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>Besides, men outnumber women in tech by a very large margin. It's on our shoulders to help women fight back. Strength in numbers is a thing, and having men who

by Arizhel 10y ago

>Besides, men outnumber women in tech by a very large margin. It's on our shoulders to help women fight back. Strength in numbers is a thing, and having men who speak up on their own, and who support and reinforce women who come forward can only a be a good thing. Yes, but the problem is that most men in tech these days are "brogrammers" who approve of this behavior and engage in it themselves. Tech is no longer the domain of shy, introverted men who just liked to play with technology, like back in the 80s. Now it's full of misogynistic frat dudes. The change started during the dot-com boom, and has only gotten worse since then.

TorKlingberg 10y ago
I really don't think misogyny or harassment is connected to nerdy-ness or introversion/extroversion, in either direction. The methods probably very, but I don't think any personality type is free of the proverbial bad eggs.
- Arizhel 10y ago
  >I really don't think misogyny or harassment is connected to nerdy-ness or introversion/extroversion, in either direction. I completely disagree. Stereotypically nerdy, shy, introverted men are not going to be extremely aggressive towards women in social settings; that's why they stereotypically have such a hard time getting dates: they're not even comfortable talking to women. They're certainly not going to be touching them inappropriately, making sexual comments and innuendo, etc. The men that stereotypically do that are like the guys who join frats in college and spend a lot of time in drunken parties. These are not introverts, they're extroverts. These stories about Uber and other such places are not talking about quiet male programmers occasionally talking about something inappropriate at work (like anime porn or something) and being overheard by women, these stories are about managers (and executives) doing grossly inappropriate and harassing things directly to women, usually women they supervise. Shy, nerdy men do not become "high performing" managers (the kind the CEO loves to go drinking with); that's clearly the domain of extroverts. And yes, every personality type has bad eggs, as there's exceptions for everything, but I'm talking in generalities here. But also importantly, it's my contention that even the rank-and-file engineers and programmers these days are more like the frat-bro stereotype, so they're not going to be any help, they're part of the problem and why this company culture thrives in Silicon Valley these days.
  - xapata 10y ago
    People behave differently in different contexts, to the extent of appearing to have entirely different personalities. You might be surprised at what an otherwise shy, nice person might type in a semi-private chat room.
  - dosgonlogs 10y ago
    what in the actual? Let's not reinforce dim-witted stereotypes. There are all kinds of people. I have met the Socially Awkward, introverted, nerdy, absolute jerk prick asshole programmer as well. The type that attempts to anonymously create hentai comics of female coworkers. Nerdy men can and do become "High Performing Managers" they just use email more.
    - flamedoge 10y ago
      what the actual. >anonymously create hentai comics of female coworkers who goes out of their way to do that
      - dosgonlogs 10y ago
        People who revel in making other people feel creeped out and violated.
- enraged_camel 10y ago
  >>I really don't think misogyny or harassment is connected to nerdy-ness or introversion/extroversion, in either direction. When was the last time you witnessed an introverted/nerdy person proposition a coworker, or even a female friend, for sex? Or even a date? Introverts by definition aren't socially aggressive. They also tend to not hang out with socially aggressive people, from whom they could learn such attitudes.
  - in_cahoots 10y ago
    That's not the definition of introvert at all, you're using it as a proxy to mean shy or even socially awkward. Introverts have sex and date too. Using your logic (which I don't necessarily agree with) I could argue that they are more likely to feel frustrated with a lack of options, and to abuse any power they do have. Anecdotally, most of the harassment I have seen (in academia at least) has come from introverts -- things like staring at a colleague's chest, awkward comments that bring up a colleagues femininity / looks / relationship status / childbearing status, and drunken propositions at conferences. It's not as malicious as the examples from Uber as most of the time the man can claim to be unaware that his actions were making the woman uncomfortable, but it persists nevertheless.
    - Arizhel 10y ago
      >That's not the definition of introvert at all, you're using it as a proxy to mean shy or even socially awkward. Introverts have sex and date too. Huh? Don't be ridiculous: shy and socially awkward people have sex and date too. Just not as much as people who aren't socially awkward or shy, because they obviously have a more difficult time establishing a relationship. But it's not like they never do (well maybe some of them never do...). You have a good point about some bad behavior coming from introverts (staring at chests, drunken propositions), but it's my allegation that this is very different from the harassment like we're seeing at places like Uber, where there's a rampant culture of harassment, and it's right out in the open. The introvert harassment you talk about is more individual and less obvious, not something egged on and cheered by the group. And as you point out, the introvert actions are defended by claiming ignorance ("I didn't know it'd make her uncomfortable"), whereas the Uber actions are at another level entirely (managers openly groping female employees--check out today's big news about Kay and Jared jewelers for stuff that makes even Uber look like saints).
matthewmacleod 10y ago
Yes, but the problem is that most men in tech these days are "brogrammers" who approve of this behavior and engage in it themselves. Citation needed. I haven't yet, in a decade in the tech industry, worked with anybody who would act in this way, to the best of my knowledge. That said, I work in London and not SV, so I can't say if the culture is different. I know for a fact that it wouldn't be tolerated for a second anywhere I've worked.
- Arizhel 10y ago
  >That said, I work in London and not SV, so I can't say if the culture is different. Yeah, that's your problem right there. I probably should have specified that this is largely a SV/USA problem. The work culture in the UK is very different from over here. Even here in the US, it's rather different by region; I don't think it's remotely as bad on the east coast.
  - prophetjohn 10y ago
    Never seen anything like this in NYC
    - api 10y ago
      Nor in Boston or the Los Angeles / Orange County area. I'm willing to believe it though. Far, far too many stories. I've also definitely seen it online in spades.
      - jakelazaroff 10y ago
        Replying to this comment, but this is in response to all the ancestors who have said they "haven't seen this in X area": If you're a man (or white, etc) then it makes sense that you don't see this firsthand. It doesn't happen to you. Not all workplace harassment is as egregious or public as the harassment in this article. I absolutely don't believe that this problem mainly affects the US.
        10y ago
dang 10y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13748377 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13748377 and marked it off-topic.

by Arizhel 10y ago

TorKlingberg 10y ago

I really don't think misogyny or harassment is connected to nerdy-ness or introversion/extroversion, in either direction. The methods probably very, but I don't think any personality type is free of the proverbial bad eggs.

Arizhel 10y ago
>I really don't think misogyny or harassment is connected to nerdy-ness or introversion/extroversion, in either direction. I completely disagree. Stereotypically nerdy, shy, introverted men are not going to be extremely aggressive towards women in social settings; that's why they stereotypically have such a hard time getting dates: they're not even comfortable talking to women. They're certainly not going to be touching them inappropriately, making sexual comments and innuendo, etc. The men that stereotypically do that are like the guys who join frats in college and spend a lot of time in drunken parties. These are not introverts, they're extroverts. These stories about Uber and other such places are not talking about quiet male programmers occasionally talking about something inappropriate at work (like anime porn or something) and being overheard by women, these stories are about managers (and executives) doing grossly inappropriate and harassing things directly to women, usually women they supervise. Shy, nerdy men do not become "high performing" managers (the kind the CEO loves to go drinking with); that's clearly the domain of extroverts. And yes, every personality type has bad eggs, as there's exceptions for everything, but I'm talking in generalities here. But also importantly, it's my contention that even the rank-and-file engineers and programmers these days are more like the frat-bro stereotype, so they're not going to be any help, they're part of the problem and why this company culture thrives in Silicon Valley these days.
- xapata 10y ago
  People behave differently in different contexts, to the extent of appearing to have entirely different personalities. You might be surprised at what an otherwise shy, nice person might type in a semi-private chat room.
- dosgonlogs 10y ago
  what in the actual? Let's not reinforce dim-witted stereotypes. There are all kinds of people. I have met the Socially Awkward, introverted, nerdy, absolute jerk prick asshole programmer as well. The type that attempts to anonymously create hentai comics of female coworkers. Nerdy men can and do become "High Performing Managers" they just use email more.
  - flamedoge 10y ago
    what the actual. >anonymously create hentai comics of female coworkers who goes out of their way to do that
    - dosgonlogs 10y ago
      People who revel in making other people feel creeped out and violated.
enraged_camel 10y ago
>>I really don't think misogyny or harassment is connected to nerdy-ness or introversion/extroversion, in either direction. When was the last time you witnessed an introverted/nerdy person proposition a coworker, or even a female friend, for sex? Or even a date? Introverts by definition aren't socially aggressive. They also tend to not hang out with socially aggressive people, from whom they could learn such attitudes.
- in_cahoots 10y ago
  That's not the definition of introvert at all, you're using it as a proxy to mean shy or even socially awkward. Introverts have sex and date too. Using your logic (which I don't necessarily agree with) I could argue that they are more likely to feel frustrated with a lack of options, and to abuse any power they do have. Anecdotally, most of the harassment I have seen (in academia at least) has come from introverts -- things like staring at a colleague's chest, awkward comments that bring up a colleagues femininity / looks / relationship status / childbearing status, and drunken propositions at conferences. It's not as malicious as the examples from Uber as most of the time the man can claim to be unaware that his actions were making the woman uncomfortable, but it persists nevertheless.
  - Arizhel 10y ago
    >That's not the definition of introvert at all, you're using it as a proxy to mean shy or even socially awkward. Introverts have sex and date too. Huh? Don't be ridiculous: shy and socially awkward people have sex and date too. Just not as much as people who aren't socially awkward or shy, because they obviously have a more difficult time establishing a relationship. But it's not like they never do (well maybe some of them never do...). You have a good point about some bad behavior coming from introverts (staring at chests, drunken propositions), but it's my allegation that this is very different from the harassment like we're seeing at places like Uber, where there's a rampant culture of harassment, and it's right out in the open. The introvert harassment you talk about is more individual and less obvious, not something egged on and cheered by the group. And as you point out, the introvert actions are defended by claiming ignorance ("I didn't know it'd make her uncomfortable"), whereas the Uber actions are at another level entirely (managers openly groping female employees--check out today's big news about Kay and Jared jewelers for stuff that makes even Uber look like saints).

matthewmacleod 10y ago

Yes, but the problem is that most men in tech these days are "brogrammers" who approve of this behavior and engage in it themselves. Citation needed. I haven't yet, in a decade in the tech industry, worked with anybody who would act in this way, to the best of my knowledge. That said, I work in London and not SV, so I can't say if the culture is different. I know for a fact that it wouldn't be tolerated for a second anywhere I've worked.

Arizhel 10y ago
>That said, I work in London and not SV, so I can't say if the culture is different. Yeah, that's your problem right there. I probably should have specified that this is largely a SV/USA problem. The work culture in the UK is very different from over here. Even here in the US, it's rather different by region; I don't think it's remotely as bad on the east coast.
- prophetjohn 10y ago
  Never seen anything like this in NYC
  - api 10y ago
    Nor in Boston or the Los Angeles / Orange County area. I'm willing to believe it though. Far, far too many stories. I've also definitely seen it online in spades.
    - jakelazaroff 10y ago
      Replying to this comment, but this is in response to all the ancestors who have said they "haven't seen this in X area": If you're a man (or white, etc) then it makes sense that you don't see this firsthand. It doesn't happen to you. Not all workplace harassment is as egregious or public as the harassment in this article. I absolutely don't believe that this problem mainly affects the US.
      - 10y ago

dang 10y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13748377 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13748377 and marked it off-topic.