6 ms·

Inventors and the invention: The Rolling Fluid Turbine

68 points by chrisbennet 10y ago

bboreham 10y ago
Seems like a cool invention, but unfortunately the writing or editing has been done by someone with no technical knowledge. > a unique hydrodynamic principle, the rolling fluid principle vortex dynamic what? > which can create a large amount of energy The first law of thermodynamics may want to hear about that. > an output of up to 10 kWh per day so ... 417W. > This is enough power to meet the requirements of 5 European families [1] gives German usage for one household per day as 9.6kWh [1] http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/average-household-electricity-consumption http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/average-household-electricity...
- pjc50 10y ago
  I think it's been translated, too.
- ChuckMcM 10y ago
  Fortunately the laws of Thermodynamics are safe, it it converting kinetic energy into electricity. It doesn't appear to be more efficient that existing hydropower solutions but it does seem to be applicable to a wider set of flowing water conditions (which is why, I'm sure, they keep talking about single family homes).
- tzs 10y ago
  It's just slightly sloppy editing somewhere. It should be "rolling fluid principle, a vortex dynamic" or something like that. "Rolling fluid principle" is the name Sedláček gave the particular mechanism at play here, and it falls under vortex dynamics.
- Fremsley 10y ago
  Hands up, I know zip about thermodynamic/fluid dynamics etc. My background is in mechanical engineering and editing. That article doesn't pretend to be a technical masterpiece, but instead is 'WEB' written, and serves solely as an introduction to a relatively unknown design and concept. Which, consequently, is available to buy should anyone wish to pull it to bits and have a look at the internals, which is something I wouldn't mind doing!
basicplus2 10y ago
This effect is well known to old school instrument fitters.. hense the Variable Area Flow Meters are more.commonly known as rotameters , the maths however is buried deep in such devices such as Coriolis Mass Flow Meters and also has much to do with the friction at the counter rotating boundry layers of the fluid between where the fluid is trying to stay laminer at both the vessel wall and the rotating item https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_flow_meter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_flow_meter
- yetihehe 10y ago
  Many effects are already known to different people, but no one thought to use them for some novel application.
  - basicplus2 10y ago
    "Vortex shedding may also occur as a more stable single vortex spiral that has a rotation direction that can be harnessed by a specially designed micro wind turbine energy harvester" https://emps.exeter.ac.uk/engineering/research/structures-dynamics/energyharvesting/research/wearable/vortexsheddingenergyharvesting/ https://emps.exeter.ac.uk/engineering/research/structures-dy...
najajomo 10y ago
What's the torque exerted on the rotor and does it scale and what head of water does it take to produce a useful amount of power?
Gravityloss 10y ago
Talk about burying the lede. No good pictures of the invention, it's only shown around 6 minutes in to the 8 minute video.
- Fremsley 10y ago
  Visit the website embedded in the article...
semi-extrinsic 10y ago
From TFA: > Typically hydroelectric power requires a huge head of water to function, relying on blades submerged in high-velocity water streams. From Wikipedia's page on "Water turbines": > Turbine selection is based on the available water head (...). Kaplan turbines with adjustable blade pitch are well-adapted to wide ranges of head conditions (...), since their peak efficiency can be achieved over a wide range of flow conditions. They even provide this handy chart for turbine selection: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Water_Turbine_Chart.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Water_Tu... illustrating that Kaplan turbines work well down to 1 m head. This turbine is an interesting concept for illustrating fluid mechanics, but I think trying to spin it as a good alternative for a new hydroelectric turbine type is ultimately misleading. Just from the basic function of the turbine I sincerely doubt it can compete with a more classic type like a Kaplan or cross-flow turbine (e.g. the viscous losses and the un-utilised pressure in the outflow both look high).
- reneherse 10y ago
  >This turbine is an interesting concept for illustrating fluid mechanics, but I think trying to spin it as a good alternative for a new hydroelectric turbine type is ultimately misleading. Well, if you watch TFV they show a working prototype at around the 6min mark. So it's clearly a concept worth investigating further for use as a power source. Incidentally, your comment is the type of "middlebrow dismissal" that plagues this site. You picked one small explanatory point from a relatively poorly written article, disputed it with a source from Wikipedia, and concluded by dismissing the subject of the article, an engineer's highly promising work. [Edited]
  - kbenson 10y ago
    > Piss off with your "middlebrow dismissal". And that's where you went from being part of the solution to being part of the problem.
    - reneherse 10y ago
      You're right; thank you. On reflection I edited my response for tone. (I get fired up the way people's good work sometimes gets treated.)
GregBuchholz 10y ago
Here's another different take on small-scale hydrokinetic power generation that I found interesting: http://leadingedge.engin.brown.edu/wordpress/ http://leadingedge.engin.brown.edu/wordpress/ ...no turbines to get clogged/wrapped with debris, and potentially better for aquatic life. If nothing else, it looks pretty cool in action.
researcher11 10y ago
I think the disruptive aspect is not the efficiency but in how cheap it is (or could be - I'm assuming it will be). It looks like something I could fabricate in my workshop. The ability to work with low head and with dirty water means installation and maintenance would be way cheaper as well. People who DIY hyrdo power often complain about the constant cleaning and maintenance required. This thing looks like it could easily swallow small sticks and rocks with little to no damage The plug thingy looks like it would be cheap to replace if it was ever damaged. There are no blades to break or nozzle to clog. The rotation appears pretty slow which I presume would lower the gear reduction needed and make that aspect cheaper as well. It sounded pretty quiet as well so you could build it closer to your house. DIY hyrdo is often really noisy. There is a crazy amount of hydro potential near where I live but they have banned dams. Corrupt construction companies were trying to extract money out of the area without giving any of it to the locals so the locals banned them for 'ecology' reasons. Something like this would enable locals to install their own hyrdo generators on the year round streams that run through their properties.
LightskinKanye 10y ago
I've consulted for a prominent SV VC looking at small scale hydro-kinetic energy before. Two major hurdles: 1. Section 404 of the EPA's Clean Water Act (aimed at normal dams and protecting fisheries) still applies to smaller scale hydro-kinetic turbines. 2. We determined the potential market wasn't sufficient after looking at detailed satellite imagery of the US and Canada river networks. It was surprisingly small compared to the potential of solar and wind. To really solve our energy problem we need to start getting serious about nuclear funding. Including scholarships for master's and PhDs. It is a great solution if you need off-grid power though.
contingencies 10y ago
If you ever get the chance to visit Prague, don't mess the National Technical Museum. http://www.ntm.cz/en http://www.ntm.cz/en https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Technical_Museum_(Prague) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Technical_Museum_(Pra...

68 points by chrisbennet 10y ago

Seems like a cool invention, but unfortunately the writing or editing has been done by someone with no technical knowledge. > a unique hydrodynamic principle, the rolling fluid principle vortex dynamic what? > which can create a large amount of energy The first law of thermodynamics may want to hear about that. > an output of up to 10 kWh per day so ... 417W. > This is enough power to meet the requirements of 5 European families [1] gives German usage for one household per day as 9.6kWh [1] http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/average-household-electricity-consumption http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/average-household-electricity...

pjc50 10y ago
I think it's been translated, too.
ChuckMcM 10y ago
Fortunately the laws of Thermodynamics are safe, it it converting kinetic energy into electricity. It doesn't appear to be more efficient that existing hydropower solutions but it does seem to be applicable to a wider set of flowing water conditions (which is why, I'm sure, they keep talking about single family homes).
tzs 10y ago
It's just slightly sloppy editing somewhere. It should be "rolling fluid principle, a vortex dynamic" or something like that. "Rolling fluid principle" is the name Sedláček gave the particular mechanism at play here, and it falls under vortex dynamics.
Fremsley 10y ago
Hands up, I know zip about thermodynamic/fluid dynamics etc. My background is in mechanical engineering and editing. That article doesn't pretend to be a technical masterpiece, but instead is 'WEB' written, and serves solely as an introduction to a relatively unknown design and concept. Which, consequently, is available to buy should anyone wish to pull it to bits and have a look at the internals, which is something I wouldn't mind doing!

basicplus2 10y ago

This effect is well known to old school instrument fitters.. hense the Variable Area Flow Meters are more.commonly known as rotameters , the maths however is buried deep in such devices such as Coriolis Mass Flow Meters and also has much to do with the friction at the counter rotating boundry layers of the fluid between where the fluid is trying to stay laminer at both the vessel wall and the rotating item https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_flow_meter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_flow_meter

yetihehe 10y ago
Many effects are already known to different people, but no one thought to use them for some novel application.
- basicplus2 10y ago
  "Vortex shedding may also occur as a more stable single vortex spiral that has a rotation direction that can be harnessed by a specially designed micro wind turbine energy harvester" https://emps.exeter.ac.uk/engineering/research/structures-dynamics/energyharvesting/research/wearable/vortexsheddingenergyharvesting/ https://emps.exeter.ac.uk/engineering/research/structures-dy...

najajomo 10y ago

What's the torque exerted on the rotor and does it scale and what head of water does it take to produce a useful amount of power?

Gravityloss 10y ago

Talk about burying the lede. No good pictures of the invention, it's only shown around 6 minutes in to the 8 minute video.

Fremsley 10y ago
Visit the website embedded in the article...

semi-extrinsic 10y ago

From TFA: > Typically hydroelectric power requires a huge head of water to function, relying on blades submerged in high-velocity water streams. From Wikipedia's page on "Water turbines": > Turbine selection is based on the available water head (...). Kaplan turbines with adjustable blade pitch are well-adapted to wide ranges of head conditions (...), since their peak efficiency can be achieved over a wide range of flow conditions. They even provide this handy chart for turbine selection: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Water_Turbine_Chart.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Water_Tu... illustrating that Kaplan turbines work well down to 1 m head. This turbine is an interesting concept for illustrating fluid mechanics, but I think trying to spin it as a good alternative for a new hydroelectric turbine type is ultimately misleading. Just from the basic function of the turbine I sincerely doubt it can compete with a more classic type like a Kaplan or cross-flow turbine (e.g. the viscous losses and the un-utilised pressure in the outflow both look high).

reneherse 10y ago
>This turbine is an interesting concept for illustrating fluid mechanics, but I think trying to spin it as a good alternative for a new hydroelectric turbine type is ultimately misleading. Well, if you watch TFV they show a working prototype at around the 6min mark. So it's clearly a concept worth investigating further for use as a power source. Incidentally, your comment is the type of "middlebrow dismissal" that plagues this site. You picked one small explanatory point from a relatively poorly written article, disputed it with a source from Wikipedia, and concluded by dismissing the subject of the article, an engineer's highly promising work. [Edited]
- kbenson 10y ago
  > Piss off with your "middlebrow dismissal". And that's where you went from being part of the solution to being part of the problem.
  - reneherse 10y ago
    You're right; thank you. On reflection I edited my response for tone. (I get fired up the way people's good work sometimes gets treated.)

GregBuchholz 10y ago

Here's another different take on small-scale hydrokinetic power generation that I found interesting: http://leadingedge.engin.brown.edu/wordpress/ http://leadingedge.engin.brown.edu/wordpress/ ...no turbines to get clogged/wrapped with debris, and potentially better for aquatic life. If nothing else, it looks pretty cool in action.

researcher11 10y ago

I think the disruptive aspect is not the efficiency but in how cheap it is (or could be - I'm assuming it will be). It looks like something I could fabricate in my workshop. The ability to work with low head and with dirty water means installation and maintenance would be way cheaper as well. People who DIY hyrdo power often complain about the constant cleaning and maintenance required. This thing looks like it could easily swallow small sticks and rocks with little to no damage The plug thingy looks like it would be cheap to replace if it was ever damaged. There are no blades to break or nozzle to clog. The rotation appears pretty slow which I presume would lower the gear reduction needed and make that aspect cheaper as well. It sounded pretty quiet as well so you could build it closer to your house. DIY hyrdo is often really noisy. There is a crazy amount of hydro potential near where I live but they have banned dams. Corrupt construction companies were trying to extract money out of the area without giving any of it to the locals so the locals banned them for 'ecology' reasons. Something like this would enable locals to install their own hyrdo generators on the year round streams that run through their properties.

LightskinKanye 10y ago

I've consulted for a prominent SV VC looking at small scale hydro-kinetic energy before. Two major hurdles: 1. Section 404 of the EPA's Clean Water Act (aimed at normal dams and protecting fisheries) still applies to smaller scale hydro-kinetic turbines. 2. We determined the potential market wasn't sufficient after looking at detailed satellite imagery of the US and Canada river networks. It was surprisingly small compared to the potential of solar and wind. To really solve our energy problem we need to start getting serious about nuclear funding. Including scholarships for master's and PhDs. It is a great solution if you need off-grid power though.

contingencies 10y ago

If you ever get the chance to visit Prague, don't mess the National Technical Museum. http://www.ntm.cz/en http://www.ntm.cz/en https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Technical_Museum_(Prague) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Technical_Museum_(Pra...