11 ms·

So... these are too heavy for use in cars etc, too low-voltage to displace Li-ion in ¿many situations?, but would last a long time? What applications, if any,

by rattray 10y ago

So... these are too heavy for use in cars etc, too low-voltage to displace Li-ion in ¿many situations?, but would last a long time? What applications, if any, would this kind of battery be useful for then?

problems 10y ago
Storage of collected solar energy perhaps?
- mark-r 10y ago
  That would depend mainly on price. I imagine at this early stage pricing would be entirely speculative, but new technologies don't usually start out cheaper than established ones.
  - Tloewald 10y ago
    If it's fundamentally sodium vs. lithium then it's going to have huge price advantages at scale.
- hwillis 10y ago
  That's a matter of cost, not size. Mass is more important than volume for cost because transport depends on the weight primarily and because fundamentally more mass means more stuff. In the end you still have to pull x tonnes out of the ground.
danm07 10y ago
I'm no expert on this, but as a consumer, I wouldn't mind having a heavier phone if it meant a longer battery life. In fact, I much prefer a device with some heft.
- galdosdi 10y ago
  It sounds like it would _not_ have longer battery life, in the sense of "how many days can I go in between having to charge" It sounds like the battery can withstand more charge cycles before getting crappy and needing replacement (eg, your phone might take 4 years instead of 2 before you have to replace the battery) -- way less useful
  - Cerium 10y ago
    Why? It seems that phones are space constrained, not weight, and this proposed battery is 3x better by space but 2.5x worse by weight. That would allow a 1 day phone to go 3 days right?
    - cmdrfred 10y ago
      If I know anything about cellphone manufactures they will simply use this tech to make the phone razor thin rather than increasing battery life.
      - thecrazyone 10y ago
        I'd like to wager there'll be all kinds of phones trying to discover what the customer wants. I'm guessing, for the majority, it'll be neither of the extremes - heavy with max battery, or light weight with min battery - but somewhere in between those extremes
    - PhasmaFelis 10y ago
      Even "space constrained" is arguable, depending on the context. We've had powerful, feature-packed phones no taller/wider than the screen and thin enough to fit in a tight pocket for years, and that's all anyone reasonably needs. But developers and gadgetphiles fetishize thinness to the point that devs are now actually removing important features, like headphone jacks and (on Android) removable batteries, to squeeze out a few more useless millimeters. As long as those priorities remain, any power-per-volume improvements will be twisted around to serve pointless shrinkage rather than actually improving anything.
      - Retric 10y ago
        Some of this relates to the size of the phone in a case which add a lot of bulk and seem overly popular. But, another factor is larger phones need to be very thin to be comfortable in many pockets.
        10y ago
- batmansmk 10y ago
  A digital watch would benefit from those batteries. Smaller watch.
hwillis 10y ago
Laptops, maybe? The voltage is too low for phones, as is the power. That's why solid state batteries aren't used yet, they (non-research) can't match the power that phones and computers require.
Tloewald 10y ago
Voltage is irrelevant. You can put batteries in series.
- hwillis 10y ago
  It's not; it has practical consequences. Everything in a phone runs at a spectacularly low voltage compared to most electronics because the battery only has one cell. At small sizes it's simply not practical to make more cells.
  - Tloewald 10y ago
    Smart phones typically run lower than 3.7V so it's still not a big deal. The weight is a possible show stopper for cars but probably not smart phones (where size trumps weight) and of course they may be able to get the weight down by some kind of chemistry or materials magic (glass foam?)
    - hwillis 10y ago
      Phones turn off automatically if the battery dips below 3 V, and this battery tops out at 2.7 V. It's totally possible to make it work, it just isn't terribly simple. As for chemistry and glass foam, the voltage of a cell is determined by the electronegativity of the reaction in the battery. With lithium, it can never be very much above 5 V- atoms just don't pull on each other that hard. This already uses lithium, and the chemistry won't be able to improve much bast 2.5 V. For any given chemistry, you can't increase the voltage without putting cells in series, because the atoms decide the voltage. Any tweaks to construction, electrolyte etc. can only increase the current, by giving it more places to flow.
      - lightedman 10y ago
        "It's totally possible to make it work, it just isn't terribly simple." Please, it's as simple as a three-component boost converter - one IC and two resistors. Same thing I use to bump 1.2V up to 3.6Vto run LEDs. It takes zero space (7x7mm total.)
mattnewton 10y ago
Perhaps sationary power storage, like tesla's power wall, or an uninterruptible server power supply.
korethr 10y ago
I'm curious if these would work well in uninterruptible power supplies (whether under your desk or in the electrical room in your datacenter). As I understand, the potential explosive danger of Li-ion batteries makes them unfeasible for UPS applications due to the costs of meeting the hazmat regulations upon them, in addition to higher cost of lithium itself. If this solid state battery can be handled much safer than Li-ion batteries, and be made significantly cheaper, then perhaps we'll start seeing them in applications where LA batteries are usually used.
- ScottBurson 10y ago
  Excellent point. The long cycle life will make them very attractive, and weight is not a problem for a stationary application.
- tlrobinson 10y ago
  Do LiFePO4 batteries have the same hazmat issue, or are they just too expensive? I know they don't have the thermal runaway issue other Li-ion battery chemistries have.
benjaminjackman 10y ago
Anywhere you need a small but longer lasting battery and don't care about mass. The primary issue with a larger mass is accelerating and decelerating it. However with the larger capacity, it would be less efficient but perhaps could still lead to longer range in the car if the extra energy stored overcomes the added cost of moving it around. Probably not a good thing but could be useful then in something like an electric race car or something. Submersibles (which may not care about weight due to ballast anyhow), Batteries for Solar Storage (price dependent likely bad at first), Pacemakers, Hearing aids, once it's invented if robotics outpace man engineered human biology, maybe smart blood. Perhaps also Nanobots, Active 3d Glasses, Cell phones, Laptops, Tablets, Smart Watches that go for smaller space vs weight. Outside of that perhaps home appliances like a portable bread machine, or a hand-held wireless electric apple peeler, very small things like a rock that has a hidden microphone / camera in it for spycraft, perhaps a heated travel mug to keep your cider warm, or an electric bowl for keeping great-gravy from coagulating on the dining room table, maybe a warm pie plate because who doesn't like warm cherry pie? Perhaps some sort of autonomous mud tunneling microbots, rather have a large boring machine just let these small guys go and be patient and in a decade or two you'll have your tunnel, electric candles in churches could cut down on unnecessary wax use, and helmet lamps used for stuff like lead mining could also find a use (added neck strain not withstanding). Not sure if the added weight would be too much for a target-practice duck that swam around in a lake or not, but if not, that might be the right answer.
- hwillis 10y ago
  >The primary issue with a larger mass is accelerating and decelerating it It's actually friction, for electric cars. Regen is pretty effective at recapturing acceleration, so the energy lost in the wheels is the biggest factor.
  - sigmaprimus 10y ago
    Wouldn't there also be loss due to "rate of change of acceleration" or "Jerk" of which mass may have an effect? The same reason city driving is less efficient?
toomuchtodo 10y ago
Stationary utility scale energy storage. Your solar and wind generation facilities now go to 100% capacity factor.
sqeaky 10y ago
I do not care how much about the weight of the batteries in my basement, as long as they are charged by the solar cells on my roof.
aperrien 10y ago
Would this type of battery be useful for grid storage?
bernardlunn 10y ago
Mobile phones
ftlio 10y ago
Sensors with Bluetooth / low power wifi. Lithium Ion batteries work for 5 years for our use case. If this improves that, that's less replacement.
pyoung 10y ago
Maybe electric bikes and mopeds/scooters? Space seems to be a bigger issue for those than cars. And in the early days (and in some cases today) lead acid batteries were used. Lead acid had similar weight issues, but are much worse in terms of size and power, so seems like if folks were able to make that work, then a bike or scooter with this solid state battery could work. I went on amazon to look at some product weights. There is an e-bike battery that weighs 6.5 lbs[1], and an e-bike that claims to have a shipping weight of 60 lbs[2]. So assuming 3x battery weight for roughly the same power, that means an extra battery weight of 13 lbs and a total bike weight of 73 lbs for a battery that could possibly fit in the frame (as opposed to be mounted on the down tube). So that is definitely getting on the heavy side for a bike but the bike in question is also relatively 'over-powered' as far as e-bikes go (25 mi self-powered range, 350 watt motor). A lot of the sleeker/higher end e-bikes are 'pedal-assist only' and already hide the battery in the frame. These bikes can get in the sub 40 lb range, and probably use 1/2 the battery that the one in the link does. So an extra 10-15 lbs is probably manageable and it would result in a bit more range while still being able to hide the battery in the frame (assuming a li-ion battery weight of ~3lbs, you would add an extra 6lbs to 'break even', or an extra 15 to double the power). For scooters/mopeds, the math probably works out even better, as these are already over 100 lbs, and an extra 30-40 lbs won't really matter that much. And if you want to build a electric scooter or motorcycle that can go highway speeds, that extra weight can help with stability. [1] https://www.amazon.com/36V-11AH-Li-ion-E-Bike-Battery/dp/B0118BJX7U https://www.amazon.com/36V-11AH-Li-ion-E-Bike-Battery/dp/B01... [2] https://www.amazon.com/Addmotor-HITHOT-Electric-Bicycle-Suspension/dp/B01BGHRVDY https://www.amazon.com/Addmotor-HITHOT-Electric-Bicycle-Susp...

by rattray 10y ago

problems 10y ago

Storage of collected solar energy perhaps?

mark-r 10y ago
That would depend mainly on price. I imagine at this early stage pricing would be entirely speculative, but new technologies don't usually start out cheaper than established ones.
- Tloewald 10y ago
  If it's fundamentally sodium vs. lithium then it's going to have huge price advantages at scale.
hwillis 10y ago
That's a matter of cost, not size. Mass is more important than volume for cost because transport depends on the weight primarily and because fundamentally more mass means more stuff. In the end you still have to pull x tonnes out of the ground.

danm07 10y ago

I'm no expert on this, but as a consumer, I wouldn't mind having a heavier phone if it meant a longer battery life. In fact, I much prefer a device with some heft.

galdosdi 10y ago
It sounds like it would _not_ have longer battery life, in the sense of "how many days can I go in between having to charge" It sounds like the battery can withstand more charge cycles before getting crappy and needing replacement (eg, your phone might take 4 years instead of 2 before you have to replace the battery) -- way less useful
- Cerium 10y ago
  Why? It seems that phones are space constrained, not weight, and this proposed battery is 3x better by space but 2.5x worse by weight. That would allow a 1 day phone to go 3 days right?
  - cmdrfred 10y ago
    If I know anything about cellphone manufactures they will simply use this tech to make the phone razor thin rather than increasing battery life.
    - thecrazyone 10y ago
      I'd like to wager there'll be all kinds of phones trying to discover what the customer wants. I'm guessing, for the majority, it'll be neither of the extremes - heavy with max battery, or light weight with min battery - but somewhere in between those extremes
  - PhasmaFelis 10y ago
    Even "space constrained" is arguable, depending on the context. We've had powerful, feature-packed phones no taller/wider than the screen and thin enough to fit in a tight pocket for years, and that's all anyone reasonably needs. But developers and gadgetphiles fetishize thinness to the point that devs are now actually removing important features, like headphone jacks and (on Android) removable batteries, to squeeze out a few more useless millimeters. As long as those priorities remain, any power-per-volume improvements will be twisted around to serve pointless shrinkage rather than actually improving anything.
    - Retric 10y ago
      Some of this relates to the size of the phone in a case which add a lot of bulk and seem overly popular. But, another factor is larger phones need to be very thin to be comfortable in many pockets.
      - 10y ago
batmansmk 10y ago
A digital watch would benefit from those batteries. Smaller watch.

hwillis 10y ago

Laptops, maybe? The voltage is too low for phones, as is the power. That's why solid state batteries aren't used yet, they (non-research) can't match the power that phones and computers require.

Tloewald 10y ago

Voltage is irrelevant. You can put batteries in series.

hwillis 10y ago
It's not; it has practical consequences. Everything in a phone runs at a spectacularly low voltage compared to most electronics because the battery only has one cell. At small sizes it's simply not practical to make more cells.
- Tloewald 10y ago
  Smart phones typically run lower than 3.7V so it's still not a big deal. The weight is a possible show stopper for cars but probably not smart phones (where size trumps weight) and of course they may be able to get the weight down by some kind of chemistry or materials magic (glass foam?)
  - hwillis 10y ago
    Phones turn off automatically if the battery dips below 3 V, and this battery tops out at 2.7 V. It's totally possible to make it work, it just isn't terribly simple. As for chemistry and glass foam, the voltage of a cell is determined by the electronegativity of the reaction in the battery. With lithium, it can never be very much above 5 V- atoms just don't pull on each other that hard. This already uses lithium, and the chemistry won't be able to improve much bast 2.5 V. For any given chemistry, you can't increase the voltage without putting cells in series, because the atoms decide the voltage. Any tweaks to construction, electrolyte etc. can only increase the current, by giving it more places to flow.
    - lightedman 10y ago
      "It's totally possible to make it work, it just isn't terribly simple." Please, it's as simple as a three-component boost converter - one IC and two resistors. Same thing I use to bump 1.2V up to 3.6Vto run LEDs. It takes zero space (7x7mm total.)

mattnewton 10y ago

Perhaps sationary power storage, like tesla's power wall, or an uninterruptible server power supply.

korethr 10y ago

I'm curious if these would work well in uninterruptible power supplies (whether under your desk or in the electrical room in your datacenter). As I understand, the potential explosive danger of Li-ion batteries makes them unfeasible for UPS applications due to the costs of meeting the hazmat regulations upon them, in addition to higher cost of lithium itself. If this solid state battery can be handled much safer than Li-ion batteries, and be made significantly cheaper, then perhaps we'll start seeing them in applications where LA batteries are usually used.

ScottBurson 10y ago
Excellent point. The long cycle life will make them very attractive, and weight is not a problem for a stationary application.
tlrobinson 10y ago
Do LiFePO4 batteries have the same hazmat issue, or are they just too expensive? I know they don't have the thermal runaway issue other Li-ion battery chemistries have.

benjaminjackman 10y ago

Anywhere you need a small but longer lasting battery and don't care about mass. The primary issue with a larger mass is accelerating and decelerating it. However with the larger capacity, it would be less efficient but perhaps could still lead to longer range in the car if the extra energy stored overcomes the added cost of moving it around. Probably not a good thing but could be useful then in something like an electric race car or something. Submersibles (which may not care about weight due to ballast anyhow), Batteries for Solar Storage (price dependent likely bad at first), Pacemakers, Hearing aids, once it's invented if robotics outpace man engineered human biology, maybe smart blood. Perhaps also Nanobots, Active 3d Glasses, Cell phones, Laptops, Tablets, Smart Watches that go for smaller space vs weight. Outside of that perhaps home appliances like a portable bread machine, or a hand-held wireless electric apple peeler, very small things like a rock that has a hidden microphone / camera in it for spycraft, perhaps a heated travel mug to keep your cider warm, or an electric bowl for keeping great-gravy from coagulating on the dining room table, maybe a warm pie plate because who doesn't like warm cherry pie? Perhaps some sort of autonomous mud tunneling microbots, rather have a large boring machine just let these small guys go and be patient and in a decade or two you'll have your tunnel, electric candles in churches could cut down on unnecessary wax use, and helmet lamps used for stuff like lead mining could also find a use (added neck strain not withstanding). Not sure if the added weight would be too much for a target-practice duck that swam around in a lake or not, but if not, that might be the right answer.

hwillis 10y ago
>The primary issue with a larger mass is accelerating and decelerating it It's actually friction, for electric cars. Regen is pretty effective at recapturing acceleration, so the energy lost in the wheels is the biggest factor.
- sigmaprimus 10y ago
  Wouldn't there also be loss due to "rate of change of acceleration" or "Jerk" of which mass may have an effect? The same reason city driving is less efficient?

toomuchtodo 10y ago

Stationary utility scale energy storage. Your solar and wind generation facilities now go to 100% capacity factor.

sqeaky 10y ago

I do not care how much about the weight of the batteries in my basement, as long as they are charged by the solar cells on my roof.

aperrien 10y ago

Would this type of battery be useful for grid storage?

bernardlunn 10y ago

Mobile phones

ftlio 10y ago

Sensors with Bluetooth / low power wifi. Lithium Ion batteries work for 5 years for our use case. If this improves that, that's less replacement.

pyoung 10y ago

Maybe electric bikes and mopeds/scooters? Space seems to be a bigger issue for those than cars. And in the early days (and in some cases today) lead acid batteries were used. Lead acid had similar weight issues, but are much worse in terms of size and power, so seems like if folks were able to make that work, then a bike or scooter with this solid state battery could work. I went on amazon to look at some product weights. There is an e-bike battery that weighs 6.5 lbs[1], and an e-bike that claims to have a shipping weight of 60 lbs[2]. So assuming 3x battery weight for roughly the same power, that means an extra battery weight of 13 lbs and a total bike weight of 73 lbs for a battery that could possibly fit in the frame (as opposed to be mounted on the down tube). So that is definitely getting on the heavy side for a bike but the bike in question is also relatively 'over-powered' as far as e-bikes go (25 mi self-powered range, 350 watt motor). A lot of the sleeker/higher end e-bikes are 'pedal-assist only' and already hide the battery in the frame. These bikes can get in the sub 40 lb range, and probably use 1/2 the battery that the one in the link does. So an extra 10-15 lbs is probably manageable and it would result in a bit more range while still being able to hide the battery in the frame (assuming a li-ion battery weight of ~3lbs, you would add an extra 6lbs to 'break even', or an extra 15 to double the power). For scooters/mopeds, the math probably works out even better, as these are already over 100 lbs, and an extra 30-40 lbs won't really matter that much. And if you want to build a electric scooter or motorcycle that can go highway speeds, that extra weight can help with stability. [1] https://www.amazon.com/36V-11AH-Li-ion-E-Bike-Battery/dp/B0118BJX7U https://www.amazon.com/36V-11AH-Li-ion-E-Bike-Battery/dp/B01... [2] https://www.amazon.com/Addmotor-HITHOT-Electric-Bicycle-Suspension/dp/B01BGHRVDY https://www.amazon.com/Addmotor-HITHOT-Electric-Bicycle-Susp...