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> The Transportation Department is withholding $647 million in federal grants for a $1.9 billion project that would modernize and increase the capacity of Caltr
by rebootthesystem 10y ago
> The Transportation Department is withholding $647 million in federal grants for a $1.9 billion project that would modernize and increase the capacity of Caltrain. About 65,000 people use the rail line every day to commute between San Francisco and San Jose
OK. Just thinking out loud here. $1.9 billion. 65,000 people per day. That's about $30K per person.
In other words, you can almost buy a Tesla Model 3 for each person. Yet, that would not deal with congestion. Scratch that idea.
Is this a point-to-point route? Are most of those people going from San Jose to San Francisco or are there a ton of stops in the way?
Next thought is: How many electric buses could one purchase with that money? At $400K each, 4,750 buses. That's a lot of eco-friendly buses!
OK, but, how many do we need to move 65,000 people per day? Well, if all 65,000 want to go at once, about 1,625 buses. And that would cost $650 billion, or 1/3 of the $1.9 billion set aside for this project.
How would 1,625 electric buses, for 1/3 the cost, affect the region?
Yet, it is probably reasonable to assume we don't need to move all 65,000 people at once.
In looking around it seems reasonable to assume around 2,000 riders per hour on average. If we go with 10,000 (why not?) we would need 250 buses. Now our equipment cost is down to $100 million.
BTW, if we switch to natural gas buses that cost goes down to $62.5 million. Not saying this is the best option, just providing comparative data.
I am not going to reach any conclusion here. Just exploring very, very rough numbers quickly. I think this would only work well if the bus riders are "long haul", meaning they don't have to stop at every freeway off-ramp and navigate surface streets to pick-up and drop-off people.
One could use check-in/out to optimize bus routes. Don't stop where nobody wants to get on/off.
There's a lot of space between $100 million and $1.9 billion. That's 19 times more taxpayer money spent. Is this sensible? Does it survive mathematical analysis more strict than my quick 10 minute think?
On the one side I think I'd rather spend $100 to even as high as $500 million on an electric powered bus infrastructure. Why? Because this would be a huge shot in the arm for that industry and the consequences could ripple throughout the nation. Bus prices could go down from the current $400K, new technologies could be spurred into existence and electric vehicle adoption across the board (passenger cars) is likely to see gains as well.
My numbers could be completely off the mark, I know. That said, on an admittedly very flawed first inspection, I would not be surprised if investing a few hundred million on a next-generation electric bus transport system might be better than dumping 19 times more money on rail.
I doubt this approach would make any sense at all in a place like Los Angeles, but this Caltrain case might be unique.
I'd rather invest in the future whenever possible.
- scythe 10y agoThe rider experience associated with boarding >20 buses per hour per station at rush houris likely to be nightmarish. It's not ideal to screw over transit riders; there's a reason Caltrain was built in the first place. If people switch to cars, there are major hidden costs. You're also ignoring the cost of 250 * ~$80k/year * [weekend-factor ~= 2] + insurance for the drivers and maintenance on the buses which will quickly eat up your margin. Personally I think the Dumbarton rail bridge would improve the overall economy more by shifting some activity towards the cheaper South Bay but Caltrain electrification is a very good thing.
- acomjean 10y agoHow I think of it: its 1.9 Billion to upgrade the line and increase capacity. Say double capacity. You have to average that out over the life expectancy of the upgrade (20 years maybe, how long have the tracks been there now). Of course there are maintenance and operation fees, but the railway is probably paying those now. So in construction costs: 1900000000 dollar /130000 riders /20 year = 700 $/rider/year. It helps the economy of the city/state as more people can live and work there increasing you tax base. Helps housing smooth out housing prices a little as people can commute the same time from further out. Also you have to compare against the cost of increasing road capacity. Trains carry a lot of people and aren't subject to traffic like busses. Nobody likes taking the bus, it has a stigma for some reason. Its expensive, but infrastructure always is. Oddly so in the US.
- ubernostrum 10y agoIn looking around it seems reasonable to assume around 2,000 riders per hour on average. Nope. Most riders are on the train at the same time most drivers are on the freeways -- during morning and evening rush hours. And that's also when Caltrain runs most of its trains -- outside of the rush-hour periods, they only run one train per hour in each direction, while during rush hour you see a train more like every 15 minutes. So you do need to move most of those 65,000 people all in a short time period, which means any road-based alternative will just be contributing to the already-bad congestion on the roads at those hours, and will need its entire fleet mobilized during the rush hours in order to try to keep up with demand.
- justinc8687 10y ago