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Really? Than why so many leaked memos show that Bannon and Miller want to reduce family Visas for those already legally here? Why is Bannon and Miller's favorit
by cromwellian 10y ago
Really? Than why so many leaked memos show that Bannon and Miller want to reduce family Visas for those already legally here? Why is Bannon and Miller's favorite novel a racist French book about Europe becoming less white? Why when Bannon was interviewed on radio he said he wanted to bring the numbers on legal immigration way down?
You're fooling yourself if you think this is just about undocumented Mexicans, Muslims, or H1-B abuse. There's way too much circumstantial rhetoric that's been said that indicates this is something more and we invite peril if we don't harshly
Critique it.
- pm90 10y agoFirst they came for the "Illegals"... Rhetoric aside, as you pointed out, this is only the beginning. Authoritarians always need a scrapegoat to blame for "failed policies". Once one group is eliminated, on to another.
- jlebrech 10y agothis is also called the slippery slope fallacy.
- 24gttghh 10y agoThis is also called history repeating/rhyming with itself.
- cromwellian 10y agoIt's not when there's already evidence that we're slipping down the slope. We have verbal interviews of Steve Bannon's intent and philosophy and leaked drafts of policies aimed at slashing legal immigration by 50%. Supporters of Trump and his policies go out of their way to try and soften and explain what he "really" means by saying to ignore what he or his advisors literally say. I think this is dangerously naive and the time is past giving the benefit of the doubt and sticking to rigid logical standards. This isn't philosophy class and this stuff poses real world dangers.
- jinfiesto 10y agoWhile I appreciate the recognition of the fallacy, just because the reasoning fits the template for a fallacious argument doesn't mean that it is. The slippery slope argument is only a fallacy if other evidence doesn't exist to suggest we're on such a slope. There is historical precedent in this particular instance...
- jlebrech 10y agoit doesn't just work when it applies to bigots, it applies to everyone.
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- anigbrowl 10y agoIt's not a slippery slope when it's supported by evidentiary claims: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope#Non-fallacious_usage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope#Non-fallacious_...
- dsfyu404ed 10y agoThere is no list of examples long enough to get the gun control people to understand why none of the pro-gun people trust them at all. Why should evidence matter here?
- pm90 10y agoI had to look this up :). But I would have to disagree on that. Trump/Bannon have a recorded history of anti-immigration, anti-muslim rhetoric. And they also took a pretty long time to openly call out against the antisemitism. The Obama administration has deported many many illegal immigrants and yet I've never felt that way for them.
- Scriptor 10y agoSlippery slopes have happened before.
- thegp 10y agothis is also called the fallacy fallacy There is ample historic precedent for regimes and loud minorities implementing agendas by first going after the easiest targets (jews, kurds,hooligans,illegal immigrants) then slightly generalising (disabled, kurdish supporters, all "potentially violent", immigrants in general) in some steps until the end goal (political opponents, political opponents, political opponents and...political opponents). Hence in this case, the slippery slope is a given and justified.
- elastic_church 10y agoFirst they came for the illegals but I didn't speak up because my 401k has been making massive gains and this whole administration has been awesome for me but I can't say that out loud in California because people are still imagining a reason to lose their minds while the checks and balances are working out as intended the whole time!
- GrinningFool 10y agoGiven the current composition of Congress and appointees, checks and balances are hanging on by a thread at the moment. That is what has people worried.
- elastic_church 10y agoI know right, especially after Preet Bharara and all those judges got fired! Can't wait for this week's episode I'm on the edge of my seat
- cromwellian 10y agoAnd your 401k was up massively since Obama took office as well long before this current wave of anti-immigrant sentiment. The market is up because of an irrational belief that Trump is going to enact the pipe dreams of the SeekingAlpha crowd with massive tax cuts that the Democrats are never going to approve. Statistics show most likely there is going to be a big correction and a recession on Trump's watch. Never in the US's 200+ year history has it gone more than 11 years without a recession, check the NBER data. So given the likely downturn in the markets when people realize that this stuff isn't going to be enacted, will speak up then because it's no longer "awesome" for you?
- elastic_church 10y agoDecade long QE money machibe whoop whoop Im well positioned for the bear market
- maerF0x0 10y agoIts only because the trough was so deep. Its hard not to have a massive gain during your presidency just after a crash. To be clear, I think presidents have little to do with market moves. So they should not be accredited with gains nor blamed for falls.
- masondixon 10y ago> Authoritarians Why do you think they are authoritarians. I don't get this. The right in the US is about freedom. The left is the part of authoritarianism. The progressive left especially has incredibly tight control of freedom of speech. Everything they don't like is called hate speech, all discussions are shut down, and PC terminology means that it doesn't matter what you say anymore, if you accidentally choose the wrong words, you are finished.
- linkregister 10y agoWhat legal/government-imposed consequences have arisen from the type of speech you are talking about?
- masondixon 10y agoThe left physically prevents speakers at right-wing events. Protests blocking highways and roads to right-wing events. During the campaign name a single time when Trump supporters tried to prevent a left-wing speaking event happening? The right is like "hey i think you are wrong, here is why". The left is like "hey i think you are wrong, don't talk to me".
- nostrademons 10y agoI think it's more accurate that both the extreme right and extreme left are the parties of authoritarianism, and the center is about freedom. Leftists want to police what you say, what you think, how you earn your living, and who you associate with. Rightists want to police what you believe, what you do with your body, what substances you inhale, and how you travel. Both sides would do well with a chill pill and the idea that people could be or believe differently than you without being a threat.
- timthelion 10y agoI begg to differ, the tumbler crowd really doesn't define the extreme left very well at all. The real extreme left, like the black panther types and the revolutionary leftist street gang types ect are mostly in prison and therefore don't have much oppinion being heard in public discourse at all. Many of them also don't speak mainstream dialects of English and are therefore rather hard for us white folks to understand.
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- pj_mukh 10y agoThis. so much this. Forget leaks, just stuff he's said in public is alarming enough including the fact that he takes issue with the headline OP posted here [1]. The book he keeps quoting is 'Camp of Saints' and you described it in the nicest way possible[2]. This man sets the agenda for the president :|. As an immigrant in America, if Bannon and Miller were removed, Trumps policies are not that much different from any other boilerplate republican. [1] http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/16/13653490/steve-bannon-trump-presidency-chief-strategist-breitbart-tech-visa http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/16/13653490/steve-bannon-tru... [2] http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/03/06/steve_bannon_and_the_camp_of_the_saints.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/03/06/steve_bann...
- ChemicalWarfare 10y ago>> if Bannon and Miller were removed, Trumps policies are not that much different from any other boilerplate republican. First and foremost thing that is apparent about Trump's administration is the anti-globalist "america first" approach. It's not just the rhetoric either - he's acting on his promises of bringing american jobs back, addressing the trade deficit disparities, cutting down on the debt (US debt is down by almost 70 billion in the last 2 months) and so on. This sets him apart not only from the Dems but also from the mainstream and rhino GOP which is why they publicly denounce him.
- the_absurdist 10y agoOh the conspiracy!
- cromwellian 10y agoIt's not a conspiracy when we have this: http://www.npr.org/2017/02/07/513957928/republican-lawmakers-propose-new-law-to-reduce-legal-immigration http://www.npr.org/2017/02/07/513957928/republican-lawmakers...
- the_absurdist 10y agoOh the conspiracy!
- muninn_ 10y agoWhat the book was actually about was the worry that the France was losing its national identity, the framework upon which it was built was Christianity. They want to preserve that identity. I don't think it's about skin color, but about shared cultural values that they found to be appealing and necessary. As it happens, white people were those people. You could easily reverse those roles with any other skin color. This is a type of reaction that people have when faced with what they perceive to be a quick cultural change. Things to them were goo as they were, so changes present a threat to that stability. It's human nature.
- cromwellian 10y agoYes, tribalism is human nature, and we have done very many ugly things to one another because of it. Much of modern advancement in civil liberties and human rights have come about because of the recognition that human nature is flawed and we need to act to fight our worse instincts. I don't think we should sweep racism and xenophobia under the rug with the argument that "boys will be boys"
- muninn_ 10y agoWhat is racist about not wanting things to change? This is a totally separate issue from racism. Calling it "boys will be boys" or "girls will be girls" is a gross oversimplification.
- cromwellian 10y agoWhen white people didn't want black people to use their water fountains, it was an existing status quo they didn't want to see changed. You can justify anything by explaining away people'a xenophobia or bigotry by saying they didn't want change. We just went through the same argument with gay marriage with people alleging great harm and the need to discriminate against gay people, causing greater harm to them. I find great irony that people on HN who probably subscribe to ideas of dynamism and creative destruction and disruption as the life blood of innovation are defending cultural conservatism.
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- ryandrake 10y agoNot to mention the efforts being made to stop legal immigration based on asylum seeking [1]. The whole "we're only against ILLEGAL immigration" cry is phony and does not square with the actual actions and opinions of policy-makers and enforcers. 1: http://www.npr.org/2017/03/13/519662321/in-their-search-for-asylum-central-americans-find-the-u-s-is-closing-its-doors http://www.npr.org/2017/03/13/519662321/in-their-search-for-...
- masondixon 10y ago> Than why so many leaked memos show that Bannon and Miller want to reduce family Visas for those already legally here? From http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/1/14773298/merit-based-immigration http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/1/14773298/mer...: "Reforming the immigration system to be more “merit-based” is predicated on the idea that some of these slots are going to the wrong immigrants — immigrants who don’t have as much to give the US as the US has to give them. Proponents point to Australia and Canada — places that don’t have the American tradition of family-based migration, and that deliberately select for immigrants who are likely to contribute economically and assimilate culturally from the moment they arrive. In these countries, having a family member who’s already a citizen doesn’t guarantee you a spot as an immigrant yourself — having an advanced degree, being fluent in the language, and being able to support yourself (or have a job waiting for you when you arrive) matter as much or more." Yes, Australia and Canada. > Why is Bannon and Miller's favorite novel a racist French book about Europe becoming less white? I could not find the quote from Bannon or Miller saying that "Camp of the Saints is my favourite novel"? Where can I find this? > Why when Bannon was interviewed on radio he said he wanted to bring the numbers on legal immigration way down? See http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/2/14472404/steve-bannon-legal-immigration-problem http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/2/14472404/ste... He is talking about H1-B visa abuse, just as the OP says. "They get into graduate schools, they can’t get engineering degrees, they can’t get into graduate schools because there are all these foreign students, when they come out, they can’t get a job." NOTE: "Foreign students". You do realise that by addressing this problem, he is helping all American citizens - who are all different ethnicities. > You're fooling yourself if you think this is just about undocumented Mexicans, Muslims, or H1-B abuse. There's way too much circumstantial rhetoric that's been said that indicates this is something more and we invite peril if we don't harshly Critique it. You, my friend, are reading fake news.