7 ms·

As the paper I cite shows, what changed is that women are entering the workforce and finding better jobs than men. I think we are saying the same thing.

ryanmarsh 10y ago
I follow you. I take issue with "Female hypergamy is probably the real issue here.". That strategy isn't the problem. It's a constant in the equation. As far as men are concerned it might as well be Planck's constant. From a purely biological approach you should be more concerned about things that give the opposite sex a more competitive edge not declare that they should cease to be competitive.
- dgudkov 10y ago
  The stability of the strategy can be the problem. If the strategy assumes increased attractiveness of males with higher relative income, then the higher the female income becomes the fewer men fall into the higher relative income category which boosts hypergamy even more. Therefore a constant hypergamy strategy coupled with growing female income lead to increasingly less effective dating market for both male and female sides of it. To resolve the problem either the female income should decrease (which women don't want to do), or the strategy should change (which women can't do). Otherwise we're heading into a fundamental social crisis.
  - ryanmarsh 10y ago
    Oh people are going to be unhappy that's for sure. I'm looking forward to the day when progressive minded people decide they liked things better the old fashioned way.
  - nyargh 10y ago
    Only works if you don't treat women like chattel and remove the financial disincentive to end abusive relationships. Enter MRA crybabies re: alimony, child support, etc.
    - ryanmarsh 10y ago
      You obviously are not a divorced male with children. The alimony and child support laws were laid down in an era where there was an almost insurmountable financial disincentive to leave an abusive relationship. Therefore the courts purposefully favor the woman. Divorce is unfair by design. However circumstances have changed so men have some right to complain now. Two things could change this, the advent of male birth control, and men realizing that legal marriage is an unfair contract. The former would give men outsized control over when to have a baby and that choice can be made without signaling intent (less obvious than a condom). This is the advantage a woman has now. She can choose when to have a baby without signaling intent, and can even change her mind after the fact. The latter gives a man no reason to marry a woman much less the beloved mother of his children except to appease her nagging. As female agency increases males will be less and less willing to risk the exposure of legal marriage and children when they will be left footing the bill. A hypergamous wife (AWALT) with equal or more agency than you is a risky proposition.
      - sanderjd 10y ago
        Sorry for the meta-comment, but just in case you're interested: I think all the jargon used in this thread is unhelpful to your argument. That I've read this whole thread and still can't quite figure out what "hypergamy" is from context, or exactly how it is "the real problem" signals to me that I'm an outsider of whatever community it is that talks casually about this stuff in these terms. That's probably fine if you're just trying to preach to your choir, but if you would rather not be ignored by someone like me looking in on an unfamiliar situation with curiosity, it isn't very effective.
        ryanmarsh 10y ago
        I hope this doesn't come off as flippant but you're going to have to Google this one. This is a sub area of what I'll casually refer to as "amateur male sexual competitive philosophy". Terms like hypergamy, AWALT, feminine social primacy, etc. are all symbols of a lot of meaning. You couldn't break each one down and justify its correctness in a single comment here. Nor would you want to.
- blackbagboys 10y ago
  That wouldn't allow him to blame women, though.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  I didn't declare that anyone should cease to be competitive. I simply pointed out that the proximate cause of the problem is a decrease relative to women, not any absolute decrease in position as the parent post claimed.

ryanmarsh 10y ago

I follow you. I take issue with "Female hypergamy is probably the real issue here.". That strategy isn't the problem. It's a constant in the equation. As far as men are concerned it might as well be Planck's constant. From a purely biological approach you should be more concerned about things that give the opposite sex a more competitive edge not declare that they should cease to be competitive.

dgudkov 10y ago
The stability of the strategy can be the problem. If the strategy assumes increased attractiveness of males with higher relative income, then the higher the female income becomes the fewer men fall into the higher relative income category which boosts hypergamy even more. Therefore a constant hypergamy strategy coupled with growing female income lead to increasingly less effective dating market for both male and female sides of it. To resolve the problem either the female income should decrease (which women don't want to do), or the strategy should change (which women can't do). Otherwise we're heading into a fundamental social crisis.
- ryanmarsh 10y ago
  Oh people are going to be unhappy that's for sure. I'm looking forward to the day when progressive minded people decide they liked things better the old fashioned way.
- nyargh 10y ago
  Only works if you don't treat women like chattel and remove the financial disincentive to end abusive relationships. Enter MRA crybabies re: alimony, child support, etc.
  - ryanmarsh 10y ago
    You obviously are not a divorced male with children. The alimony and child support laws were laid down in an era where there was an almost insurmountable financial disincentive to leave an abusive relationship. Therefore the courts purposefully favor the woman. Divorce is unfair by design. However circumstances have changed so men have some right to complain now. Two things could change this, the advent of male birth control, and men realizing that legal marriage is an unfair contract. The former would give men outsized control over when to have a baby and that choice can be made without signaling intent (less obvious than a condom). This is the advantage a woman has now. She can choose when to have a baby without signaling intent, and can even change her mind after the fact. The latter gives a man no reason to marry a woman much less the beloved mother of his children except to appease her nagging. As female agency increases males will be less and less willing to risk the exposure of legal marriage and children when they will be left footing the bill. A hypergamous wife (AWALT) with equal or more agency than you is a risky proposition.
    - sanderjd 10y ago
      Sorry for the meta-comment, but just in case you're interested: I think all the jargon used in this thread is unhelpful to your argument. That I've read this whole thread and still can't quite figure out what "hypergamy" is from context, or exactly how it is "the real problem" signals to me that I'm an outsider of whatever community it is that talks casually about this stuff in these terms. That's probably fine if you're just trying to preach to your choir, but if you would rather not be ignored by someone like me looking in on an unfamiliar situation with curiosity, it isn't very effective.
      - ryanmarsh 10y ago
        I hope this doesn't come off as flippant but you're going to have to Google this one. This is a sub area of what I'll casually refer to as "amateur male sexual competitive philosophy". Terms like hypergamy, AWALT, feminine social primacy, etc. are all symbols of a lot of meaning. You couldn't break each one down and justify its correctness in a single comment here. Nor would you want to.
blackbagboys 10y ago
That wouldn't allow him to blame women, though.
yummyfajitas 10y ago
I didn't declare that anyone should cease to be competitive. I simply pointed out that the proximate cause of the problem is a decrease relative to women, not any absolute decrease in position as the parent post claimed.