7 ms·

As much as I like HN, I'm not a big fan of the secrecy around moderator interventions - what gets censored, what posts get re-titled, etc. I can understand the

As much as I like HN, I'm not a big fan of the secrecy around moderator interventions - what gets censored, what posts get re-titled, etc. I can understand they might want to keep the ranking algorithm and anti-spam techniques secret, but stuff that are manually censored by a moderator should be indicated as such, maybe by some automatic message like "This post was removed due to [reason]". Some websites manage to fight spam while remaining reasonably transparent (eg. StackExchange, where pretty much everything is documented - flags, closing reasons, edits, etc.).

DanBC 10y ago
> I'm not a big fan of the secrecy around moderator interventions - what gets censored, what posts get re-titled, etc. This feels pretty transparent: https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=dang https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=dang https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=sctb https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=sctb
- Mithaldu 10y ago
  The problem with that is that they have various tools like adjusting things off the frontpage or banning comment threads to the bottom of the list; but the UI itself does not provide information on those. If the mods do any of these things but don't also leave a human comment on them, then it's unlikely people will notice.
  - brudgers 10y ago
    A user can see those things by turning on "Show Dead" in their profile.
    - Mithaldu 10y ago
      I have show dead on since a long time. The things i mentioned have no UI to note them. Show dead only makes, well, "dead" posts render their text.
      - brudgers 10y ago
        There's also the |contact| link to ask the moderators directly about anything that looks nefarious.
        ethbro 10y ago
        I think the perspective some people are taking here is that if it's invisible in the UI, then how would they ever know to ask? Short of running a continuous scraper and then compiling statistics as article did. I'd be all for tagging a generic "Downvoted by moderation" onto any article this happened to. The poster will probably still be annoyed, but I imagine most would agree with moderation most of the time. And if they like, they can contact. What they're less likely to agree with is this happening invisibly. And if it's invisible, then how do we know whether we (as a community) agree with it or not? PS: Side note, strongly against "toggle a non-default option" as a solution. Filter bubbles are incompatible with democracy and true, diverse community.
        brudgers 10y ago
        I agree that running a continuous scraper and compiling statistics sounds like a hack.
  - pbhjpbhj 10y ago
    >the UI itself does not provide information on those // Which is down to the varying desires of the community and the administration. The admin/mods have at least in part a goal of promoting their commercial ends whilst the community in general are neutral wrt those same ends. If the mods upgrade YC companies visibly and downgrade competitors, for example, then the chances are that will cause problems between the admin and the community. Based on that I can't see YC ever agreeing to do their moderation in public. I think we have to remember that this is not a neutral forum but has an inbuilt bias, through moderation, towards the administrations benefits.
- lightedman 10y ago
  What's more transparent is their personal info, which I just so happen to have and I'm tempted to make public.
rimliu 10y ago
I've got my account (with 9+k point) banned. Which is, of course, annoying, but the most annoying thing was the comment left by moderator "we banned". How about "I banned"? Faceless corporate "we" does not look well. There was also a lie about warning which never happened, but hey, "not lying" is not in the guidelines, so… And while some of my comments might be harsh I sometimes wonder if overzealous moderation leads us to creation of some kind of Stepford here.
- icebraining 10y ago
  Why not indicate your previous account?
  - unethical_ban 10y ago
    My 1k account got banned before this account was created. I don't mention its name because I don't know if the moderators would ban me.
    - SFJulie 10y ago
      They would. I made some experiments. Mix of fear of cross voting and anti spam technique I guess.
  - pbhjpbhj 10y ago
    When you get banned I'm pretty sure you get banned. So that account/accounts is/are closed but the person is banned. Clearly it's not enforceable but indicating a new account of a banned person would surely have that account removed?
    - rimliu 10y ago
      Will see. I have no doubts that mods are doing that they sincerely think is the best, but I have my doubts if that's indeed the best.
    - dang 10y ago
      Not necessarily. If we see some sign that the user is turning over a new leaf, we're happy to give another chance. The purpose of banning isn't to cast anyone out, it's to preserve a place for civil, substantive discussion. I sometimes hear people defend uncivil comments by saying that other people shouldn't be so fragile. But it isn't individuals who are fragile—it's the community. Plenty of users have gone from being banned or penalized to being positive contributors on HN. Once someone understands why the rules and moderation are the way they are, things almost always go fine. It's not, for example, about "needing to sugarcoat everything", "avoiding uncomfortable truths", or any of that kind of explanation. It's about the extreme weakness of the social contract on the internet.
askmike 10y ago
I was under the impression HN start out as a more scoped / directed version of Reddit.
Peroni 10y ago
Any time I've reached out to dang (https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=dang https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=dang) via email, he's always been responsive and super helpful and pretty transparent. Moderating HN isn't an enviable task IMO.
- stefantalpalaru 10y ago
  I'm glad you had such a good time interacting with Ian Murdock's friend in need. He hellbanned me on a whim and I saw him hellbanning someone else just for daring to downvote him after being told to stop. Maybe you're a special snowflake ;-)
djsumdog 10y ago
I remember a few weeks back I was looking for a comment reply to my comment. The original post got flagged and the comment itself didn't appear in my comments block! I was really disappointed as the comment I was looking for wouldn't even show up in search.
- dang 10y ago
  The comment probably got enough flags to kill it, in which case it would show up as [flagged] [dead] if you turn 'showdead' to 'yes' in your profile.
giarc 10y ago
Not only that but moderators should be marked as such. I have no idea who are moderators other than /dang

DanBC 10y ago

> I'm not a big fan of the secrecy around moderator interventions - what gets censored, what posts get re-titled, etc. This feels pretty transparent: https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=dang https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=dang https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=sctb https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=sctb

Mithaldu 10y ago
The problem with that is that they have various tools like adjusting things off the frontpage or banning comment threads to the bottom of the list; but the UI itself does not provide information on those. If the mods do any of these things but don't also leave a human comment on them, then it's unlikely people will notice.
- brudgers 10y ago
  A user can see those things by turning on "Show Dead" in their profile.
  - Mithaldu 10y ago
    I have show dead on since a long time. The things i mentioned have no UI to note them. Show dead only makes, well, "dead" posts render their text.
    - brudgers 10y ago
      There's also the |contact| link to ask the moderators directly about anything that looks nefarious.
      - ethbro 10y ago
        I think the perspective some people are taking here is that if it's invisible in the UI, then how would they ever know to ask? Short of running a continuous scraper and then compiling statistics as article did. I'd be all for tagging a generic "Downvoted by moderation" onto any article this happened to. The poster will probably still be annoyed, but I imagine most would agree with moderation most of the time. And if they like, they can contact. What they're less likely to agree with is this happening invisibly. And if it's invisible, then how do we know whether we (as a community) agree with it or not? PS: Side note, strongly against "toggle a non-default option" as a solution. Filter bubbles are incompatible with democracy and true, diverse community.
        brudgers 10y ago
        I agree that running a continuous scraper and compiling statistics sounds like a hack.
- pbhjpbhj 10y ago
  >the UI itself does not provide information on those // Which is down to the varying desires of the community and the administration. The admin/mods have at least in part a goal of promoting their commercial ends whilst the community in general are neutral wrt those same ends. If the mods upgrade YC companies visibly and downgrade competitors, for example, then the chances are that will cause problems between the admin and the community. Based on that I can't see YC ever agreeing to do their moderation in public. I think we have to remember that this is not a neutral forum but has an inbuilt bias, through moderation, towards the administrations benefits.
lightedman 10y ago
What's more transparent is their personal info, which I just so happen to have and I'm tempted to make public.

rimliu 10y ago

I've got my account (with 9+k point) banned. Which is, of course, annoying, but the most annoying thing was the comment left by moderator "we banned". How about "I banned"? Faceless corporate "we" does not look well. There was also a lie about warning which never happened, but hey, "not lying" is not in the guidelines, so… And while some of my comments might be harsh I sometimes wonder if overzealous moderation leads us to creation of some kind of Stepford here.

icebraining 10y ago
Why not indicate your previous account?
- unethical_ban 10y ago
  My 1k account got banned before this account was created. I don't mention its name because I don't know if the moderators would ban me.
  - SFJulie 10y ago
    They would. I made some experiments. Mix of fear of cross voting and anti spam technique I guess.
- pbhjpbhj 10y ago
  When you get banned I'm pretty sure you get banned. So that account/accounts is/are closed but the person is banned. Clearly it's not enforceable but indicating a new account of a banned person would surely have that account removed?
  - rimliu 10y ago
    Will see. I have no doubts that mods are doing that they sincerely think is the best, but I have my doubts if that's indeed the best.
  - dang 10y ago
    Not necessarily. If we see some sign that the user is turning over a new leaf, we're happy to give another chance. The purpose of banning isn't to cast anyone out, it's to preserve a place for civil, substantive discussion. I sometimes hear people defend uncivil comments by saying that other people shouldn't be so fragile. But it isn't individuals who are fragile—it's the community. Plenty of users have gone from being banned or penalized to being positive contributors on HN. Once someone understands why the rules and moderation are the way they are, things almost always go fine. It's not, for example, about "needing to sugarcoat everything", "avoiding uncomfortable truths", or any of that kind of explanation. It's about the extreme weakness of the social contract on the internet.

askmike 10y ago

I was under the impression HN start out as a more scoped / directed version of Reddit.

Peroni 10y ago

Any time I've reached out to dang (https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=dang https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=dang) via email, he's always been responsive and super helpful and pretty transparent. Moderating HN isn't an enviable task IMO.

stefantalpalaru 10y ago
I'm glad you had such a good time interacting with Ian Murdock's friend in need. He hellbanned me on a whim and I saw him hellbanning someone else just for daring to downvote him after being told to stop. Maybe you're a special snowflake ;-)

djsumdog 10y ago

I remember a few weeks back I was looking for a comment reply to my comment. The original post got flagged and the comment itself didn't appear in my comments block! I was really disappointed as the comment I was looking for wouldn't even show up in search.

dang 10y ago
The comment probably got enough flags to kill it, in which case it would show up as [flagged] [dead] if you turn 'showdead' to 'yes' in your profile.

giarc 10y ago

Not only that but moderators should be marked as such. I have no idea who are moderators other than /dang