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Not sure if this is actual "civic action". At least if this is deployed in Europe, it sounds to me more like a deliberate action to completely destroy what rema

Not sure if this is actual "civic action". At least if this is deployed in Europe, it sounds to me more like a deliberate action to completely destroy what remains of the asylum system, which is already struggling both technically and with its political and popular support, due to the large number of applicants who are economic migrants rather than actual refugees. It may be different with U.S. and Canada, though - things are a bit easier when asylum applicants are not coming over unguarded land borders. (FWIW, I've assisted an immigrant, an old woman, in composing her complaint to the national courts and ECHR. The system is rigged against honest applicants because of the overload caused by more or less frivolous cases. We lost, too, technically, but she was in too bad shape to be deported so eventually got permission to stay.)

taurath 10y ago
Capital flows completely freely between borders, but people can't. I don't really blame anyone for being economic migrants - they're just refugees of a different type.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Of course I don't blame anyone for being an economic migrant. It's a very natural thing to do: search for a better life. It's what I would do. Economic and technical development has progressed in Africa and Asia so that larger numbers of people than ever are able to consider migration. We see that now on the Libyan coast. However, particularly for European governments, it's now becoming visible that there is a selection to be made: you can have completely open borders, or you can have a welfare state, but you can't have both.
  - stuaxo 10y ago
    On the one hand we're told to better ourselves. On the other people are villanised for being economic migrants.
    - jimmyk 10y ago
      What should happen when there is a conflict between Europeans "bettering themselves" and economic migrants "bettering themselves"? Would you like to see Europeans roll over and ignore their own economic interests? Or do you believe no such conflict is possible? Does bettering oneself mean the same thing for economic migrants as it does for Europeans, in your mind? I gather from your comment that it means "attaining greater material wealth" for economic migrants. What does it mean for Europeans? Does it mean sharing their material wealth with the less fortunate, at their expense and the expense of their progeny?
      - ptaipale 10y ago
        Property and wealth are significant issues, but surely not the only things, and possibly not the most significant things. Safety, security and national and ethnic identity are also important to people. If I live in a country and city where my ethnicity and language are the majority, do I want them to become a minority, and do I want to adapt to culture of newcomers?
  - taurath 10y ago
    Absolutely true - if given the choice, most anyone would rather live in France than war torn Somalia. And given altruism doesn't work particularly well in unstable countries the current system is definitely in a bad state. Borders will have to be closed, as they marginally are now.
    - usrusr 10y ago
      That, or we eventually get a dystopia/libertarian dreamworld where borders are replaced by walls around private properties, with a near infinite supply of bodies right at the gates, willing to do almost everything for scraps. Depressing future scenarios like this make me miss the 1980ies, when popularly feared terrible futures had clearly good solutions ("don't blow up the planet") instead of a choice between two evils.
      - olalonde 10y ago
        What is dystopian about having walls around property? It's been that way ever since houses were invented.
      - ycmbntrthrwaway 10y ago
        > with a near infinite supply of bodies right at the gates, willing to do almost everything for scraps It does not have to be like that, it is just what you believe.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- jimmyk 10y ago
  You don't have to blame someone for wanting to do something in order to not let them do it.
- AtheistOfFail 10y ago
  Yeah, but capital has lobbyists.

taurath 10y ago

Capital flows completely freely between borders, but people can't. I don't really blame anyone for being economic migrants - they're just refugees of a different type.

ptaipale 10y ago
Of course I don't blame anyone for being an economic migrant. It's a very natural thing to do: search for a better life. It's what I would do. Economic and technical development has progressed in Africa and Asia so that larger numbers of people than ever are able to consider migration. We see that now on the Libyan coast. However, particularly for European governments, it's now becoming visible that there is a selection to be made: you can have completely open borders, or you can have a welfare state, but you can't have both.
- stuaxo 10y ago
  On the one hand we're told to better ourselves. On the other people are villanised for being economic migrants.
  - jimmyk 10y ago
    What should happen when there is a conflict between Europeans "bettering themselves" and economic migrants "bettering themselves"? Would you like to see Europeans roll over and ignore their own economic interests? Or do you believe no such conflict is possible? Does bettering oneself mean the same thing for economic migrants as it does for Europeans, in your mind? I gather from your comment that it means "attaining greater material wealth" for economic migrants. What does it mean for Europeans? Does it mean sharing their material wealth with the less fortunate, at their expense and the expense of their progeny?
    - ptaipale 10y ago
      Property and wealth are significant issues, but surely not the only things, and possibly not the most significant things. Safety, security and national and ethnic identity are also important to people. If I live in a country and city where my ethnicity and language are the majority, do I want them to become a minority, and do I want to adapt to culture of newcomers?
- taurath 10y ago
  Absolutely true - if given the choice, most anyone would rather live in France than war torn Somalia. And given altruism doesn't work particularly well in unstable countries the current system is definitely in a bad state. Borders will have to be closed, as they marginally are now.
  - usrusr 10y ago
    That, or we eventually get a dystopia/libertarian dreamworld where borders are replaced by walls around private properties, with a near infinite supply of bodies right at the gates, willing to do almost everything for scraps. Depressing future scenarios like this make me miss the 1980ies, when popularly feared terrible futures had clearly good solutions ("don't blow up the planet") instead of a choice between two evils.
    - olalonde 10y ago
      What is dystopian about having walls around property? It's been that way ever since houses were invented.
    - ycmbntrthrwaway 10y ago
      > with a near infinite supply of bodies right at the gates, willing to do almost everything for scraps It does not have to be like that, it is just what you believe.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
jimmyk 10y ago
You don't have to blame someone for wanting to do something in order to not let them do it.
AtheistOfFail 10y ago
Yeah, but capital has lobbyists.