the app. [snip] > ...the click-through almost certainly had the correct legal language... The claim of the original suit stated that it wasn't and didn't. And, after the original press coverage of our DEF CON talk, the company updated its policies to be more transparent about what it was doing. > You didn't have to use the app True, but the company specifically sold an "app-only" version (that had no physical remote control unit) and the original suit claimed that the company justified its premium price in part because it was app connected. > I also suspect the negative press and legal fees would be more than the profit they made on these vibrators. > If we assume $100 of profit on each on we're only talking roughly 40,000 units sold. From the article: "An estimated 300,000 people bought Bluetooth-enabled WeVibes..."
  - bsder 10y ago
    > From the article: "An estimated 300,000 people bought Bluetooth-enabled WeVibes..." I find that hugely suspect. That would imply almost a $60-90 million business (those things are expensive for a vibrator). That's a bit off from the financials of "Standard Innovation" the parent corp.
    - dangrossman 10y ago
      They retail through Amazon and other stores for $179 to $250ish. They sell to retailers through distributors, so you've got two levels of markup. If they're wholesaling for more like $50 and have been available since 2014, that's just $5M a year or so on SI's books. I wasn't able to find any financials for the company in a quick Google except this CNBC quote from 2013, before the We-Vibe 4 app-enabled product came out: > We-Vibe, which retails for $79-$170, has been one of those big hits. Over the past five years, the device has amassed cumulative sales of $100 million. And it's gaining momentum. In 2012, the company says, annual sales were 50 percent higher than the preceding year—and the company had revenues of $35 million. It expects those revenues to land between $45 million and $50 million this calendar year. http://www.cnbc.com/id/100828629 http://www.cnbc.com/id/100828629
      - bsder 10y ago
        Okay, I guess it really did sell that many cumulatively. $100 million in sales translates to about 300,000-500,000 units. So, the numbers would be consistent.

CoolGuySteve 10y ago

Some might say, Dan Grossman, that discretion is the better part of valour when disclosing your vibrator purchases on the internet. I actually don't care, I just found it funny that you're posting under your real name without shame. It's refreshing, but I think it's also one of the ways techies are significantly different than the rest of the population.

baddox 10y ago
Is that a reasonable thing to be ashamed of? Sure, it's a private topic that you might not discuss casually with your parents or priest, but I would stop short of calling it something to be ashamed of.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
alpha_squared 10y ago
I think it's fascinating that societies swing back and forth, like the pendulum of a grandfather clock, between liberal and conservative accepted social norms. I wonder if these swings become more pronounced or less over time.
clarebear 10y ago
I have no personal knowledge of Dan Grossman, but in my experience, techie guys might over report indications of sexual activity and prowess on the internet ;-)
- 5ilv3r 10y ago
  Techies are data driven folks. You're thinking of the REST of humanity.
  - freehunter 10y ago
    Yeah because being the SOAP of humanity is so last year.

sexyvibrator 10y ago

Me too, though I've since broken up with that ex which might make the payout complicated! Do you know how to register to get the payout?

Lazare 10y ago

I'm in the same boat. Bought the toy, found the bluetooth connection was almost hilariously bad, gave up on it, but sort of assumed they were recording usage data and analytics because that's what you do. It's odd, there's all these privacy and security scandals going on, and nobody seems to care about them. And then here it turns out that a mobile app that I logged into into is actually logging stuff, like every mobile app ever, and it's a huge scandal and a lawsuit and now a settlement? I don't get it. I'm not even sure I understand what they were did that was wrong. I could understand a lawsuit over how crap their bluetooth was (I can't stress enough just how horrible it was), but over the fact that their mobile app logged usage? Really? Newsflash: When you buy a vibrator from a vendor, they know you're going to use it. That's what people do with them. What next, a lawsuit that Amazon is tracking your purchases on Amazon? Man, do you think Facebook might have some logs of what you click on in the Facebook app?

follower 10y ago
> I'm not even sure I understand what they were did that was wrong The original complaint states: * "Defendant never informed Plaintiff that it would monitor, collect, and transmit her Usage Information." * "Plaintiff never provided her consent to Defendant to monitor, collect, and transmit her Usage Information." * "Plaintiff would never have purchased a We-Vibe had she known that in order to use its full functionality, Defendant would monitor, collect, and transmit her Usage Information through We-Connect." The claims were based on potential violations of: "Wiretap Act", "Illinois Eavesdropping Act", "Illinois Consumer Fraud and Deceptive Business Practice Act;", "intrusion upon seclusion" and "unjustly enriched through its conduct." Of particular interest to me was the "Wiretap" angle--my understanding is that the suit claimed that--because analytics were transmitted over the internet even when the app was used solo--the company was unlawfully intercepting the customer's command being transmitted over Bluetooth between the phone and device.

follower 10y ago

> the bluetooth connection was super unreliable. Human bodies make great faraday cages. > analytics lib that tracks feature usage seems like such a standard part of developing a mobile app Right, and we talked about this in a follow-up TEDx talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxRSjC1rPmA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxRSjC1rPmA Just because analytics are a standard practice doesn't mean they should be a standard practice for any particular product. Developers for more personal/intimate devices need to recognise the impact their data collection may have; that different people have different "Device Intimacy Spectrums" (e.g. people who live in places where adult toys are illegal will be more concerned about what is collected); and, gain informed consent for any data they collect.