5 ms·

From the article: "The box mimics the day-night patterns of Mars, as well as its temperature, air pressure and atmospheric composition." Wait, really? They're

From the article: "The box mimics the day-night patterns of Mars, as well as its temperature, air pressure and atmospheric composition." Wait, really? They're growing plants in what's practically a vacuum and at subzero temperatures? Really? That seems... stupendously unlikely... to me. Not that I wouldn't love to be wrong, mind. Anyone have a link to actual data? Everything linked to is just press fluff. Update: Actual articles on growing plants at very low pressure: https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2004/25feb_greenhouses/ https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2004/2... --- at 1/10 of an atmosphere, plants' metabolic balance gets screwed up and they go into drought response and die, no matter how much water is actually available. http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/ast.2009.0362 http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/ast.2009.0362 --- but lichen's probably fine.

amelius 10y ago
Perhaps they bred the plants to have better low-pressure resistance?
stormbrew 10y ago
It sounds from the original press release [1] like they significantly enrich the soil to make up for that. [1] http://cipotato.org/press-room/blog/indicators-show-potatoes-can-grow-mars/ http://cipotato.org/press-room/blog/indicators-show-potatoes...
stcredzero 10y ago
On the Cody's Lab YouTube channel, Cody did expose potato plants to Martian atmospheric pressure for short periods of time. Apparently, potato plants can survive a decompression event, so long as you get them back to an Earthlike environment promptly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8VPvBr4ppU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8VPvBr4ppU I doubt they could survive extended exposure, though.
- sandworm101 10y ago
  And 'survive' is something far different than 'grow'.
  - sigmaprimus 10y ago
    Even saying they are growing doest mEan they will work, I've peeled many potatoes and they grow eyes if left long enough...in the dark too!
- ColanR 10y ago
  So does this mean the environment was only partially simulated? It sounds like we're assuming Martian potatoes will be grown in pressurized environments.
  - stcredzero 10y ago
    Given an inexpensive transparent material with very high tensile strength and resistance to weathering in the Martian environment, I could see a passive pressurization/thermal regulation scheme for greenhouses on the surface of Mars that relies only on, say, a heat source, some valves, and some consumable gasses. I could imagine such schemes using mainly water as an input. That said, such a material would be asking for a lot. Then, there's also the UV and other radiation to consider.
    - jsolson 10y ago
      Just replace/recycle it regularly.
  - malandrew 10y ago
    I reckon there is value in only partially simulating the environment and grow lots of potatoes at scale. Take those potatoes that succeed and breed them and repeat. With every iteration, change the environmental conditions to better simulate Mars. Over successive generations, I reckon we can get to potatoes (and other plants) that fair well. The big question is how you optimize this process to assist evolution in moving faster.
    - adrianN 10y ago
      It will need many generations before you have a plant that can live in a natural martian environment. I don't think you'll be able to get much nutrition out of it anymore.
      - stcredzero 10y ago
        The less demanding the crops are, in terms of sheltering them from Mars, the cheaper they will be to grow. So it's useful, even if you don't get them to a natural Martian environment. Lowering the temperature and pressure they can grow at would still be a win.
clinton 10y ago
I ran a similar experiment at home, albeit with a fern rather than potatoes and without simulating martian light. My fern started to perish (and it was a well established plant). The biggest problem I'm facing at the moment is that Mars is extremely nitrogen deficient. https://reprage.com/post/marsarium-9 https://reprage.com/post/marsarium-9 https://www.reddit.com/r/Colonizemars/comments/5vi52v/inspired_by_rspacex_i_made_a_marsarium_to/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Colonizemars/comments/5vi52v/inspir...
- david-given 10y ago
  That's awesome. I want to do that. It'd be interesting to measure the gas composition inside the chamber --- although I suspect the bodging together a gas spectrometer is going to be a bit problematic. This all at at one atmosphere, though, isn't it? I see you have a vacuum pump, but that enclosure doesn't look like it'd be safe to evacuate. I'd like to try low pressures. Intuitively I'd expect hard-skinned plants like cactuses to cope better --- but intuition is frequently wrong. Another interesting thing to try would be to use one atmosphere of absolute pressure but have accurate partial pressures of carbon dioxide and nitrogen to simulate the Martian atmosphere...
  - clinton 10y ago
    Yeah one atmosphere, but with the same atmospheric mix as what is on Mars. I was trying to simulate compressing the Martian atmosphere into a pressurised and thermally insulated greenhouse. My enclosure is only good down to about 0.8 atmospheres, below that the big rubber seal around the door starts to leak. The vacuum pump is used when mixing the atmospheric composition. Figure the first martian plants would live in a pressurised, insulated greenhouse. There are some neat passively heated designs around. I think my next experiments will be with legumes trying to fix nitrogen and improve the soil. The way I see it, pressure, warmth and light are all problems for which we have existing solutions. The real question is can we get stuff to grow without importing tons of fertiliser?
- kaybe 10y ago
  Using a well established plant might be worse than using a young one. They grow into the situation they find and adapt. If your plant is used to standard house plant conditions it might be harder compared to one used to bad soil and little water. But probably you already took that into consideration?
make3 10y ago
I wonder if we could do artificial selection, breeding a couple generations in progressively lower atmosphere, and only keeping those that don't go haywire

amelius 10y ago

Perhaps they bred the plants to have better low-pressure resistance?

stormbrew 10y ago

It sounds from the original press release [1] like they significantly enrich the soil to make up for that. [1] http://cipotato.org/press-room/blog/indicators-show-potatoes-can-grow-mars/ http://cipotato.org/press-room/blog/indicators-show-potatoes...

stcredzero 10y ago

On the Cody's Lab YouTube channel, Cody did expose potato plants to Martian atmospheric pressure for short periods of time. Apparently, potato plants can survive a decompression event, so long as you get them back to an Earthlike environment promptly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8VPvBr4ppU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8VPvBr4ppU I doubt they could survive extended exposure, though.

sandworm101 10y ago
And 'survive' is something far different than 'grow'.
- sigmaprimus 10y ago
  Even saying they are growing doest mEan they will work, I've peeled many potatoes and they grow eyes if left long enough...in the dark too!
ColanR 10y ago
So does this mean the environment was only partially simulated? It sounds like we're assuming Martian potatoes will be grown in pressurized environments.
- stcredzero 10y ago
  Given an inexpensive transparent material with very high tensile strength and resistance to weathering in the Martian environment, I could see a passive pressurization/thermal regulation scheme for greenhouses on the surface of Mars that relies only on, say, a heat source, some valves, and some consumable gasses. I could imagine such schemes using mainly water as an input. That said, such a material would be asking for a lot. Then, there's also the UV and other radiation to consider.
  - jsolson 10y ago
    Just replace/recycle it regularly.
- malandrew 10y ago
  I reckon there is value in only partially simulating the environment and grow lots of potatoes at scale. Take those potatoes that succeed and breed them and repeat. With every iteration, change the environmental conditions to better simulate Mars. Over successive generations, I reckon we can get to potatoes (and other plants) that fair well. The big question is how you optimize this process to assist evolution in moving faster.
  - adrianN 10y ago
    It will need many generations before you have a plant that can live in a natural martian environment. I don't think you'll be able to get much nutrition out of it anymore.
    - stcredzero 10y ago
      The less demanding the crops are, in terms of sheltering them from Mars, the cheaper they will be to grow. So it's useful, even if you don't get them to a natural Martian environment. Lowering the temperature and pressure they can grow at would still be a win.

clinton 10y ago

I ran a similar experiment at home, albeit with a fern rather than potatoes and without simulating martian light. My fern started to perish (and it was a well established plant). The biggest problem I'm facing at the moment is that Mars is extremely nitrogen deficient. https://reprage.com/post/marsarium-9 https://reprage.com/post/marsarium-9 https://www.reddit.com/r/Colonizemars/comments/5vi52v/inspired_by_rspacex_i_made_a_marsarium_to/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Colonizemars/comments/5vi52v/inspir...

david-given 10y ago
That's awesome. I want to do that. It'd be interesting to measure the gas composition inside the chamber --- although I suspect the bodging together a gas spectrometer is going to be a bit problematic. This all at at one atmosphere, though, isn't it? I see you have a vacuum pump, but that enclosure doesn't look like it'd be safe to evacuate. I'd like to try low pressures. Intuitively I'd expect hard-skinned plants like cactuses to cope better --- but intuition is frequently wrong. Another interesting thing to try would be to use one atmosphere of absolute pressure but have accurate partial pressures of carbon dioxide and nitrogen to simulate the Martian atmosphere...
- clinton 10y ago
  Yeah one atmosphere, but with the same atmospheric mix as what is on Mars. I was trying to simulate compressing the Martian atmosphere into a pressurised and thermally insulated greenhouse. My enclosure is only good down to about 0.8 atmospheres, below that the big rubber seal around the door starts to leak. The vacuum pump is used when mixing the atmospheric composition. Figure the first martian plants would live in a pressurised, insulated greenhouse. There are some neat passively heated designs around. I think my next experiments will be with legumes trying to fix nitrogen and improve the soil. The way I see it, pressure, warmth and light are all problems for which we have existing solutions. The real question is can we get stuff to grow without importing tons of fertiliser?
kaybe 10y ago
Using a well established plant might be worse than using a young one. They grow into the situation they find and adapt. If your plant is used to standard house plant conditions it might be harder compared to one used to bad soil and little water. But probably you already took that into consideration?

make3 10y ago

I wonder if we could do artificial selection, breeding a couple generations in progressively lower atmosphere, and only keeping those that don't go haywire