5 ms·

Wow I think we all need to step back and chill when it comes to swears. It's actually a really brilliant book in its current form, why would you change it for k

Wow I think we all need to step back and chill when it comes to swears. It's actually a really brilliant book in its current form, why would you change it for kids for the sake of a few minor swear words that the kids probably know better than you anyways.

frostirosti 10y ago
It's hard playing moral arbiter. On the one hand, you want to make it accessible to as many students as possible as well as teach them the core of what you want. You could probably replace much of the cursing without changing the underlying narrative. But I also totally understand your point. Why is every marvel movie jam packed with gratuitous violence. To the point where fighting is the entire point of the narrative. Characters will die in fantastic ways but is still equally traumatizing. But portraying love or swearing is too adult for children. Makes no sense to me.
- libeclipse 10y ago
  Yeah, I see what you mean. But while the profanity probably could be removed, I think it would really take something from the character. The swears give the story a real, raw feel somehow -- they really make you feel as if it's actually happening. He talks like the rest of us, not like a robot.
  - bostonpete 10y ago
    There are plenty of people who don't really swear though. If Weir was cool with the changes, he must've felt like the profanity wasn't crucial to the story.
    - libeclipse 10y ago
      Well it could be argued that the author's intention is no more correct than the audience's interpretation.
- aanm1988 10y ago
  > On the one hand, you want to make it accessible to as many students as possible as well as teach them the core of what you want Then use it. These kids aren't going to be damaged by hearing the word fuck.
  - frostirosti 10y ago
    see the second part
alistairSH 10y ago
Agreed. I assume as a classroom tool, this book would be appealing to early high school (8/9 grade). By that age, a student ought to be capable of reading a swear word or two in context without being injured.
- apetresc 10y ago
  To be fair, it's a bit more than just "a swear word or two in context". Here are literally THE FIRST THREE LINES of the book: > I'm pretty much fucked. > That's my considered opinion. > Fucked. Trust me, you start your lesson in an 8th grade classroom with that, and you've lost fifteen minutes to giggles.
  - alistairSH 10y ago
    Ha! I didn't remember that. But, hopefully they aren't reading to each other in the middle of science class. I imagined the book would be homework or read in silence.
mikeash 10y ago
I agree with you, but this is the reality of it. I'd much rather kids have a censored version of this book than not have it at all, which is the choice we actually have given how most schools are run. And it's not like the swearing is in any way essential to the work. You're not destroying a great work of literature by replacing "fuck" with "crap." So while I agree we shouldn't be so uptight about swears, I'd say we also shouldn't be so uptight about removing them here.
- abandonliberty 10y ago
  First they came for the swears . . . We should be very concerned about a precedent where we adapt or censor potentially objectionable content. Next is content not in alignment with the schools ideologies or politics, for what is essential to a work? These aren't abstract tin-foil hat concerns either: In 1982 Texas banned a geography textbook for mentioning evolution [1]. Publishers are financially incentivized to publish. These mechanisms enable those in power to control the information presented to children and students to suit their agendas (even while their own children attend private schools not subject to their decisions). >According to Time magazine, the list of the most banned books of all time include . . . “Brave New World,” by Aldous Huxley; “1984,” by George Orwell We should be pretty uptight about censorship. https://ncse.com/cej/3/4/censorship-evolution-texas https://ncse.com/cej/3/4/censorship-evolution-texas https://www.webjunction.org/documents/webjunction/Censorship_in_Schools_Learning_Speaking_and_Thinking_Freely_The_First_Amendment_in_Schools.html https://www.webjunction.org/documents/webjunction/Censorship... https://www.lehigh.edu/~infirst/bookcensorship.html https://www.lehigh.edu/~infirst/bookcensorship.html
  - mikeash 10y ago
    This is a standard slippery slope argument. Is there evidence that the slope is actually slippery? Do we know that removing swear words leads to ideological censorship?
    - abandonliberty 10y ago
      Sufficient evidence was presented to demonstrate a non-fallacious usage of the slippery slope argument. Simply because it's a slippery slope argument doesn't make it fallacious - though such accusations are very good at silencing. Perhaps you can provide an example where increases in censorship do not make it easier for the types of problems listed above to occur, a place where the misuse of power is unheard of. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope#Non-fallacious_usage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope#Non-fallacious_...
stcredzero 10y ago
Eric Idle should now write an entire Math textbook series based on the word Fuck. Really, you could just have them be comedic supplemental material to another textbook. I bet a talented teacher could use such material to really liven up a math class. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jixxYx9fklM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jixxYx9fklM (For those who don't know, writing songs based on Fuck has kind of become one of Eric Idle's things.)
djrogers 10y ago
> for the sake of a few minor swear words There are two F-bombs in the opening sentences, and over 160 swear words throughout. I'm not cool with my 8 year old walking around dropping F-bombs, and I'm not sure why you think it's your place to tell me I should be... I can't wait for my son to read this book, but in it's original form it was completely inappropriate for him. I'm glad to hear this is available now - it's going on the Kindle soon.
- EdwardCoffin 10y ago
  They are talking about eighth-graders, not eight-year-olds.
hrayr 10y ago
The swearing adds some color to the book, but it definitely doesn't take away from the content. I'm OK with this tradeoff as long as it becomes more accessible to students.
jbrantly 10y ago
Totally agree. I have kids, and the book would certainly be inappropriate for them now. That said, the simple solution is to wait until they're old enough before exposing it to them instead of attempting to dilute the book.
tootie 10y ago
"profanity and obscenity entitle people who don't want unpleasant information to close their ears and eyes to you." - Kurt Vonnegut So long as some parents would be upset or uncomfortable it would limit the reach of a very important story. I also think that while the language lends authenticity, it's not at all necessary to the story.

frostirosti 10y ago

It's hard playing moral arbiter. On the one hand, you want to make it accessible to as many students as possible as well as teach them the core of what you want. You could probably replace much of the cursing without changing the underlying narrative. But I also totally understand your point. Why is every marvel movie jam packed with gratuitous violence. To the point where fighting is the entire point of the narrative. Characters will die in fantastic ways but is still equally traumatizing. But portraying love or swearing is too adult for children. Makes no sense to me.

libeclipse 10y ago
Yeah, I see what you mean. But while the profanity probably could be removed, I think it would really take something from the character. The swears give the story a real, raw feel somehow -- they really make you feel as if it's actually happening. He talks like the rest of us, not like a robot.
- bostonpete 10y ago
  There are plenty of people who don't really swear though. If Weir was cool with the changes, he must've felt like the profanity wasn't crucial to the story.
  - libeclipse 10y ago
    Well it could be argued that the author's intention is no more correct than the audience's interpretation.
aanm1988 10y ago
> On the one hand, you want to make it accessible to as many students as possible as well as teach them the core of what you want Then use it. These kids aren't going to be damaged by hearing the word fuck.
- frostirosti 10y ago
  see the second part

alistairSH 10y ago

Agreed. I assume as a classroom tool, this book would be appealing to early high school (8/9 grade). By that age, a student ought to be capable of reading a swear word or two in context without being injured.

apetresc 10y ago
To be fair, it's a bit more than just "a swear word or two in context". Here are literally THE FIRST THREE LINES of the book: > I'm pretty much fucked. > That's my considered opinion. > Fucked. Trust me, you start your lesson in an 8th grade classroom with that, and you've lost fifteen minutes to giggles.
- alistairSH 10y ago
  Ha! I didn't remember that. But, hopefully they aren't reading to each other in the middle of science class. I imagined the book would be homework or read in silence.

mikeash 10y ago

I agree with you, but this is the reality of it. I'd much rather kids have a censored version of this book than not have it at all, which is the choice we actually have given how most schools are run. And it's not like the swearing is in any way essential to the work. You're not destroying a great work of literature by replacing "fuck" with "crap." So while I agree we shouldn't be so uptight about swears, I'd say we also shouldn't be so uptight about removing them here.

abandonliberty 10y ago
First they came for the swears . . . We should be very concerned about a precedent where we adapt or censor potentially objectionable content. Next is content not in alignment with the schools ideologies or politics, for what is essential to a work? These aren't abstract tin-foil hat concerns either: In 1982 Texas banned a geography textbook for mentioning evolution [1]. Publishers are financially incentivized to publish. These mechanisms enable those in power to control the information presented to children and students to suit their agendas (even while their own children attend private schools not subject to their decisions). >According to Time magazine, the list of the most banned books of all time include . . . “Brave New World,” by Aldous Huxley; “1984,” by George Orwell We should be pretty uptight about censorship. https://ncse.com/cej/3/4/censorship-evolution-texas https://ncse.com/cej/3/4/censorship-evolution-texas https://www.webjunction.org/documents/webjunction/Censorship_in_Schools_Learning_Speaking_and_Thinking_Freely_The_First_Amendment_in_Schools.html https://www.webjunction.org/documents/webjunction/Censorship... https://www.lehigh.edu/~infirst/bookcensorship.html https://www.lehigh.edu/~infirst/bookcensorship.html
- mikeash 10y ago
  This is a standard slippery slope argument. Is there evidence that the slope is actually slippery? Do we know that removing swear words leads to ideological censorship?
  - abandonliberty 10y ago
    Sufficient evidence was presented to demonstrate a non-fallacious usage of the slippery slope argument. Simply because it's a slippery slope argument doesn't make it fallacious - though such accusations are very good at silencing. Perhaps you can provide an example where increases in censorship do not make it easier for the types of problems listed above to occur, a place where the misuse of power is unheard of. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope#Non-fallacious_usage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope#Non-fallacious_...

stcredzero 10y ago

Eric Idle should now write an entire Math textbook series based on the word Fuck. Really, you could just have them be comedic supplemental material to another textbook. I bet a talented teacher could use such material to really liven up a math class. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jixxYx9fklM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jixxYx9fklM (For those who don't know, writing songs based on Fuck has kind of become one of Eric Idle's things.)

djrogers 10y ago

> for the sake of a few minor swear words There are two F-bombs in the opening sentences, and over 160 swear words throughout. I'm not cool with my 8 year old walking around dropping F-bombs, and I'm not sure why you think it's your place to tell me I should be... I can't wait for my son to read this book, but in it's original form it was completely inappropriate for him. I'm glad to hear this is available now - it's going on the Kindle soon.

EdwardCoffin 10y ago
They are talking about eighth-graders, not eight-year-olds.

hrayr 10y ago

The swearing adds some color to the book, but it definitely doesn't take away from the content. I'm OK with this tradeoff as long as it becomes more accessible to students.

jbrantly 10y ago

Totally agree. I have kids, and the book would certainly be inappropriate for them now. That said, the simple solution is to wait until they're old enough before exposing it to them instead of attempting to dilute the book.

tootie 10y ago

"profanity and obscenity entitle people who don't want unpleasant information to close their ears and eyes to you." - Kurt Vonnegut So long as some parents would be upset or uncomfortable it would limit the reach of a very important story. I also think that while the language lends authenticity, it's not at all necessary to the story.