6 ms·

Shouldn't a self-driving car always be passively looking for red lights? I mean, take a school bus for instance. They don't have permanent red-light fixtures,

Shouldn't a self-driving car always be passively looking for red lights? I mean, take a school bus for instance. They don't have permanent red-light fixtures, but if you're behind them they could enable the red light sign at any moment. If the self-driving car isn't always looking wouldn't that be an issue?

mikeash 10y ago
Even normal stoplights can be added or removed. If a car needs an accurate internal map of every single stoplight, it's doomed.
- ars 10y ago
  That's the current status of self driving cars. And yes, I think they are doomed. At least for city streets - I expect them on specially instrumented freeways though.
  - jayjay71 10y ago
    Delphi actively looks for traffic lights at every intersection with their self-driving technology, or at least they used to.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - olalonde 10y ago
    > That's the current status of self driving cars. Do you work in the field? I'm a bit skeptical about that. Waymo's self-driving car seems to do pretty well with things that aren't encoded in maps like road works and unexpected obstacles. I don't see why red lights would be exceptionally challenging to detect.
    - hbk1966 10y ago
      Tesla's demo video of their fully self driving software looks pretty good too.
      - gens 10y ago
        A talk about this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5E28fp4oc0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5E28fp4oc0
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- pmontra 10y ago
  There are also temporary traffic lights added and removed during road works. There are also pranksters that turn traffic lights by 90° to make them face the wrong direction. Those are hard to map.
- yeukhon 10y ago
  What about the case the stoplight stops functioning? This happens many times. Recently late at night in Flushing NY crew was working on replacing switches on the stoplight and that caused outage so the Department of Transportation actually have asked the police department to send out officers to help direct traffic. Yeah, good luck with that if we are running self-driving car.
  - rwmj 10y ago
    Why? Two things could happen here: The self-driving car could recognize hand gestures. Or the police could carry a simple radio transmitter device which would transmit directions to the self-driving cars (while also making gestures for human-driven cars). This is hardly some insurmountable problem.
    - massysett 10y ago
      Self-driving car needs to adapt to the world; if police need a special device to communicate with the car, the car is unsafe and should be banned from public roads.
      - rwmj 10y ago
        So the enormous benefits of self-driving cars (many saved lives, mobility for people who cannot drive, reduced costs) should be prevented because we cannot equip police with a few radio transmitters? -- Assuming that is even needed, because Waymo's cars can recognize gestures made by cyclists already, so it's hardly a stretch to imagine them recognizing gestures made by policemen.
        landryraccoon 10y ago
        It think it's more pragmatic than that. If Kansas doesn't want to equip their police with transmitters, then transmitters simply won't happen. It's a political problem which is much thornier than technical problems. I'm sure you could already apply that rubric today : If only government agency X would implement simple technology Y, everyone's life would be easier. In the real world, that fails to happen all the time. Self driving cars are probably just going to have to recognize hand signals. That's simply the reality.
- raverbashing 10y ago
  To anyone with a moderate driving experience, this should be obvious This seems to be a decision on par with "depend on left-pad". reliability wise
AustinDizzy 10y ago
Forget if you're behind a school bus as I'd hope it would stop for any vehicle stopping in front of it. If you're on a normal rural highway (i.e. one with two but oppositely travelling lanes) and a school bus which is coming towards you makes a stop, you must stop so that any exiting kids can safely cross the street to their homes. What happens when a school bus makes a stop and the car decides to keep rolling through the bus's displayed and flashing red stop sign?
- spike021 10y ago
  Fairly sure (though it likely depends on geographic location laws) that no matter your lane you need to stop if a bus displays its stop sign and lights, because, like you said, kids might try crossing the street at any time/place. So a self-driving car might be a lane or two away from the bus (not directly behind it) and still need to know to stop.
  - Dylan16807 10y ago
    The exact rules do depend on the area. Where I am you always have to stop behind a bus on your side in any lane, but traffic on the other side does not have to stop if there are 4+ lanes.
    - mkmdy 10y ago
      Much of the material I studied for my learners permit written test has since become just part of how I drive (I hope), but the rules regarding stopping for school-busses have always stuck with me for some reason. In Florida, the rule is that all traffic going in either direction must stop, except when the road is "a divided highway with an unpaved space of at least 5 feet, a raised median, or a physical barrier"[0], in which case the opposing traffic does not have to stop. It's interesting to me to see how little things like this change from place to place, and how these localized rules will be handled by self-driving vehicles. [0]http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0300-0399/0316/Sections/0316.172.html http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Displ...

mikeash 10y ago

Even normal stoplights can be added or removed. If a car needs an accurate internal map of every single stoplight, it's doomed.

ars 10y ago
That's the current status of self driving cars. And yes, I think they are doomed. At least for city streets - I expect them on specially instrumented freeways though.
- jayjay71 10y ago
  Delphi actively looks for traffic lights at every intersection with their self-driving technology, or at least they used to.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- olalonde 10y ago
  > That's the current status of self driving cars. Do you work in the field? I'm a bit skeptical about that. Waymo's self-driving car seems to do pretty well with things that aren't encoded in maps like road works and unexpected obstacles. I don't see why red lights would be exceptionally challenging to detect.
  - hbk1966 10y ago
    Tesla's demo video of their fully self driving software looks pretty good too.
    - gens 10y ago
      A talk about this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5E28fp4oc0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5E28fp4oc0
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
pmontra 10y ago
There are also temporary traffic lights added and removed during road works. There are also pranksters that turn traffic lights by 90° to make them face the wrong direction. Those are hard to map.
yeukhon 10y ago
What about the case the stoplight stops functioning? This happens many times. Recently late at night in Flushing NY crew was working on replacing switches on the stoplight and that caused outage so the Department of Transportation actually have asked the police department to send out officers to help direct traffic. Yeah, good luck with that if we are running self-driving car.
- rwmj 10y ago
  Why? Two things could happen here: The self-driving car could recognize hand gestures. Or the police could carry a simple radio transmitter device which would transmit directions to the self-driving cars (while also making gestures for human-driven cars). This is hardly some insurmountable problem.
  - massysett 10y ago
    Self-driving car needs to adapt to the world; if police need a special device to communicate with the car, the car is unsafe and should be banned from public roads.
    - rwmj 10y ago
      So the enormous benefits of self-driving cars (many saved lives, mobility for people who cannot drive, reduced costs) should be prevented because we cannot equip police with a few radio transmitters? -- Assuming that is even needed, because Waymo's cars can recognize gestures made by cyclists already, so it's hardly a stretch to imagine them recognizing gestures made by policemen.
      - landryraccoon 10y ago
        It think it's more pragmatic than that. If Kansas doesn't want to equip their police with transmitters, then transmitters simply won't happen. It's a political problem which is much thornier than technical problems. I'm sure you could already apply that rubric today : If only government agency X would implement simple technology Y, everyone's life would be easier. In the real world, that fails to happen all the time. Self driving cars are probably just going to have to recognize hand signals. That's simply the reality.
raverbashing 10y ago
To anyone with a moderate driving experience, this should be obvious This seems to be a decision on par with "depend on left-pad". reliability wise

AustinDizzy 10y ago

Forget if you're behind a school bus as I'd hope it would stop for any vehicle stopping in front of it. If you're on a normal rural highway (i.e. one with two but oppositely travelling lanes) and a school bus which is coming towards you makes a stop, you must stop so that any exiting kids can safely cross the street to their homes. What happens when a school bus makes a stop and the car decides to keep rolling through the bus's displayed and flashing red stop sign?

spike021 10y ago
Fairly sure (though it likely depends on geographic location laws) that no matter your lane you need to stop if a bus displays its stop sign and lights, because, like you said, kids might try crossing the street at any time/place. So a self-driving car might be a lane or two away from the bus (not directly behind it) and still need to know to stop.
- Dylan16807 10y ago
  The exact rules do depend on the area. Where I am you always have to stop behind a bus on your side in any lane, but traffic on the other side does not have to stop if there are 4+ lanes.
  - mkmdy 10y ago
    Much of the material I studied for my learners permit written test has since become just part of how I drive (I hope), but the rules regarding stopping for school-busses have always stuck with me for some reason. In Florida, the rule is that all traffic going in either direction must stop, except when the road is "a divided highway with an unpaved space of at least 5 feet, a raised median, or a physical barrier"[0], in which case the opposing traffic does not have to stop. It's interesting to me to see how little things like this change from place to place, and how these localized rules will be handled by self-driving vehicles. [0]http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0300-0399/0316/Sections/0316.172.html http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Displ...