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Because swiping is so much more convenient. With a magnetic transaction I can just swipe and put my card away. Most of the time I swipe at the beginning of a lo

by coin 10y ago

Because swiping is so much more convenient. With a magnetic transaction I can just swipe and put my card away. Most of the time I swipe at the beginning of a long checkout (grocery store). With a chip transaction, I need to leave the card in until the very end. I now need to leave my wallet out, or put the wallet away and then remember to take the card back. More card readers are optimized for swiping with card insertion as an afterthought. Inserting a chipcard is usually at some awkward angle. As a consumer, chipcard provides no benefit. Yes fraud is theoretically lower, yet the banks aren't passing any of these savings to me (I'm still waiting for lower rates or higher paybacks).

leeoniya 10y ago
yes, the chips protect banks from fraud. your contract with the credit card already protects you from fraud as long as you report it in a timely fashion.
chrisseaton 10y ago
Why do you want to put your card in at the start? Why not put it in at the end when it's time to pay?
- coin 10y ago
  It's faster that way.
- ghaff 10y ago
  He says why. With swiping, you can often do the swipe while the clerk is ringing up your groceries and put your wallet away as opposed to having to do the transaction at the end (as you also need to do if you use your phone). He's not wrong although this is pretty far down my list of life's annoyances :-)
  - chrisseaton 10y ago
    What happens if you get to the end and you want to dispute the cost and you've already swiped your card? Is it too late?
    - vertex-four 10y ago
      The swipe transaction system doesn't provide a mechanism to authorize a transaction for a specific amount, unlike the chip system. That is - you swipe, and the merchant uses the details on the magstripe to make some arbitrary transaction later on - potentially weeks or months later as I've found out in the very few places in the UK that still run offline transaction systems. With a chip system, you authorize a specific amount and no more within a dedicated machine, and the merchant doesn't get a hold of all the details necessary to make another transaction.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
    - ghaff 10y ago
      I imagine they'll void or otherwise adjust the transaction. I've never had an issue. Frankly I'm more likely to notice something while I'm leaving the store if something didn't seem quite right and I start looking over the receipt.
- rconti 10y ago
  Parellel vs serial
vertex-four 10y ago
You can actually put your card in at the beginning with certain machines in the UK, and then it picks it up once the cashier starts the payment process. You'll get weird looks if you do. The slot for the card is almost always at the bottom, under the PIN pad. I assume the US uses different machines, since you need to do some awkward signature thing?
- dangrossman 10y ago
  This is what a payment terminal looks like in most US chain stores. It would be attached to a mount of some sort on the customer side of a cashier booth: http://www.ncrcounterpoint.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/n/ingenico.png http://www.ncrcounterpoint.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1... It has a slot for a chip card at the bottom, a slot to swipe a card on the right, a PIN pad for debit transactions, and may be tap-enabled. The screen portion displays the order total and other instructions, and is also touch-sensitive for providing a signature using the attached stylus.
  - vertex-four 10y ago
    The ones at regular checkouts in the UK tend to look like this - https://www.primatel.co.uk/image/cache/data/ICT-EFT%20T&S%20300x300-380x380.jpg https://www.primatel.co.uk/image/cache/data/ICT-EFT%20T&S%20... You can swivel it, tilt it, and even pick it up off of its mount if it's in an awkward position.
sandGorgon 10y ago
This is NOT a consequence of chip card. In India, everything is chip and pin. Our ATM machines just need you to put the card in , chip side facing up and then take it out 2 seconds later (it glows green). Then you can put in your PIN number and move forward.
- icebraining 10y ago
  I think that's because ATMs are trusted devices, and only need a generic signed authorization to do anything. Payment terminals need to have the specific transaction amounts signed by the card, IIRC. At least that's the model I've learned here in my (European) country.
  - sandGorgon 10y ago
    No. ATM need to sign amounts as well,but keep the key in memory. I don't think it's a consequence of swipe vs chip or anything. It just the UX built into the machine. IMHO , consumers find it reassuring that they are asked for a pin AFTER the amount is entered into a swipe machine in a bar (where you are much more likely to be drunk). This kind of a mechanism is very nice when amount is entered by someone else (the retailer/cashier). At the ATM, you are the only one that enters the amount. So the pin entry at the end of the workflow is not a bug..It's a feature.
    - icebraining 10y ago
      ATM need to sign amounts as well,but keep the key in memory. That's not possible with the model used around here. The card's key never leaves the card, all the crypto is performed inside the card's chip itself.
tyoma 10y ago
Yes, this! At least in the US, there is zero benefit to me as a consumer from chip cards. The banks have not increased rewards, or lowered interchange fees (thereby lowering retail prices). Federal law protects me from fraud no matter the card input method. Due to the risk of online fraud, I still have to check my statement for fraudulent charges. There are, however, noticeable downsides. Including everything coin mentioned, here are a few more downsides to chip cards, at least in the US: * Chip cards are slow in the US. This has gotten better lately, but its still bad. Before the downvotes start, look at the references [1] [2]. This leads noticeably longer lines at stores. * Not every merchant accepts chip cards. Sometimes its hard to tell which version the merchant accepts. * There are a lot more annoying noises (the buzz when you leave your card in too long). Its a small nuisance, but it adds up. Previously the transactions were silent. [1] https://www.quora.com/Why-are-chip-payments-so-slow-in-the-US https://www.quora.com/Why-are-chip-payments-so-slow-in-the-U... [2] https://www.wsj.com/articles/chip-card-nightmares-help-is-on-the-way-1470163865 https://www.wsj.com/articles/chip-card-nightmares-help-is-on...
- ecnahc515 10y ago
  While federal law protects you from fraud, it's still extremely inconvenient to have your credit card skimmed and then likely automatically cancelled by your bank at an inconvenient time when someone tries to use it, and left without that credit card until the replacement shows up. Chip & Pin solves this particular issue fairly well. This is even more critical for debit cards being skimmed where it's actually a non-trivial process to get your money back.
  - Neliquat 10y ago
    Not so, the new chip skimmers are even smaller than the mag readers due to the tech.
alkonaut 10y ago
The swipe is a 1 second job, but the insert+PIN takes maybe 10sec. I do the card+pin at any point while the cashier is registering my groceries. By the time he finished scanning them all, the card has been back in my pocket a long time. The only thing I do at the end is hit "ok" to confirm the amount. The procedure would be exactly the same with a magnetic card. Even just the convenience of a more reliable read is worth it.
- coin 10y ago
  This doesn't work in the US. Where I live, for a credit card chipcard, the cashier has to finish, then there's a 2-way authentication with the server whereby the card has to stay in the reader. This is why the card has to stay out until the very end.
  - alkonaut 10y ago
    I can see the extra security added by having the card in at the time of confirmation - but it seems a pretty heavy price to pay. This certainly isn't worth 10 seconds extra per customer checkout in a supermarket.
Johnie 10y ago
> With a chip transaction, I need to leave the card in until the very end. Visa announced Quick Chip EMV that enable you to dip your card at any time of the transaction for it to generate and capture a cryptogram before the end of the transaction. This will allow Visa EMV to be almost as fast as swiping. https://www.visa.com/chip/merchants/grow-your-business/payment-technologies/credit-card-chip/resources.jsp https://www.visa.com/chip/merchants/grow-your-business/payme... http://www.pymnts.com/news/emv/2016/visa-puts-the-quick-into-emv/ http://www.pymnts.com/news/emv/2016/visa-puts-the-quick-into...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
Johnie 10y ago
> With a chip transaction, I need to leave the card in until the very end. Visa announced Quick Chip EMV that enable you to dip your card at any time of the transaction for it to generate and capture a cryptogram before the end of the transaction. This will allow Visa EMV to be almost as fast as swiping. https://www.visa.com/chip/merchants/grow-your-business/payment-technologies/credit-card-chip/resources.jsp https://www.visa.com/chip/merchants/grow-your-business/payme... http://www.pymnts.com/news/emv/2016/visa-puts-the-quick-into-emv/ http://www.pymnts.com/news/emv/2016/visa-puts-the-quick-into...

by coin 10y ago

leeoniya 10y ago

yes, the chips protect banks from fraud. your contract with the credit card already protects you from fraud as long as you report it in a timely fashion.

chrisseaton 10y ago

Why do you want to put your card in at the start? Why not put it in at the end when it's time to pay?

coin 10y ago
It's faster that way.
ghaff 10y ago
He says why. With swiping, you can often do the swipe while the clerk is ringing up your groceries and put your wallet away as opposed to having to do the transaction at the end (as you also need to do if you use your phone). He's not wrong although this is pretty far down my list of life's annoyances :-)
- chrisseaton 10y ago
  What happens if you get to the end and you want to dispute the cost and you've already swiped your card? Is it too late?
  - vertex-four 10y ago
    The swipe transaction system doesn't provide a mechanism to authorize a transaction for a specific amount, unlike the chip system. That is - you swipe, and the merchant uses the details on the magstripe to make some arbitrary transaction later on - potentially weeks or months later as I've found out in the very few places in the UK that still run offline transaction systems. With a chip system, you authorize a specific amount and no more within a dedicated machine, and the merchant doesn't get a hold of all the details necessary to make another transaction.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - ghaff 10y ago
    I imagine they'll void or otherwise adjust the transaction. I've never had an issue. Frankly I'm more likely to notice something while I'm leaving the store if something didn't seem quite right and I start looking over the receipt.
rconti 10y ago
Parellel vs serial

vertex-four 10y ago

You can actually put your card in at the beginning with certain machines in the UK, and then it picks it up once the cashier starts the payment process. You'll get weird looks if you do. The slot for the card is almost always at the bottom, under the PIN pad. I assume the US uses different machines, since you need to do some awkward signature thing?

dangrossman 10y ago
This is what a payment terminal looks like in most US chain stores. It would be attached to a mount of some sort on the customer side of a cashier booth: http://www.ncrcounterpoint.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/n/ingenico.png http://www.ncrcounterpoint.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1... It has a slot for a chip card at the bottom, a slot to swipe a card on the right, a PIN pad for debit transactions, and may be tap-enabled. The screen portion displays the order total and other instructions, and is also touch-sensitive for providing a signature using the attached stylus.
- vertex-four 10y ago
  The ones at regular checkouts in the UK tend to look like this - https://www.primatel.co.uk/image/cache/data/ICT-EFT%20T&S%20300x300-380x380.jpg https://www.primatel.co.uk/image/cache/data/ICT-EFT%20T&S%20... You can swivel it, tilt it, and even pick it up off of its mount if it's in an awkward position.

sandGorgon 10y ago

This is NOT a consequence of chip card. In India, everything is chip and pin. Our ATM machines just need you to put the card in , chip side facing up and then take it out 2 seconds later (it glows green). Then you can put in your PIN number and move forward.

icebraining 10y ago
I think that's because ATMs are trusted devices, and only need a generic signed authorization to do anything. Payment terminals need to have the specific transaction amounts signed by the card, IIRC. At least that's the model I've learned here in my (European) country.
- sandGorgon 10y ago
  No. ATM need to sign amounts as well,but keep the key in memory. I don't think it's a consequence of swipe vs chip or anything. It just the UX built into the machine. IMHO , consumers find it reassuring that they are asked for a pin AFTER the amount is entered into a swipe machine in a bar (where you are much more likely to be drunk). This kind of a mechanism is very nice when amount is entered by someone else (the retailer/cashier). At the ATM, you are the only one that enters the amount. So the pin entry at the end of the workflow is not a bug..It's a feature.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    ATM need to sign amounts as well,but keep the key in memory. That's not possible with the model used around here. The card's key never leaves the card, all the crypto is performed inside the card's chip itself.

tyoma 10y ago

Yes, this! At least in the US, there is zero benefit to me as a consumer from chip cards. The banks have not increased rewards, or lowered interchange fees (thereby lowering retail prices). Federal law protects me from fraud no matter the card input method. Due to the risk of online fraud, I still have to check my statement for fraudulent charges. There are, however, noticeable downsides. Including everything coin mentioned, here are a few more downsides to chip cards, at least in the US: * Chip cards are slow in the US. This has gotten better lately, but its still bad. Before the downvotes start, look at the references [1] [2]. This leads noticeably longer lines at stores. * Not every merchant accepts chip cards. Sometimes its hard to tell which version the merchant accepts. * There are a lot more annoying noises (the buzz when you leave your card in too long). Its a small nuisance, but it adds up. Previously the transactions were silent. [1] https://www.quora.com/Why-are-chip-payments-so-slow-in-the-US https://www.quora.com/Why-are-chip-payments-so-slow-in-the-U... [2] https://www.wsj.com/articles/chip-card-nightmares-help-is-on-the-way-1470163865 https://www.wsj.com/articles/chip-card-nightmares-help-is-on...

ecnahc515 10y ago
While federal law protects you from fraud, it's still extremely inconvenient to have your credit card skimmed and then likely automatically cancelled by your bank at an inconvenient time when someone tries to use it, and left without that credit card until the replacement shows up. Chip & Pin solves this particular issue fairly well. This is even more critical for debit cards being skimmed where it's actually a non-trivial process to get your money back.
- Neliquat 10y ago
  Not so, the new chip skimmers are even smaller than the mag readers due to the tech.

alkonaut 10y ago

The swipe is a 1 second job, but the insert+PIN takes maybe 10sec. I do the card+pin at any point while the cashier is registering my groceries. By the time he finished scanning them all, the card has been back in my pocket a long time. The only thing I do at the end is hit "ok" to confirm the amount. The procedure would be exactly the same with a magnetic card. Even just the convenience of a more reliable read is worth it.

coin 10y ago
This doesn't work in the US. Where I live, for a credit card chipcard, the cashier has to finish, then there's a 2-way authentication with the server whereby the card has to stay in the reader. This is why the card has to stay out until the very end.
- alkonaut 10y ago
  I can see the extra security added by having the card in at the time of confirmation - but it seems a pretty heavy price to pay. This certainly isn't worth 10 seconds extra per customer checkout in a supermarket.

Johnie 10y ago

> With a chip transaction, I need to leave the card in until the very end. Visa announced Quick Chip EMV that enable you to dip your card at any time of the transaction for it to generate and capture a cryptogram before the end of the transaction. This will allow Visa EMV to be almost as fast as swiping. https://www.visa.com/chip/merchants/grow-your-business/payment-technologies/credit-card-chip/resources.jsp https://www.visa.com/chip/merchants/grow-your-business/payme... http://www.pymnts.com/news/emv/2016/visa-puts-the-quick-into-emv/ http://www.pymnts.com/news/emv/2016/visa-puts-the-quick-into...

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

Johnie 10y ago