5 ms·

So... Tina's an asshole/jerk/bitch, but where's the sexism?! (I'm not disputing sexism in Susan Fowler's case.)

by tomp 10y ago

MBCook 10y ago
The comments about the tank top were blatant sexism. The rest just seemed like terrible management.
- stagbeetle 10y ago
  We can't make that judgement without more info.
- caminante 10y ago
  I'm struggling to understand how that's sexism. Can you explain your criteria for sexism? (I'm asking in good faith.)
  - MBCook 10y ago
    It was a comment based on her appearance (and assumedly how 'sexy' she was dressing). That's the reason. If a Male manager told her she probably isn't doing well because of how she dresses (and she dresses reasonably) that would be sexism, so it's the same thing if it's another women doing it. On the scale of sexism this isn't as bad as the other things reported about Uber (she wasn't propositioned for example), but I believe you could argue it as sexism (IANAL, you'd need to one tell you for sure).
    - caminante 10y ago
      Thanks for sharing your perspective. Your comment has broadened my perception of sexism beyond "Can this person win in court?" > If a Male manager told her she probably isn't doing well because of how she dresses (and she dresses reasonably) that would be sexism, so it's the same thing if it's another women doing it. Yet, this isn't what happened! ;-) According to the author's own words. Manager in a 1:1 a) asked if the author noticed the lack of eye contact with the other manager b) tentatively asked if the author thought it was because of the tank top and c) suggested the author wears long sleeves. The author's convinced the tank top isn't an issue because she gets ice cream with the subordinates. To me, the author's drawing wild conclusions. Maybe her manager knows something or heard another manager make an off-hand comment about the dress code. I would appreciate that advice so I can decide for myself whether to make a simple adjustment to my wardrobe.
      - catshirt 10y ago
        > Maybe her manager knows something or heard another manager make an off-hand comment about the dress code. then they either have an unclear dress code which they enforce in an unprofessional and inconsistent manner, or two sexist managers. > I would appreciate that advice so I can decide for myself whether to make a simple adjustment to my wardrobe. dress in whatever makes you most comfortable (and abides by your company's dress code). if someone has something to say, they're kind of a dick. if someone has something to say they wouldn't say to the other gender, they're a sexist kind of a dick.
  - neutronicus 10y ago
    "Tina" is preying on the author's nascent anxieties about how her male co-workers perceive her body, clothing choices, etc. It's a form of harassment that's pretty obviously tailored to the author's gender (how many men report anxieties about being taken less seriously because they show too much skin?). The modern use of the word "sexism" includes gender-tailored harassment. It's a broader term nowadays than just "holding a belief that women are worse at X".
    - caminante 10y ago
      I also don't think sexism is limited to gender1 < gender2. That said, I think you're argument's too broad. If you want to call it harrassment, call it harrassment, but I don't get sexism. > (how many men report anxieties about being taken less seriously because they show too much skin?). How many guys wear tank tops at work? Some do. In order for your criteria to be consistent, you're saying that if a man were to wear a tank top at Uber and his boss told him not to wear a tank top, that it'd be sexist? I think that's what you're saying. If so, that's a slippery slope as it would lead to ALL dress codes being discriminatory.
      - catshirt 10y ago
        > In order for your criteria to be consistent, you're saying that if a man were to wear a tank top at Uber and his boss told him not to wear a tank top, that it'd be sexist? no... the exact opposite. it's sexist because, presumably, the manager would not try to reprimand and/or embarrass a male for a tank top. to neutronicus' broader point though, i can't imagine anyone ever making these remarks to a male at all. because there are double standards when it comes to dress and skin. not trying to get political... like, there's no social expectation for men to hide their breasts at the beach. "gender-tailored" is apt. it wouldn't even cross someones mind to say this stuff to a guy.
  - randycupertino 10y ago
    I'm curious about this, too. If a guy wore a tanktop like this http://g02.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1liNdIXXXXXamXpXXq6xXFXXXs/2014-New-summer-Men-Modal-sexy-racerback-tank-top-male-regata-masculina-undershirt-loose-t-shirt.jpg http://g02.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1liNdIXXXXXamXpXXq6xXFXXXs/201.... It would be equally non-work appropriate. The office should have just implemented a dress code for everyone.
  - stale2002 10y ago
    I, as a man, have literally never had my boss give me feedback on the clothes that I am wearing. That has never happened.
- adrr 10y ago
  It would be sexism if it was directed only at women which is not specified in the blog post. If you're meeting with another manager for a transfer, its probably a good idea not to wear a tank top both sexes included.
  - MBCook 10y ago
    > It would be sexism if it was directed only at women [...] So if a manager has a department composed of 100% of one gender they can't make sexist comments about their employees' clothes because there isn't someone of the opposite gender to see if it's 'sexist'? It sounds a lot like things I've heard used as examples of sexism in lawsuits against companies before, so I'm willing to believe that it is sexist (sounds like it fits in my mind) and I believe it's what the writer was referring to in the title (whether others think it is sexism).
SolarNet 10y ago
The manager wasn't telling male workers to wear long sleeved shirts, so that's the most obvious one. It was also obviously the last straw. Often in stories like these the last straw seems pretty stupid compared to a larger problem. People have a breaking point but it's often a small thing that puts them over it, the straw that broke the camels back. Although the story doesn't spell out the gender of everyone on the team - the statistics of 11 engineers implies she could be the only female - only controlling her work behavior (where and when she can work), but not her coworkers (that they can work from home), if all her coworkers are male, is pretty sexist. And it may be indicative a deeper - and more pervasive - problem of sexism (for example, she was regularly managed differently because she was female, which sounds like the case) that was the main problem for her.
- caminante 10y ago
  I'm not following at all. Where does it say the manager "wasn't telling male workers to wear long sleeved shirts?" Even if so, how's that sexist? To say that something's sexist because a man gets different advice than a woman with no context is unacceptable criteria for sexism. Re: WFH, she's a junior employee (graduated in 2015) whose boss told her to "be at [her] desk to 'ensure that [she's] collaborating with the team and getting the support [she] need[s]." She's complaining about getting reprimanded for "working from home for one hour in the morning." That sounds like she was expected to be in the office and didn't clear ahead with her manager. Why was she WFH for just one hour? How's the reprimand sexism? Taking her claims at face value, she's not making a strong case for sexism.
  - user5994461 10y ago
    > Taking her claims at face value, she's not making a strong case for sexism. Agree. It's "just" a common case of "bad" management.
    - SolarNet 10y ago
      I think there is a deeper problem here with HR. Uber didn't care enough to figure out whether it was sexist or not (or even care enough to do anything about it at all). That means Uber is sexist simply by not caring enough to check (regardless of whether this was or wasn't sexism). * As always a lot of caveats apply: If sexism is defined as legally culpable discrimination of a protected class (rather than looser social definitions, or even broader sociology definitions). If we take her statements at face value.

So... Tina's an asshole/jerk/bitch, but where's the sexism?! (I'm not disputing sexism in Susan Fowler's case.)

by tomp 10y ago

So... Tina's an asshole/jerk/bitch, but where's the sexism?! (I'm not disputing sexism in Susan Fowler's case.)

MBCook 10y ago

The comments about the tank top were blatant sexism. The rest just seemed like terrible management.

stagbeetle 10y ago
We can't make that judgement without more info.
caminante 10y ago
I'm struggling to understand how that's sexism. Can you explain your criteria for sexism? (I'm asking in good faith.)
- MBCook 10y ago
  It was a comment based on her appearance (and assumedly how 'sexy' she was dressing). That's the reason. If a Male manager told her she probably isn't doing well because of how she dresses (and she dresses reasonably) that would be sexism, so it's the same thing if it's another women doing it. On the scale of sexism this isn't as bad as the other things reported about Uber (she wasn't propositioned for example), but I believe you could argue it as sexism (IANAL, you'd need to one tell you for sure).
  - caminante 10y ago
    Thanks for sharing your perspective. Your comment has broadened my perception of sexism beyond "Can this person win in court?" > If a Male manager told her she probably isn't doing well because of how she dresses (and she dresses reasonably) that would be sexism, so it's the same thing if it's another women doing it. Yet, this isn't what happened! ;-) According to the author's own words. Manager in a 1:1 a) asked if the author noticed the lack of eye contact with the other manager b) tentatively asked if the author thought it was because of the tank top and c) suggested the author wears long sleeves. The author's convinced the tank top isn't an issue because she gets ice cream with the subordinates. To me, the author's drawing wild conclusions. Maybe her manager knows something or heard another manager make an off-hand comment about the dress code. I would appreciate that advice so I can decide for myself whether to make a simple adjustment to my wardrobe.
    - catshirt 10y ago
      > Maybe her manager knows something or heard another manager make an off-hand comment about the dress code. then they either have an unclear dress code which they enforce in an unprofessional and inconsistent manner, or two sexist managers. > I would appreciate that advice so I can decide for myself whether to make a simple adjustment to my wardrobe. dress in whatever makes you most comfortable (and abides by your company's dress code). if someone has something to say, they're kind of a dick. if someone has something to say they wouldn't say to the other gender, they're a sexist kind of a dick.
- neutronicus 10y ago
  "Tina" is preying on the author's nascent anxieties about how her male co-workers perceive her body, clothing choices, etc. It's a form of harassment that's pretty obviously tailored to the author's gender (how many men report anxieties about being taken less seriously because they show too much skin?). The modern use of the word "sexism" includes gender-tailored harassment. It's a broader term nowadays than just "holding a belief that women are worse at X".
  - caminante 10y ago
    I also don't think sexism is limited to gender1 < gender2. That said, I think you're argument's too broad. If you want to call it harrassment, call it harrassment, but I don't get sexism. > (how many men report anxieties about being taken less seriously because they show too much skin?). How many guys wear tank tops at work? Some do. In order for your criteria to be consistent, you're saying that if a man were to wear a tank top at Uber and his boss told him not to wear a tank top, that it'd be sexist? I think that's what you're saying. If so, that's a slippery slope as it would lead to ALL dress codes being discriminatory.
    - catshirt 10y ago
      > In order for your criteria to be consistent, you're saying that if a man were to wear a tank top at Uber and his boss told him not to wear a tank top, that it'd be sexist? no... the exact opposite. it's sexist because, presumably, the manager would not try to reprimand and/or embarrass a male for a tank top. to neutronicus' broader point though, i can't imagine anyone ever making these remarks to a male at all. because there are double standards when it comes to dress and skin. not trying to get political... like, there's no social expectation for men to hide their breasts at the beach. "gender-tailored" is apt. it wouldn't even cross someones mind to say this stuff to a guy.
- randycupertino 10y ago
  I'm curious about this, too. If a guy wore a tanktop like this http://g02.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1liNdIXXXXXamXpXXq6xXFXXXs/2014-New-summer-Men-Modal-sexy-racerback-tank-top-male-regata-masculina-undershirt-loose-t-shirt.jpg http://g02.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1liNdIXXXXXamXpXXq6xXFXXXs/201.... It would be equally non-work appropriate. The office should have just implemented a dress code for everyone.
- stale2002 10y ago
  I, as a man, have literally never had my boss give me feedback on the clothes that I am wearing. That has never happened.
adrr 10y ago
It would be sexism if it was directed only at women which is not specified in the blog post. If you're meeting with another manager for a transfer, its probably a good idea not to wear a tank top both sexes included.
- MBCook 10y ago
  > It would be sexism if it was directed only at women [...] So if a manager has a department composed of 100% of one gender they can't make sexist comments about their employees' clothes because there isn't someone of the opposite gender to see if it's 'sexist'? It sounds a lot like things I've heard used as examples of sexism in lawsuits against companies before, so I'm willing to believe that it is sexist (sounds like it fits in my mind) and I believe it's what the writer was referring to in the title (whether others think it is sexism).

SolarNet 10y ago

The manager wasn't telling male workers to wear long sleeved shirts, so that's the most obvious one. It was also obviously the last straw. Often in stories like these the last straw seems pretty stupid compared to a larger problem. People have a breaking point but it's often a small thing that puts them over it, the straw that broke the camels back. Although the story doesn't spell out the gender of everyone on the team - the statistics of 11 engineers implies she could be the only female - only controlling her work behavior (where and when she can work), but not her coworkers (that they can work from home), if all her coworkers are male, is pretty sexist. And it may be indicative a deeper - and more pervasive - problem of sexism (for example, she was regularly managed differently because she was female, which sounds like the case) that was the main problem for her.

caminante 10y ago
I'm not following at all. Where does it say the manager "wasn't telling male workers to wear long sleeved shirts?" Even if so, how's that sexist? To say that something's sexist because a man gets different advice than a woman with no context is unacceptable criteria for sexism. Re: WFH, she's a junior employee (graduated in 2015) whose boss told her to "be at [her] desk to 'ensure that [she's] collaborating with the team and getting the support [she] need[s]." She's complaining about getting reprimanded for "working from home for one hour in the morning." That sounds like she was expected to be in the office and didn't clear ahead with her manager. Why was she WFH for just one hour? How's the reprimand sexism? Taking her claims at face value, she's not making a strong case for sexism.
- user5994461 10y ago
  > Taking her claims at face value, she's not making a strong case for sexism. Agree. It's "just" a common case of "bad" management.
  - SolarNet 10y ago
    I think there is a deeper problem here with HR. Uber didn't care enough to figure out whether it was sexist or not (or even care enough to do anything about it at all). That means Uber is sexist simply by not caring enough to check (regardless of whether this was or wasn't sexism). * As always a lot of caveats apply: If sexism is defined as legally culpable discrimination of a protected class (rather than looser social definitions, or even broader sociology definitions). If we take her statements at face value.