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Of course I don't blame anyone for being an economic migrant. It's a very natural thing to do: search for a better life. It's what I would do. Economic and tech

Of course I don't blame anyone for being an economic migrant. It's a very natural thing to do: search for a better life. It's what I would do. Economic and technical development has progressed in Africa and Asia so that larger numbers of people than ever are able to consider migration. We see that now on the Libyan coast. However, particularly for European governments, it's now becoming visible that there is a selection to be made: you can have completely open borders, or you can have a welfare state, but you can't have both.

stuaxo 10y ago
On the one hand we're told to better ourselves. On the other people are villanised for being economic migrants.
- jimmyk 10y ago
  What should happen when there is a conflict between Europeans "bettering themselves" and economic migrants "bettering themselves"? Would you like to see Europeans roll over and ignore their own economic interests? Or do you believe no such conflict is possible? Does bettering oneself mean the same thing for economic migrants as it does for Europeans, in your mind? I gather from your comment that it means "attaining greater material wealth" for economic migrants. What does it mean for Europeans? Does it mean sharing their material wealth with the less fortunate, at their expense and the expense of their progeny?
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    Property and wealth are significant issues, but surely not the only things, and possibly not the most significant things. Safety, security and national and ethnic identity are also important to people. If I live in a country and city where my ethnicity and language are the majority, do I want them to become a minority, and do I want to adapt to culture of newcomers?
taurath 10y ago
Absolutely true - if given the choice, most anyone would rather live in France than war torn Somalia. And given altruism doesn't work particularly well in unstable countries the current system is definitely in a bad state. Borders will have to be closed, as they marginally are now.
- usrusr 10y ago
  That, or we eventually get a dystopia/libertarian dreamworld where borders are replaced by walls around private properties, with a near infinite supply of bodies right at the gates, willing to do almost everything for scraps. Depressing future scenarios like this make me miss the 1980ies, when popularly feared terrible futures had clearly good solutions ("don't blow up the planet") instead of a choice between two evils.
  - olalonde 10y ago
    What is dystopian about having walls around property? It's been that way ever since houses were invented.
  - ycmbntrthrwaway 10y ago
    > with a near infinite supply of bodies right at the gates, willing to do almost everything for scraps It does not have to be like that, it is just what you believe.
deleted 10y ago
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stuaxo 10y ago

On the one hand we're told to better ourselves. On the other people are villanised for being economic migrants.

jimmyk 10y ago
What should happen when there is a conflict between Europeans "bettering themselves" and economic migrants "bettering themselves"? Would you like to see Europeans roll over and ignore their own economic interests? Or do you believe no such conflict is possible? Does bettering oneself mean the same thing for economic migrants as it does for Europeans, in your mind? I gather from your comment that it means "attaining greater material wealth" for economic migrants. What does it mean for Europeans? Does it mean sharing their material wealth with the less fortunate, at their expense and the expense of their progeny?
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Property and wealth are significant issues, but surely not the only things, and possibly not the most significant things. Safety, security and national and ethnic identity are also important to people. If I live in a country and city where my ethnicity and language are the majority, do I want them to become a minority, and do I want to adapt to culture of newcomers?

taurath 10y ago

Absolutely true - if given the choice, most anyone would rather live in France than war torn Somalia. And given altruism doesn't work particularly well in unstable countries the current system is definitely in a bad state. Borders will have to be closed, as they marginally are now.

usrusr 10y ago
That, or we eventually get a dystopia/libertarian dreamworld where borders are replaced by walls around private properties, with a near infinite supply of bodies right at the gates, willing to do almost everything for scraps. Depressing future scenarios like this make me miss the 1980ies, when popularly feared terrible futures had clearly good solutions ("don't blow up the planet") instead of a choice between two evils.
- olalonde 10y ago
  What is dystopian about having walls around property? It's been that way ever since houses were invented.
- ycmbntrthrwaway 10y ago
  > with a near infinite supply of bodies right at the gates, willing to do almost everything for scraps It does not have to be like that, it is just what you believe.

deleted 10y ago

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