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> The UI remains a convoluted Escher'esque nightmare. Comments like this make it hard to take any side of the discussion seriously. /Neither/ of the OSes are

• Razengan 10y ago
  > Comments like this make it hard to take any side of the discussion seriously. /Neither/ of the OSes are "Escher'esque nightmare[s]." • macOS Finder: http://i.imgur.com/9Y5hK0e.png http://i.imgur.com/9Y5hK0e.png • Windows Explorer: http://i.imgur.com/ef7CnJ4.png http://i.imgur.com/ef7CnJ4.png Alright. Maybe not nightmarish, but one of these IS objectively more convoluted than the other. Let's start with something simple: WHY does the "Options" button on the Windows Explorer Ribbon (in the top-right corner) drop-down to reveal a SINGLE menu item which DOES THE EXACT SAME THING as clicking on the button itself? (Bonus: This is what happened when I tried to take a screenshot first: http://i.imgur.com/UsN554o.png http://i.imgur.com/UsN554o.png — Explorer hanged when trying to remove a shortcut to a now-missing network share.)
  • Ezhik 10y ago
    That ribbon is hidden by default.
    • Razengan 10y ago
      But it's not on the Finder, and the Finder defaults to the "All My Files" view which is completely empty on a new user account, so I changed one thing on each side to make the screenshots more comparable, but here are the absolute default views for each OS: http://i.imgur.com/Dni0Kpo.png http://i.imgur.com/Dni0Kpo.png http://i.imgur.com/TM8ZyLg.png http://i.imgur.com/TM8ZyLg.png The Finder is still less cluttered, with all its buttons in 1 toolbar instead of spread across 4.
  • arkades 10y ago
    Perhaps you're failing to view things from the perspective of the average user? I see the MacOS Finder and see unlabelled icons. My elderly folks are terrible at remembering what various icons do, and what error messages are for, etc. I've trained them to pause and read the words on the toolbar, read the words on the window, etc. as they're generally self-explanatory. So the finder that is more convoluted for a more proficient user, is the one that my folks can actually more reasonably navigate. Okay, your criticism is on point: the Explorer Options button has a redundant click. To me, that would matter if I ever used anything other than keyboard navigation. To my mother, father, and sister, "yay! It's f'n labeled!" My nieces don't give a damn either way, because they're too young to care about one unnecessary click, and they don't forget what the icons mean. Your point isn't wrong, it's just not that clear-cut an issue when dealing with different people with different levels of proficiency and needs. But the fact that we're down to "labels vs. reasonably intuitive icons, plus or minus a redundant click" suggests we're well into the weeds of trivialities.
    • adekok 10y ago
      > I've trained them to pause and read the words on the toolbar, read the words on the window, etc. as they're generally self-explanatory. You're a miracle worker. :) Failure to read what's on the screen is one of the biggest reasons why "non computer" people don't get things done with computers.
      • saghm 10y ago
        Sometimes not just "non computer people". The number of times as a computer science TA (for a non-intro class) I had to read people their compiler error messages is staggering.
    • fnordsensei 10y ago
      Right click the tool bar in Finder and choose "Icons and text" from the drop down. One can discuss what should be default.
    • jaequery 10y ago
      I see both sides of the arguments but I'm a power user and even I rarely need access to those icons. Let alone my grandma. Surely, I can't be the minority here. If you do not need it, I think it should be hidden by default as Macs have done it.
  • Symbiote 10y ago
    My mother would find the Windows one easier to use. There is text on the buttons, so if she presses something by mistake, she'll have more confidence to press other things to put it right again. Which even is the options on Finder? The cog, I assume. If I'm helping over the phone, can a user describe the current state of Finder? Not really. But I could ask for the contents of the address bar in Explorer.
    • Razengan 10y ago
      > If I'm helping over the phone, can a user describe the current state of Finder? Not really. But I could ask for the contents of the address bar in Explorer. • Click on the first icon/happy face at the bottom of the screen (to make sure Finder is in focus). • Click on "View" at the top of the screen [or press Cmd+Option+P] to show the Path Bar. ---- To guide someone to a specific folder: • Click on "Go" at the top of the screen [or press Cmd+Shift+G]. • Type the address.
  • sillysaurus3 10y ago
    By default the ribbon is hidden: http://i.imgur.com/5hxOIcb.png http://i.imgur.com/5hxOIcb.png I don't use Windows, but it's important to use fair comparisons.
    • Razengan 10y ago
      > By default the ribbon is hidden: http://i.imgur.com/5hxOIcb.png http://i.imgur.com/5hxOIcb.png You have to expand it and be faced with that hodgepodge of cluttered buttons to perform many functions. Even with it collapsed, it's still 4! toolbars (counting the buttons in the title bar and the ones in the bottom status bar) and a menu (?) style that is inconsistent with many other built-in Windows apps.
      • int_19h 10y ago
        You don't really have to expand it for typical day-to-day operations - everything of interest is in the context menu.
  • xorblurb 10y ago
    "macOS Finder": you are talking about that software that rename folders when you press the enter key? :p
    • Razengan 10y ago
      Can you give a reason why Enter to open a file is ideal, other than just because it's how Windows does it? The Windows Explorer uses Alt+Enter to show the properties of something, and in games and other apps that shortcut means Full Screen. Also, why does Alt+F4 quit an app? What does F4 stand for? Compared to Cmd+Q to Quit or Cmd+W to close it's a lot less intuitive. And so on and so forth.
      • keevie 10y ago
        Really, it doesn't make sense to you that enter would correspond to the most common, least destructive action? Alt-F4 makes little sense, true, but in almost all windows apps control-q or control-w does exactly the same thing as on osx. Also, having sane defaults for keys people are likely to press is much more important than /not/ having obscure keyboard shortcuts that users never have to know even exist.
        • Razengan 10y ago
          > the most common, least destructive action? Launching processes with a single keypress and no confirmation can hardly be called "the least destructive action."
        • Neeek 10y ago
          I want to say ctrl+q is an exit command from within the application (graceful shutdown) whereas alt+f4 is more of a system level halt for whatever is in focus (hard reset).
          • int_19h 10y ago
            That's not actually true. Alt+F4 is exactly the same as clicking the Close window button, and sends WM_CLOSE to the app, which can then handle it gracefully (or not) as it chooses. In particular, if you have unsaved data, most apps will prompt to save on Alt+F4.
  • freehunter 10y ago
    There's a lot to not like about Windows's UI, but Explorer is worlds better than Finder, there's absolutely no comparison. Every day I still struggle to remember how to go up a level. Option+Up? Nope that selects the next folder up. Control+Up? No, that made all of my windows do something weird that I don't know what that is. Ah, it's Command+Up. As far as I can tell, there's no non-keyboard way to do it. I can't click a button and go up to the parent folder, all I can do is go back, which is confusing if I forget what the previous folder was. Likewise, "All My Files" sorts based on... what? And which folders does it look in? Because very often I save a file from the Internet and it never shows up in All My Files. And when I search for something when I'm in a directory, I expect the search to be restricted to that directory by default. Instead it defaults to My Mac, which makes no sense. Is there also no way to get the current path as text? On Windows I can type "C:\Users\My Documents" by hand in Explorer. I don't see an option to do that in Finder. Explorer isn't perfect, but Finder is just awful. Just awful.
    • akio 10y ago
      > As far as I can tell, there's no non-keyboard way to do it. I can't click a button and go up to the parent folder, all I can do is go back, which is confusing if I forget what the previous folder was. Right-click on the toolbar and select "Customize Toolbar...", then drag the "Path" button into the toolbar.
      • deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
    • Razengan 10y ago
      > Option+Up? Nope that selects the next folder up. Control+Up? No, that made all of my windows do something weird that I don't know what that is. Ah, it's Command+Up. In macOS, generally: ⌘ Command = App-specific shortcuts. The primary modifier key. ⌃ Control = Global shortcuts. App-specific shortcuts will not generally have Control as the sole modifier. ⌥ Option/Alt = Something to with the keyboard, selection, or secondary modifier for a shortcut. Option+Up/Down is Page Up/Down. ⇧ Shift = Something to with the keyboard, selection, or secondary modifier for a shortcut. Common shortcuts are way more consistent than in Windows, and you can search for them from the Help menu of any app, and even modify/create shortcuts for any app from System Preferences -> Keyboard. ---- > As far as I can tell, there's no non-keyboard way to do it. Right-click on the folder icon in the title bar, use Columns view, or show the Path Bar from the View menu. > Likewise, "All My Files" sorts based on... what? Files in your home folder's hierarchy, that are indexed by Spotlight. > And when I search for something when I'm in a directory, I expect the search to be restricted to that directory by default. Instead it defaults to My Mac, which makes no sense. Keyword: defaults. You can change it. > Is there also no way to get the current path as text? On Windows I can type "C:\Users\My Documents" by hand in Explorer. I don't see an option to do that in Finder. "Go to Folder", it's under the Go menu. To copy an item's path name, hold down Option/Alt to modify the "Copy" menu item. ---- Most of your complaints are basically "it doesn't do everything the way Windows does it so it's bad" or "I'm furious because I didn't bother to tweak the defaults."
  • tw04 10y ago
    So to prove your point, you take a non-standard folder view on OSX, and a non-standard view on Windows to make the mac look simple and the windows version look convoluted. A+ While you can argue about whether or not the option to modify folder settings belongs within that window or on a title bar, taking screenshots like that is dishonest, at best.
    • Razengan 10y ago
      This is the default view when you click on the Explorer icon in the Windows Taskbar on a new user account: http://i.imgur.com/TM8ZyLg.png http://i.imgur.com/TM8ZyLg.png This is the default view for Finder on a new user account: http://i.imgur.com/Dni0Kpo.png http://i.imgur.com/Dni0Kpo.png The only thing I changed in this Finder screenshot is collapse the auto-populated Devices, Shared and Tags list for privacy, so I didn't have to edit the image. Notice that it defaults to the "All My Files" view which is empty for a new user and would be even more of an unfair comparison to the default Windows view.
  • fencepost 10y ago
    Regarding the Options button, I think you're mistaking the tooltip for a menu item. And as for when the ribbon is closed, assuming you're using an appropriate language selection I think I'd find "File/Home/Share/View" at least as informative as "4 squares/4 lines/3 boxes/multisize boxes" - and the text labels next to them on the Windows side when you're on the View ribbon to be much more informative.
    • Razengan 10y ago
      > I think you're mistaking the tooltip for a menu item. It's a bona-fide menu item, accessed via that extra dropdown button below the primary "Options" button.
  • darreld 10y ago
    As a longtime user of both OS's, I think Explorer is a lot more usable than Finder and has been for years. Personal choice of course.
  • domenukk 10y ago
    macOS Finder, for me, has always been one of the worst parts of of macOS btw. Try navigating to a different drive or to enter a path directly (without knowing the keyboard shortcut) or openeing a shell window at a location or doing anything useful... Explorer is so good at what it does. Maybe it's less pretty, form follows function?
    • tnecniv 10y ago
      Not to mention it gets special treatment as a program and the behavior of it in the task bar is weird and non-intuitive for inexperienced users.
  • andrewflnr 10y ago
    You're trying to compare a simple case of Finder with an Explorer screen that's on the middle of reconfiguring the view. Ordinarily it's much simpler-looking than that. This is not a remotely fair comparison.
  • hvidgaard 10y ago
    If you want to compare the two, at least use the default view. Pinning the ribbon and then call it more conveluted, is just trying to force your argument. http://imgur.com/a/5AGBU http://imgur.com/a/5AGBU
  • fencepost 10y ago
    Are you talking about 1) or 2) in http://imgur.com/gallery/J3KPm http://imgur.com/gallery/J3KPm If it's 2, that's because other items can be added to that menu, such as LastPass and Bitdefender just to use the examples conveniently at hand. And as a quick tip if you need to take a lot of screenshots on Windows - Greenshot is a great screenshotting program for Windows (and OSX, though I don't know how it is there), free, GPL, etc. Binds the PrtSc button and lets you select the area you want to capture as well as destination, format, etc.
• jfroma 10y ago
  I am tech savy and I have been using mac for 4 years. I can't find where to change settings on Windows 10 to be honest, I find my self looking at two different control panels all the time, one is the moderm one like for tablets and the other one is the one we had since Windows 95 I believe. Some settings can be changed in one but not in the other one.
• ddacunha 10y ago
  When I moved out to a far away country, in the early 2000's, my non-English speaking mom started using my localised-Windows desktop as the mean to keep int touch (hello Yahoo messenger). In the 2 years that followed there was not a month were I didn't receive an alarmed phone call from her about "The computer says I am at risk!" or "There is a message in English, I don't understand, it looks bad!". Switched to OS X and the tone changed to, "there was an update and every thing went fine". I have been using OS X (macOS) for the last 10 years but I can still see in my corporate environment that localisation of OS and third parties (hello mandatory anti-virus) is not a fixed issue.