6 ms·

Serious question: Is it possible for society to criminalize rent seeking behaviors like this? It seems clear that there's no benefit to keeping the status quo t

Serious question: Is it possible for society to criminalize rent seeking behaviors like this? It seems clear that there's no benefit to keeping the status quo tax filing system except for the benefit of tax preparers. What's stopping the US from creating a law that says if a company attempts to lobby for something in bad faith (like the tax example), they will face sanction?

jessriedel 10y ago
The 1st amendment.
bluejekyll 10y ago
To get a law like that passed you'd need lobbyists stronger than the lobbyists representing that industry. I would say every lobbyist in DC would fight any such law as it would directly threaten their industry.
zitterbewegung 10y ago
Probably that your proposed rule is so vague that it would be impossible to be enforced .
- pmoriarty 10y ago
  That's rarely stopped US lawmakers, prosecutors, and judges before.
  - zitterbewegung 10y ago
    Sorry I was vague in my comment . You will have it on the books and the lawmakers can point to it when they get elected . Other than that the behavior that you want won't be prevented . At best you will have some long drawn out court case that will strike down the law .
dfabulich 10y ago
Not as long as bad policy is good politics. https://youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs https://youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs
ccvannorman 10y ago
Absolutely. What few people realize is that nations are competing with each other and this is a perfect example of how you can differentiate. However, your options may be limited at present, or you may have "roots" where you are. If I was founding a nation on the water with Peter Thiel, or in space with Elon Musk, you can bet I would advertise quite loudly that this (and for example pharmaceutical price gouging) would be criminalized. Today, well, put your votes into people who support it and/or be willing to relocate towards those politicians.
- didibus 10y ago
  I think that's a pipe dream. I once read that true freedom is the freedom to choose where to live, but our world is moving towards closing borders even more, and they were never really open. So I don't think nations compete on that front. Internally local people compete for the ruling opportunity, nations don't compete to attract citizens.
grovegames 10y ago
Proving bad faith for lobbying is impossible. TurboTax would argue that the simple filing would allow the government to stiff citizens by not taking full advantage of their potential tax credits, etc... Proving bad faith would require fraud, and I don't see how there is any indication here of that.
sbuttgereit 10y ago
Fair question and I dislike this sort of thing as much as anyone. And of course such an opening comment means there is a "but..." coming. What you're asking for is to criminalize certain petitions of government. So how do you choose whom to discriminate against such that they cannot petition their government in regards to law making without, at the same time, simply institutionalizing the viewpoints of the other side? Maybe we shutdown corporate lobbying, but then do you need to shut down other associations of individuals (consumer groups, unions, etc) from lobbying government in order to keep equity, or tacitly assume those other organizations must be right anyway? There are many ways to play that game and the only options are those that simply favor one interest group over another... sure, the winning side probably won't complain about undue influence or insensitivity to the concerns of the losing side... but when has it ever been that way? If you want a real solution to problem you're talking about without explicitly shutting down the give and take of ideas (good and bad) that are required to make the democratic aspects of our system function, your only solution is to limit what power the government has to influence preferential outcomes for anyone that would lobby it and increase the rights of individuals to act on their own accord or in trade with other, similarly free individuals. Without the power to deeply intrude into the economic lives of people (regardless if employee or shareholder), lobbying government for favors simply wouldn't be a good investment. Indeed, it is ironic that you ask to outlaw this sort of thing... because any time you expand the government power to regulate or influence outcomes you make the lobbying dollars just that much more worthwhile. Going further, you simply are considering a totalitarian systematization of your ideas: something worse than the rent seeking you rightfully decry. (edited for slightly better use of language)
- wpietri 10y ago
  I think "only solution" is far too strong. It seems to me there are two sorts of lobbying: positive sum informing of legislators, and zero/negative sum jockeying for societal advantage. We want to keep the former and minimize the latter. So my proposal is: 1. Make all paid lobbying illegal. Make corporate donations to candidates, campaigns, and parties illegal. Eliminate revolving doors. Strongly limit individual donations. (And, while we're at it, maybe add federal funding of elections with spending caps.) 2. Industry groups, consumer groups, and the like can exist and publish what they want on their websites, but may not have private contact with legislators, their staffs, etc. 3. Legislators can communicate with outside groups to request information, opinions, and the like, but all requests and responses must be published in a permanently maintained record. 4. We increase the budget for congressional staffing and for neutral research groups like the CBO, so legislators have the resources necessary to make good law without having to lean on paid lobbyists. I'm sure there are plenty of other proposals that could be made as well. The flow of ideas isn't the problem. It's the flow of money and power.
crusso 10y ago
We could also pass a law that said that lawmakers should be prosecuted for corruption for creating laws that supported rent-seeking behaviors. Businesses just do what they're expected to do, protect their business opportunities - but why don't we hold our representatives to higher standards?
harryh 10y ago
The first amendment.
sitkack 10y ago
We should limit all speech by corporations when it comes to their influence in the government.
yuhong 10y ago
The fun thing is that the way our current economy works only encourages this kind of thing, with for example retirement funds depending on stock prices to go up. My favorite is Medicare and drug prices, with Medicare drugs often funded by budget deficits that increase the money supply.

jessriedel 10y ago

The 1st amendment.

bluejekyll 10y ago

To get a law like that passed you'd need lobbyists stronger than the lobbyists representing that industry. I would say every lobbyist in DC would fight any such law as it would directly threaten their industry.

zitterbewegung 10y ago

Probably that your proposed rule is so vague that it would be impossible to be enforced .

pmoriarty 10y ago
That's rarely stopped US lawmakers, prosecutors, and judges before.
- zitterbewegung 10y ago
  Sorry I was vague in my comment . You will have it on the books and the lawmakers can point to it when they get elected . Other than that the behavior that you want won't be prevented . At best you will have some long drawn out court case that will strike down the law .

dfabulich 10y ago

Not as long as bad policy is good politics. https://youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs https://youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

ccvannorman 10y ago

Absolutely. What few people realize is that nations are competing with each other and this is a perfect example of how you can differentiate. However, your options may be limited at present, or you may have "roots" where you are. If I was founding a nation on the water with Peter Thiel, or in space with Elon Musk, you can bet I would advertise quite loudly that this (and for example pharmaceutical price gouging) would be criminalized. Today, well, put your votes into people who support it and/or be willing to relocate towards those politicians.

didibus 10y ago
I think that's a pipe dream. I once read that true freedom is the freedom to choose where to live, but our world is moving towards closing borders even more, and they were never really open. So I don't think nations compete on that front. Internally local people compete for the ruling opportunity, nations don't compete to attract citizens.

grovegames 10y ago

Proving bad faith for lobbying is impossible. TurboTax would argue that the simple filing would allow the government to stiff citizens by not taking full advantage of their potential tax credits, etc... Proving bad faith would require fraud, and I don't see how there is any indication here of that.

sbuttgereit 10y ago

Fair question and I dislike this sort of thing as much as anyone. And of course such an opening comment means there is a "but..." coming. What you're asking for is to criminalize certain petitions of government. So how do you choose whom to discriminate against such that they cannot petition their government in regards to law making without, at the same time, simply institutionalizing the viewpoints of the other side? Maybe we shutdown corporate lobbying, but then do you need to shut down other associations of individuals (consumer groups, unions, etc) from lobbying government in order to keep equity, or tacitly assume those other organizations must be right anyway? There are many ways to play that game and the only options are those that simply favor one interest group over another... sure, the winning side probably won't complain about undue influence or insensitivity to the concerns of the losing side... but when has it ever been that way? If you want a real solution to problem you're talking about without explicitly shutting down the give and take of ideas (good and bad) that are required to make the democratic aspects of our system function, your only solution is to limit what power the government has to influence preferential outcomes for anyone that would lobby it and increase the rights of individuals to act on their own accord or in trade with other, similarly free individuals. Without the power to deeply intrude into the economic lives of people (regardless if employee or shareholder), lobbying government for favors simply wouldn't be a good investment. Indeed, it is ironic that you ask to outlaw this sort of thing... because any time you expand the government power to regulate or influence outcomes you make the lobbying dollars just that much more worthwhile. Going further, you simply are considering a totalitarian systematization of your ideas: something worse than the rent seeking you rightfully decry. (edited for slightly better use of language)

wpietri 10y ago
I think "only solution" is far too strong. It seems to me there are two sorts of lobbying: positive sum informing of legislators, and zero/negative sum jockeying for societal advantage. We want to keep the former and minimize the latter. So my proposal is: 1. Make all paid lobbying illegal. Make corporate donations to candidates, campaigns, and parties illegal. Eliminate revolving doors. Strongly limit individual donations. (And, while we're at it, maybe add federal funding of elections with spending caps.) 2. Industry groups, consumer groups, and the like can exist and publish what they want on their websites, but may not have private contact with legislators, their staffs, etc. 3. Legislators can communicate with outside groups to request information, opinions, and the like, but all requests and responses must be published in a permanently maintained record. 4. We increase the budget for congressional staffing and for neutral research groups like the CBO, so legislators have the resources necessary to make good law without having to lean on paid lobbyists. I'm sure there are plenty of other proposals that could be made as well. The flow of ideas isn't the problem. It's the flow of money and power.

crusso 10y ago

We could also pass a law that said that lawmakers should be prosecuted for corruption for creating laws that supported rent-seeking behaviors. Businesses just do what they're expected to do, protect their business opportunities - but why don't we hold our representatives to higher standards?

harryh 10y ago

The first amendment.

sitkack 10y ago

We should limit all speech by corporations when it comes to their influence in the government.

yuhong 10y ago

The fun thing is that the way our current economy works only encourages this kind of thing, with for example retirement funds depending on stock prices to go up. My favorite is Medicare and drug prices, with Medicare drugs often funded by budget deficits that increase the money supply.