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So God inflicted leprocy on humanity because otherwise we wouldn't be able to feel genuine love? And not buying this makes you "naive"?

by olavk 10y ago

forthefuture 10y ago
Thinking that framing God as a contradiction will convince people not to believe in it is naive. People have been saying the same things for 2,000 years. The only development is that we can say it's been longer now.
- olavk 10y ago
  Just as there is lots of suffering and injustice in the world, there is also copious beauty and happiness and love. So framing God as "evil" is just as problematic as painting him as "good". Both positions forces you to ignore or rationalize away large parts of reality. Edit: Oh, you edited your comment to say something different. I guess this comment doesn't make a lot of sense as an answer now.
  - forthefuture 10y ago
    Yeah sorry I can't edit it again now. I editted because the reason I used "evil / unreal" was because those are typically the traits given to a God to illustrate contradiction. And as religion is intrinsically overflowing with contradictions they aren't a particularly compelling way to argue against it.
    - olavk 10y ago
      Oh I totally agree about that.
pbhjpbhj 10y ago
I perhaps haven't expressed the position well however, "naive" isn't a slur, read "simplistic" if it helps, it's philosophy on the level of someone who has not demonstrated cognisance of the basic sources and hasn't addressed the obvious counter-arguments. The mainstream Christian theology is that leprosy, and such diseases came in to the world after, and as a consequence of, The Fall. That if we'd chosen God's way we wouldn't have such things. >So God inflicted leprocy on humanity // God created a Universe with free will for man rather than creating a fancy automaton. Mankind chose not to follow God's precepts, the consequences being that disease, pain and suffering entered the world. It's like if I serve you a hot drink. You can choose to cause pain and suffering with it - throw it at someone, say - or you can follow my instructions to sip it slowly, let it cool and enjoy it, share it. I can't serve you a hot drink without the possibility that you will abuse it, unless I make you into a "hot drink robot" with no free will. You could couch that as God inflicting the possibility of suffering in order to allow the possibility of beauty, love, passion, humanity.
- olavk 10y ago
  Then I sure you are also well aware of the counterarguments against this form of theodicy.
CuriouslyC 10y ago
The idea that we are "privileged" is what breaks this. Assume that we are not special matter, and all matter shares the property of free will. Then the leprousy is just matter (in this case, a bacterium) exerting its free will for in its own interests, ignorant of the ramifications that it has on other matter (us). Given that this happens all the time with people, I don't think it is far fetched. Of course, I don't think the universe exists to love god, so much as the universe is "god" playing with itself for entertainment.

So God inflicted leprocy on humanity because otherwise we wouldn't be able to feel genuine love? And not buying this makes you "naive"?

by olavk 10y ago

So God inflicted leprocy on humanity because otherwise we wouldn't be able to feel genuine love? And not buying this makes you "naive"?

forthefuture 10y ago

Thinking that framing God as a contradiction will convince people not to believe in it is naive. People have been saying the same things for 2,000 years. The only development is that we can say it's been longer now.

olavk 10y ago
Just as there is lots of suffering and injustice in the world, there is also copious beauty and happiness and love. So framing God as "evil" is just as problematic as painting him as "good". Both positions forces you to ignore or rationalize away large parts of reality. Edit: Oh, you edited your comment to say something different. I guess this comment doesn't make a lot of sense as an answer now.
- forthefuture 10y ago
  Yeah sorry I can't edit it again now. I editted because the reason I used "evil / unreal" was because those are typically the traits given to a God to illustrate contradiction. And as religion is intrinsically overflowing with contradictions they aren't a particularly compelling way to argue against it.
  - olavk 10y ago
    Oh I totally agree about that.

pbhjpbhj 10y ago

I perhaps haven't expressed the position well however, "naive" isn't a slur, read "simplistic" if it helps, it's philosophy on the level of someone who has not demonstrated cognisance of the basic sources and hasn't addressed the obvious counter-arguments. The mainstream Christian theology is that leprosy, and such diseases came in to the world after, and as a consequence of, The Fall. That if we'd chosen God's way we wouldn't have such things. >So God inflicted leprocy on humanity // God created a Universe with free will for man rather than creating a fancy automaton. Mankind chose not to follow God's precepts, the consequences being that disease, pain and suffering entered the world. It's like if I serve you a hot drink. You can choose to cause pain and suffering with it - throw it at someone, say - or you can follow my instructions to sip it slowly, let it cool and enjoy it, share it. I can't serve you a hot drink without the possibility that you will abuse it, unless I make you into a "hot drink robot" with no free will. You could couch that as God inflicting the possibility of suffering in order to allow the possibility of beauty, love, passion, humanity.

olavk 10y ago
Then I sure you are also well aware of the counterarguments against this form of theodicy.

CuriouslyC 10y ago

The idea that we are "privileged" is what breaks this. Assume that we are not special matter, and all matter shares the property of free will. Then the leprousy is just matter (in this case, a bacterium) exerting its free will for in its own interests, ignorant of the ramifications that it has on other matter (us). Given that this happens all the time with people, I don't think it is far fetched. Of course, I don't think the universe exists to love god, so much as the universe is "god" playing with itself for entertainment.