4 ms·

I've had friends get fucked up by head shop and online Kratom. It's very far from benign.

oxide 10y ago
I've gone ahead and edited my comment, not because of your comment, but just because I felt like I wasn't making a clear point. Kratom is not even mentioned anymore, sorry. While kratom is habit forming and can "fuck you up" if you have no tolerance, the true value is for the person already addicted to opiates looking to get clean. If you want to keep drugs out of the hands of kids, make them all legal and watch the usage numbers fall. Banning a powdered leaf, that is quite self-regulating, albeit habit-forming, is a step backwards in the quest to put out the structure fire that the opiate crises has become.
- DanBC 10y ago
  > If you want to keep drugs out of the hands of kids, make them all legal and watch the usage numbers fall. Doesn't the UK experience with alcohol counter this? (I am strongly in favour of legalisation of all drugs).
  - oxide 10y ago
    Amphetamine will be abused by college students. Alcohol will be abused by highschool kids. It's a given. The allure of stuff like cocaine, with the "what else was I lied to about, what am I missing out on" mindset goes out the window when you stop lying and start letting people make their own choices.
    - alva 10y ago
      You can't stop all the drug abuse but the extent of use is not a given. Amphetamine use of UK students appears to be extremely rare compared to the US, its never really been a cultural thing here. I suspect it is due to very few amphetamine drugs being prescribed, especially to children. It seems to common to hear about people selling their legitimate ADHD/ADD prescriptions to friends in the US. "Speed Paste" is the only amphetamine properly in circulation and its use is mostly restricted to the hardcore "junkie" groups, very much frowned upon from the casual drug community. None of the above is a solution, just to note the degree to which groups will gravitate towards and use a drug is not a given. Culture and availability probably affect use massively.
      - oxide 10y ago
        I completely agree. My example wasn't exactly the best, but relatively applicable to the US nevertheless. You raise many good points about drug use being different geographically and culturally. It's very much about availability, local drug culture, etc. For example, the speed paste. As you said, in the UK and in other European countries amphetamine is usually amphetamine in paste form, not crystal methylamphetamine like we usually see here in the states. Culture and availability absolutely affects use massively, a point I didn't mean to gloss over, and one I'm glad you raised.
        alva 10y ago
        What a nice response :) I think identifying these differences between countries will bring governments a step closer to finding some sort of solution. Not exactly an easy one though when it comes to culture though. How do you break strong cultural associations? There seems to be a number of (bad)role models that glorify different drugs in sub-cultures. Opiate use is glamorised from what I can tell in southern HipHop, Cannabis promoted all over the shop, Xanax frequently referred to in Hollywood.
    - foldr 10y ago
      >Alcohol will be abused by highschool kids. It's a given But in the UK it's not even regarded as "abuse". It's perfectly normal for 15 year olds to drink alcohol with their friends. (And not against the law, if they are doing it in private.) There may be benefits to legalizing drugs, but the idea that it will reduce usage of them is a fantasy.
      - pjc50 10y ago
        It's in that strange area between normal and looked down on that depends on the class background of the observer. It is a problem, but a slowly declining one: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-31452735 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-31452735 And it seems that US drug legalisation has resulted in small decreases of use: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/colorado-s-teen-marijuana-usage-dips-after-legalization/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/colorado-s-teen-m... The only thing that's clear is that viewing drug and alcohol usage strictly as a crime problem rather than a health one doesn't work.
        foldr 10y ago
        Cannabis is effectively legal in the UK now, but there's no evidence of a decline in use as far as I know. Certainly not a precipitous one. I'm not sure what you mean about class background. There must be very few 15 year olds in the UK, from any class background, who haven't used alcohol. I wasn't really referring to binge drinking. My point was that the fact that it's easier for young people to legally drink alcohol in the UK than it is in the US seems to have an effect.
        pjc50 10y ago
        Ah right, I was referring to distinction between "problematic" and "non-problematic" use. People generally accept that you can have a "non-problematic" use of alcohol but not everyone accepts that for the other drugs. Although you'll still find newspaper editorials concerned about teenage drinking. And in the really regressive papers, concern about women drinking. While cannabis simple possession is very rarely prosecuted the police are still going after grow houses. I think it would have to be legitimised (properly legal) to see a decline due to losing the "rebel" factor.
    - distances 10y ago
      > Amphetamine will be abused by college students. I found this a very peculiar claim. Is amphetamine misuse in colleges a big thing in the US? Edit: never mind, I see this was already discussed.
      - oxide 10y ago
        Yeah, it's all over. Prescription stimulants get diverted, resold at a markup, etc. The demand is high and the supply is there. Low doses of oral methamphetamine arent entirely uncommon either. Meth is cheaper, more potent and more widely available.
  - disgruntledphd2 10y ago
    I don't think so, as the Economist believe that that event occurred in 2006 (http://www.economist.com/node/3536168 http://www.economist.com/node/3536168) and consumption fell from then until 2013 http://www.ias.org.uk/Alcohol-knowledge-centre/Consumption/Factsheets/Total-consumption-in-the-UK.aspx http://www.ias.org.uk/Alcohol-knowledge-centre/Consumption/F... The extent to which this can be said to be driven by changes in the licensing regime versus changes in the population structure can't really be determined from this data.
TTPrograms 10y ago
I've had friends get killed by grocery store alcohol. It's very far from benign. See how productive this is?

oxide 10y ago

I've gone ahead and edited my comment, not because of your comment, but just because I felt like I wasn't making a clear point. Kratom is not even mentioned anymore, sorry. While kratom is habit forming and can "fuck you up" if you have no tolerance, the true value is for the person already addicted to opiates looking to get clean. If you want to keep drugs out of the hands of kids, make them all legal and watch the usage numbers fall. Banning a powdered leaf, that is quite self-regulating, albeit habit-forming, is a step backwards in the quest to put out the structure fire that the opiate crises has become.

DanBC 10y ago
> If you want to keep drugs out of the hands of kids, make them all legal and watch the usage numbers fall. Doesn't the UK experience with alcohol counter this? (I am strongly in favour of legalisation of all drugs).
- oxide 10y ago
  Amphetamine will be abused by college students. Alcohol will be abused by highschool kids. It's a given. The allure of stuff like cocaine, with the "what else was I lied to about, what am I missing out on" mindset goes out the window when you stop lying and start letting people make their own choices.
  - alva 10y ago
    You can't stop all the drug abuse but the extent of use is not a given. Amphetamine use of UK students appears to be extremely rare compared to the US, its never really been a cultural thing here. I suspect it is due to very few amphetamine drugs being prescribed, especially to children. It seems to common to hear about people selling their legitimate ADHD/ADD prescriptions to friends in the US. "Speed Paste" is the only amphetamine properly in circulation and its use is mostly restricted to the hardcore "junkie" groups, very much frowned upon from the casual drug community. None of the above is a solution, just to note the degree to which groups will gravitate towards and use a drug is not a given. Culture and availability probably affect use massively.
    - oxide 10y ago
      I completely agree. My example wasn't exactly the best, but relatively applicable to the US nevertheless. You raise many good points about drug use being different geographically and culturally. It's very much about availability, local drug culture, etc. For example, the speed paste. As you said, in the UK and in other European countries amphetamine is usually amphetamine in paste form, not crystal methylamphetamine like we usually see here in the states. Culture and availability absolutely affects use massively, a point I didn't mean to gloss over, and one I'm glad you raised.
      - alva 10y ago
        What a nice response :) I think identifying these differences between countries will bring governments a step closer to finding some sort of solution. Not exactly an easy one though when it comes to culture though. How do you break strong cultural associations? There seems to be a number of (bad)role models that glorify different drugs in sub-cultures. Opiate use is glamorised from what I can tell in southern HipHop, Cannabis promoted all over the shop, Xanax frequently referred to in Hollywood.
  - foldr 10y ago
    >Alcohol will be abused by highschool kids. It's a given But in the UK it's not even regarded as "abuse". It's perfectly normal for 15 year olds to drink alcohol with their friends. (And not against the law, if they are doing it in private.) There may be benefits to legalizing drugs, but the idea that it will reduce usage of them is a fantasy.
    - pjc50 10y ago
      It's in that strange area between normal and looked down on that depends on the class background of the observer. It is a problem, but a slowly declining one: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-31452735 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-31452735 And it seems that US drug legalisation has resulted in small decreases of use: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/colorado-s-teen-marijuana-usage-dips-after-legalization/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/colorado-s-teen-m... The only thing that's clear is that viewing drug and alcohol usage strictly as a crime problem rather than a health one doesn't work.
      - foldr 10y ago
        Cannabis is effectively legal in the UK now, but there's no evidence of a decline in use as far as I know. Certainly not a precipitous one. I'm not sure what you mean about class background. There must be very few 15 year olds in the UK, from any class background, who haven't used alcohol. I wasn't really referring to binge drinking. My point was that the fact that it's easier for young people to legally drink alcohol in the UK than it is in the US seems to have an effect.
        pjc50 10y ago
        Ah right, I was referring to distinction between "problematic" and "non-problematic" use. People generally accept that you can have a "non-problematic" use of alcohol but not everyone accepts that for the other drugs. Although you'll still find newspaper editorials concerned about teenage drinking. And in the really regressive papers, concern about women drinking. While cannabis simple possession is very rarely prosecuted the police are still going after grow houses. I think it would have to be legitimised (properly legal) to see a decline due to losing the "rebel" factor.
  - distances 10y ago
    > Amphetamine will be abused by college students. I found this a very peculiar claim. Is amphetamine misuse in colleges a big thing in the US? Edit: never mind, I see this was already discussed.
    - oxide 10y ago
      Yeah, it's all over. Prescription stimulants get diverted, resold at a markup, etc. The demand is high and the supply is there. Low doses of oral methamphetamine arent entirely uncommon either. Meth is cheaper, more potent and more widely available.
- disgruntledphd2 10y ago
  I don't think so, as the Economist believe that that event occurred in 2006 (http://www.economist.com/node/3536168 http://www.economist.com/node/3536168) and consumption fell from then until 2013 http://www.ias.org.uk/Alcohol-knowledge-centre/Consumption/Factsheets/Total-consumption-in-the-UK.aspx http://www.ias.org.uk/Alcohol-knowledge-centre/Consumption/F... The extent to which this can be said to be driven by changes in the licensing regime versus changes in the population structure can't really be determined from this data.

TTPrograms 10y ago

I've had friends get killed by grocery store alcohol. It's very far from benign. See how productive this is?