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"Q: What sorts of acts may constitute obstruction of justice? A: Obstruction may consist of any attempt to hinder the discovery, apprehension, conviction or pu

"Q: What sorts of acts may constitute obstruction of justice? A: Obstruction may consist of any attempt to hinder the discovery, apprehension, conviction or punishment of anyone who has committed a crime. Q: Does obstruction of justice always involve bribery or physical force? A: No. One particularly murky category of obstruction is the use of "misleading conduct" toward another person for the purpose of obstructing justice. "Misleading conduct" may consist of deliberate lies or "material omissions" (leaving out facts which are crucial to a case). It may also include knowingly submitting or inviting a judge or jury to rely on false or misleading physical evidence, such as documents, maps, photographs or other objects. Any other "trick, scheme, or device with intent to mislead" may constitute a "misleading conduct" form of obstruction. " If the city has made it actually illegal to drive uber vehicles, this is pretty much textbook obstruction on the part of uber, ....

harryh 10y ago
Isn't obstruction of justice something that happens after a crime has been committed? If I'm a thief and I do my thieving in the middle of the night when no one is around that's an attempt to hinder discovery but it's not obstruction of justice (I don't think?). Similarly if Uber is operating illegally in a city and they use software to avoid picking up a city official in a sting operation that doesn't sound like obstruction. I'm no lawyer though.
- DannyBee 10y ago
  IAAL (but i've only done small amount of criminal work). A crime has been committed, even if they don't pick up the officials. If uber is operating illegally, the drivers that have picked anyone up have committed a crime. Keeping the cars away from the officials trying to ticket and prosecute those drivers is the obstruction. That is, it's not the "avoiding sting" that causes it to be obstruction, because the crime was committed the second a driver picked someone up. Instead, the obstruction is "helping drivers who have committed crimes not be noticed, ticketed, or prosecuted" That's definitely obstruction in jurisdictions that have this form of obstruction.
  - harryh 10y ago
    But the city's goal with these sting operations wasn't to catch and prosecute drivers/uber for previous trips. It was to catch them in the act for a single trip and prosecute them for that. To use another analogy, if I'm a drug dealer and the cops try to buy drugs from me in a sting operation and I somehow figure out that they're cops and walk away before doing a deal is that obstruction of justice? Because I think that's basically what is (was?) happening here.
    - DannyBee 10y ago
      "But the city's goal with these sting operations wasn't to catch and prosecute drivers/uber for previous trips." Errr, sure it is. Their investigatory mechanism happen to be to try catch them on a trip they could prove originated in the city, giving them probable cause to stop them and ticket them. This just happens to be easier to do as a sting. "It was to catch them in the act for a single trip and prosecute them for that." That is just the method, not the purpose of the investigation. Your argument is what would be called "a distinction without a difference" If the FBI is looking for illegal uranium sellers, and they try to buy/bust a low level guy as part of the investigation, it does not make the investigation about the buy/bust, it's still to catch and prosecute illegal uranium sellers. Here, the investigation's goal was to catch and prosecute uber drivers driving illegally. In any case, it doesn't matter. Remember "Obstruction may consist of any attempt to hinder the discovery, apprehension, conviction or punishment of anyone who has committed a crime. " Not "the crime you are currently investigating", but any crime. For example, oneo the the federal statute says: "(a) Whoever willfully endeavors by means of bribery to obstruct, delay, or prevent the communication of information relating to a violation of any criminal statute of the United States by any person to a criminal investigator shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both." (emph mine) (Ignore the bribery part, there's a ton of these statutes,i'm just pulling out one) "To use another analogy, if I'm a drug dealer and the cops try to buy drugs from me in a sting operation and I somehow figure out that they're cops and walk away before doing a deal is that obstruction of justice? Because I think that's basically what is (was?) happening here. " This isn't obstruction, but it's not what is happening here. Imagine if the cops were investigating you for dealing drugs. They already had evidence you deal drugs. They ask your friend where you are, even just to talk to you, to try to get cleaner evidence, and he deliberately lies about where you are to protect you. Congrats, that's obstruction in a lot of jurisdictions. No sting reuired. Here, the cops are asking the uber app where the drivers are. They know or have probable cause to believe the drivers have committed crimes (again, the sting part is just about having a very clean prosecution, it's not required or necessary here). Uber deliberately lies about where the drivers are, with the purpose of protecting them from this investigation. You can ignore the sting they were doing completely. The crime was complete the second a law enforcement officer, trying to investigate the crimes of an uber driver, opened the app in an attempt to find a driver (even just to talk to!) and got fake results.
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andrewflnr 10y ago
Maybe I'm just blasé about the whole thing. I'm just saying that when you take into account the fact that they were already breaking the law, using this tool to help isn't a big jump. People in this thread are acting shocked, and I don't get it.

harryh 10y ago

Isn't obstruction of justice something that happens after a crime has been committed? If I'm a thief and I do my thieving in the middle of the night when no one is around that's an attempt to hinder discovery but it's not obstruction of justice (I don't think?). Similarly if Uber is operating illegally in a city and they use software to avoid picking up a city official in a sting operation that doesn't sound like obstruction. I'm no lawyer though.

DannyBee 10y ago
IAAL (but i've only done small amount of criminal work). A crime has been committed, even if they don't pick up the officials. If uber is operating illegally, the drivers that have picked anyone up have committed a crime. Keeping the cars away from the officials trying to ticket and prosecute those drivers is the obstruction. That is, it's not the "avoiding sting" that causes it to be obstruction, because the crime was committed the second a driver picked someone up. Instead, the obstruction is "helping drivers who have committed crimes not be noticed, ticketed, or prosecuted" That's definitely obstruction in jurisdictions that have this form of obstruction.
- harryh 10y ago
  But the city's goal with these sting operations wasn't to catch and prosecute drivers/uber for previous trips. It was to catch them in the act for a single trip and prosecute them for that. To use another analogy, if I'm a drug dealer and the cops try to buy drugs from me in a sting operation and I somehow figure out that they're cops and walk away before doing a deal is that obstruction of justice? Because I think that's basically what is (was?) happening here.
  - DannyBee 10y ago
    "But the city's goal with these sting operations wasn't to catch and prosecute drivers/uber for previous trips." Errr, sure it is. Their investigatory mechanism happen to be to try catch them on a trip they could prove originated in the city, giving them probable cause to stop them and ticket them. This just happens to be easier to do as a sting. "It was to catch them in the act for a single trip and prosecute them for that." That is just the method, not the purpose of the investigation. Your argument is what would be called "a distinction without a difference" If the FBI is looking for illegal uranium sellers, and they try to buy/bust a low level guy as part of the investigation, it does not make the investigation about the buy/bust, it's still to catch and prosecute illegal uranium sellers. Here, the investigation's goal was to catch and prosecute uber drivers driving illegally. In any case, it doesn't matter. Remember "Obstruction may consist of any attempt to hinder the discovery, apprehension, conviction or punishment of anyone who has committed a crime. " Not "the crime you are currently investigating", but any crime. For example, oneo the the federal statute says: "(a) Whoever willfully endeavors by means of bribery to obstruct, delay, or prevent the communication of information relating to a violation of any criminal statute of the United States by any person to a criminal investigator shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both." (emph mine) (Ignore the bribery part, there's a ton of these statutes,i'm just pulling out one) "To use another analogy, if I'm a drug dealer and the cops try to buy drugs from me in a sting operation and I somehow figure out that they're cops and walk away before doing a deal is that obstruction of justice? Because I think that's basically what is (was?) happening here. " This isn't obstruction, but it's not what is happening here. Imagine if the cops were investigating you for dealing drugs. They already had evidence you deal drugs. They ask your friend where you are, even just to talk to you, to try to get cleaner evidence, and he deliberately lies about where you are to protect you. Congrats, that's obstruction in a lot of jurisdictions. No sting reuired. Here, the cops are asking the uber app where the drivers are. They know or have probable cause to believe the drivers have committed crimes (again, the sting part is just about having a very clean prosecution, it's not required or necessary here). Uber deliberately lies about where the drivers are, with the purpose of protecting them from this investigation. You can ignore the sting they were doing completely. The crime was complete the second a law enforcement officer, trying to investigate the crimes of an uber driver, opened the app in an attempt to find a driver (even just to talk to!) and got fake results.

deleted 10y ago

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andrewflnr 10y ago

Maybe I'm just blasé about the whole thing. I'm just saying that when you take into account the fact that they were already breaking the law, using this tool to help isn't a big jump. People in this thread are acting shocked, and I don't get it.