6 ms·

I think a lot of people can sympathize, but as you said, it's kinda taboo to say you wish you didn't have kids! I think you get the same feeling, a loss of free

by meesles 10y ago

I think a lot of people can sympathize, but as you said, it's kinda taboo to say you wish you didn't have kids! I think you get the same feeling, a loss of freedoms, from any significant evolution in life. Leaving college: "I wish I could still go out drinking every other day and perform the best in my peer-circle" Getting to a more serious romantic stage in your relationship: "I wish I could still play video games all weekend and not have to think about another person's feelings" And in my case, getting a puppy: "I wish I could leave the house for more than a day without having to worry about the living being I'm responsible for" And then having kids, and then getting old enough that you can't be as active as you want, and then just being an actual grandpa. I think it's just important to put things in context and look at the sum of the joys in your life. I was pretty stoked in college because I could do whatever I wanted, but I also couldn't afford nice vacations, casual plane trips to see friends, quality (expensive) food, etc.

shiven 10y ago
Nailed it. Perspective is what it's about. Your kids won't be the same in a few years, neither will you and nor the world. Take care of your health while doing all that you do and you'll get back to doing the other things that you miss doing or would love to do. It won't kill you, or your career, if you miss out on a shitty framework or two.
- pm90 10y ago
  > It won't kill you, or your career, if you miss out on a shitty framework or two. How about: if you miss on most weekends, music festivals, backpacking through different countries, working whenever you want, getting a drink whenever you want....and that is only your personal freedoms. Add to that all the responsibilities that comes with parenting. I'm not saying its not a good idea to be a parent; simply that its not just "missing out on a framework". You miss out on a lot of things...and you should be aware of that before making that decision.
  - YZF 10y ago
    When my older daughter was 7 and my younger daughter was 3 months old we went on a 2.5 month camping trip to Australia. This is more than what me and many other people have done with no kids. We've certainly taken the kids to music festivals as well and have gone on short backpacking trips (not that we couldn't do long ones if we wanted). A lot of the limitations you're describing are self imposed. Life tends to have responsibilities whether you have kids or not. Having kids is a life changing experience for sure but you can definitely "skill up" and do a lot of other things after you've had kids. Not a problem.
    - pm90 10y ago
      > A lot of the limitations you're describing are self imposed. I'm sure there are some self imposed limitations, and I'm sure there are other avenues opened up by having children as well. I'm not saying there aren't. All I'm saying is that people should be aware of them before making that important decision. It shouldn't just be a natural progression i.e. college -> job -> marriage -> kids. > Life tends to have responsibilities whether you have kids or not. Its the specific responsibilities of child-rearing that I do not like. Also, let's please not gloss over the incredibly time consuming, financially draining task of raising children by saying that "life is the same either way". That is simply not true. I'm not making a judgement about which path is better, but lets agree on the facts. > Having kids is a life changing experience for sure but you can definitely "skill up" and do a lot of other things after you've had kids. Not a problem. Again, not denying this. In fact, having kids might make you want to be more ambitious so as to provide a better future for them, which might be more motivation. That still doesn't change the points I've made, in that it is a huge tradeoff in lifestyle and one must be clear about that.
      - gtaylor 10y ago
        > That still doesn't change the points I've made, in that it is a huge tradeoff in lifestyle and one must be clear about that. This is the case for many life decisions. I don't see how this is a helpful addition to the conversation. * Move to another state? There will be big life implications. * Change careers? Ditto. * Go to college? * Go _back_ to school? * Spend loads of free time hacking away instead of getting out of the house? * Travel a bunch, perhaps at the cost of rapid career advancement? * Take a huge pay cut to work on something you enjoy? All of these (and more) will limit you in various ways, but gift you with different experiences. The same is for kids. It sounds like you don't want kids. That's cool, I'm glad you know what you want. But no need to hype up this decision to have kids or not as scary or some kind of albatross. It's just another decision with pros and cons.
pm90 10y ago
> it's kinda taboo to say you wish you didn't have kids! I think you get the same feeling, a loss of freedoms, from any significant evolution in life. I think any society that has thrived has had some variation of this cultural trait. Its easy to see why: without lots of children the society would simply die out. This is a very nuanced point though. As a young, somewhat single developer, I'm incredibly grateful to work a job that I enjoy that pays great. Love the freedom to go on vacation anywhere, to afford nice restaurants and such. I can't see why I would give up all that freedom to "settle down" as my parents keep reminding me of. Although I've had many great relationships, at some point, its always: "I just want to not have to plan out every weekend together!". Perhaps I'm an outlier that just puts way too much emphasis on independence.
- magic_beans 10y ago
  You may not have met the right person yet. It doesn't feel so much like "settling down" as much as "co-captain in life's adventures."
  - pm90 10y ago
    Possible...I haven't stopped looking; that's an adventure in itself haha.
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  > > it's kinda taboo to say you wish you didn't have kids! > I think any society that has thrived has had some variation of this cultural trait. I think in a lot of societies, having kids doesn't quite restrict your options as much as modern American society - prior to this century, you'd likely still live surrounded by family and a community who could help you with a lot of the childcare. You could drop the kids off at granddad's on the way to work, and not spend a significant portion of your income on daycare; in-laws could come and stay with you for awhile to help you get some sleep during those first few months; if you needed to do something during a weekend that you couldn't bring a kid to, you could drop the kid off at the neighbors'.
  - 10y ago
mustacheemperor 10y ago
Simple fact is, having kids is gonna change your life, should you choose to have them. It seems like a lot of people in this thread are trying to hammer down a reality where this isn't a fact, but that won't change that every aspect of how your time is managed will revolve around a new focal point for 20 years or more. >And then having kids I take issue with the prevailing attitude that having kids should be a mandatory evolution in life. My partner and I are quite happy spending the better part of some weekends playing videogames, and we're especially happy never sharing a minute of either of our time with anyone's children, especially our own. So many people in this thread and in general will just regurgitate "but you can't imagine it!" and "your whole perspective changes!" but that's the point. We've concretely determined we do not want that shift in perspective, and I want child-rearing life to remain firmly outside the grasp of my imagination forever.
- webmaven 10y ago
  I get especially happy, but why especially your own?
  - mustacheemperor 10y ago
    Being around other people's children can be annoying if they're not well behaved, being around my own children would imply a 20 year sentence of that. I did not mean to imply I've left a trail of abandoned kids across my history :)
    - webmaven 10y ago
      Ah. So, it's the interminable aspect, rather than your particular kids being especially unbearable. Got it. Thank you for explaining.

by meesles 10y ago

shiven 10y ago

Nailed it. Perspective is what it's about. Your kids won't be the same in a few years, neither will you and nor the world. Take care of your health while doing all that you do and you'll get back to doing the other things that you miss doing or would love to do. It won't kill you, or your career, if you miss out on a shitty framework or two.

pm90 10y ago
> It won't kill you, or your career, if you miss out on a shitty framework or two. How about: if you miss on most weekends, music festivals, backpacking through different countries, working whenever you want, getting a drink whenever you want....and that is only your personal freedoms. Add to that all the responsibilities that comes with parenting. I'm not saying its not a good idea to be a parent; simply that its not just "missing out on a framework". You miss out on a lot of things...and you should be aware of that before making that decision.
- YZF 10y ago
  When my older daughter was 7 and my younger daughter was 3 months old we went on a 2.5 month camping trip to Australia. This is more than what me and many other people have done with no kids. We've certainly taken the kids to music festivals as well and have gone on short backpacking trips (not that we couldn't do long ones if we wanted). A lot of the limitations you're describing are self imposed. Life tends to have responsibilities whether you have kids or not. Having kids is a life changing experience for sure but you can definitely "skill up" and do a lot of other things after you've had kids. Not a problem.
  - pm90 10y ago
    > A lot of the limitations you're describing are self imposed. I'm sure there are some self imposed limitations, and I'm sure there are other avenues opened up by having children as well. I'm not saying there aren't. All I'm saying is that people should be aware of them before making that important decision. It shouldn't just be a natural progression i.e. college -> job -> marriage -> kids. > Life tends to have responsibilities whether you have kids or not. Its the specific responsibilities of child-rearing that I do not like. Also, let's please not gloss over the incredibly time consuming, financially draining task of raising children by saying that "life is the same either way". That is simply not true. I'm not making a judgement about which path is better, but lets agree on the facts. > Having kids is a life changing experience for sure but you can definitely "skill up" and do a lot of other things after you've had kids. Not a problem. Again, not denying this. In fact, having kids might make you want to be more ambitious so as to provide a better future for them, which might be more motivation. That still doesn't change the points I've made, in that it is a huge tradeoff in lifestyle and one must be clear about that.
    - gtaylor 10y ago
      > That still doesn't change the points I've made, in that it is a huge tradeoff in lifestyle and one must be clear about that. This is the case for many life decisions. I don't see how this is a helpful addition to the conversation. * Move to another state? There will be big life implications. * Change careers? Ditto. * Go to college? * Go _back_ to school? * Spend loads of free time hacking away instead of getting out of the house? * Travel a bunch, perhaps at the cost of rapid career advancement? * Take a huge pay cut to work on something you enjoy? All of these (and more) will limit you in various ways, but gift you with different experiences. The same is for kids. It sounds like you don't want kids. That's cool, I'm glad you know what you want. But no need to hype up this decision to have kids or not as scary or some kind of albatross. It's just another decision with pros and cons.

pm90 10y ago

> it's kinda taboo to say you wish you didn't have kids! I think you get the same feeling, a loss of freedoms, from any significant evolution in life. I think any society that has thrived has had some variation of this cultural trait. Its easy to see why: without lots of children the society would simply die out. This is a very nuanced point though. As a young, somewhat single developer, I'm incredibly grateful to work a job that I enjoy that pays great. Love the freedom to go on vacation anywhere, to afford nice restaurants and such. I can't see why I would give up all that freedom to "settle down" as my parents keep reminding me of. Although I've had many great relationships, at some point, its always: "I just want to not have to plan out every weekend together!". Perhaps I'm an outlier that just puts way too much emphasis on independence.

magic_beans 10y ago
You may not have met the right person yet. It doesn't feel so much like "settling down" as much as "co-captain in life's adventures."
- pm90 10y ago
  Possible...I haven't stopped looking; that's an adventure in itself haha.
pavel_lishin 10y ago
> > it's kinda taboo to say you wish you didn't have kids! > I think any society that has thrived has had some variation of this cultural trait. I think in a lot of societies, having kids doesn't quite restrict your options as much as modern American society - prior to this century, you'd likely still live surrounded by family and a community who could help you with a lot of the childcare. You could drop the kids off at granddad's on the way to work, and not spend a significant portion of your income on daycare; in-laws could come and stay with you for awhile to help you get some sleep during those first few months; if you needed to do something during a weekend that you couldn't bring a kid to, you could drop the kid off at the neighbors'.
- 10y ago

mustacheemperor 10y ago

Simple fact is, having kids is gonna change your life, should you choose to have them. It seems like a lot of people in this thread are trying to hammer down a reality where this isn't a fact, but that won't change that every aspect of how your time is managed will revolve around a new focal point for 20 years or more. >And then having kids I take issue with the prevailing attitude that having kids should be a mandatory evolution in life. My partner and I are quite happy spending the better part of some weekends playing videogames, and we're especially happy never sharing a minute of either of our time with anyone's children, especially our own. So many people in this thread and in general will just regurgitate "but you can't imagine it!" and "your whole perspective changes!" but that's the point. We've concretely determined we do not want that shift in perspective, and I want child-rearing life to remain firmly outside the grasp of my imagination forever.

webmaven 10y ago
I get especially happy, but why especially your own?
- mustacheemperor 10y ago
  Being around other people's children can be annoying if they're not well behaved, being around my own children would imply a 20 year sentence of that. I did not mean to imply I've left a trail of abandoned kids across my history :)
  - webmaven 10y ago
    Ah. So, it's the interminable aspect, rather than your particular kids being especially unbearable. Got it. Thank you for explaining.