15 ms·

Two Indian engineers at Garmin in Kansas shot, one killed

306 points by OliverJones 10y ago

hd4 10y ago
Pretty sickening news, but I'm glad the writer used the term 'terrorist', something the MSM tend to shy away from when the perp is white. edit: Definiton of terrorism from Google: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims Wikipedia: Terrorism is, in its broadest sense, the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror or fear, in order to achieve a political, religious, or ideological aim FBI: The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) defines terrorism as “the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.” Just in case there's some confusion about this very obvious terrorist act.
- mordant 10y ago
  Assuming the facts of the case are as reported, this looks like simple second-degree murder to me. Why do you think it's 'terrorism'? Why does the race of the parties involved matter to you?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - mozumder 10y ago
    > Why do you think it's 'terrorism'? Because it was a politically motivated attack on civilians, the standard the FBI uses to determine terrorism.
    - mordant 10y ago
      Nothing that's been reported conclusively demonstrates this at all. For all we know, there was some prior history between the suspect and the victims.
      - mozumder 10y ago
        > For all we know Then you should attempt to know more before commenting, such as reading the article, or any of the other articles about this incident, where the gunman literally stated what his motives were. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/02/kansas-city-shooting-investigated-hate-crime-170224063319878.html http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/02/kansas-city-shooting-i...
    - 2muchcoffeeman 10y ago
      My one google didn't find the definition on the FBI website. But there is a description from the Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/12/fbi-definition-of-terrorism/418722/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/12/fbi-def... “Domestic terrorism” means activities with the following three characteristics: Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law; Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S. If this is correct, then no, this was not terrorism. Edit:formatting
      - hd4 10y ago
        >(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
      - mozumder 10y ago
        what? - Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law; Check. - (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; Check. - Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S. Check. Why are there so many people defending terrorism in this thread? White males are committing terrorist acts.. own it. From there we can figure out how to solve the problem of white-males committing terrorist acts.. how would you solve the problem of white males committing terrorist acts?
        mikeash 10y ago
        Because a remarkable number of people are racist, even here.
        breatheoften 10y ago
        I got into a argument with my German girlfriend last night that involved calling her a racist. We were discussing where to travel for our next holiday -- and it came to light that she would not go to France because she was afraid and said she would be uncomfortable there. She also told me that she is uncomfortable on the train when there are young muslim males on board. I tried to argue the statistics of risk with her and said that we should've also avoiding traveling to the US based on her risk assessment given the risk of being killed by mentally ill people with guns or white supremacist terrorists. Ultimately, in my opinion, she is just more comfortable with risk if it comes from white people than from brown -- I choose to call her a racist to try and demonstrate just how wrong I perceive her thinking to be. Its very depressing to watch the reasonableness and kindness of Germans that I used to perceive to be common and widespread so in decline... Racists really do seem like they are everywhere these days ...
  - nabeelkhalid 10y ago
    They killed him to send a message to immigrants. Leave or die. They sent this message using murder, so yes they 'terrorised' a migrant to stop them coming over.
    - mordant 10y ago
      Unless you know the state of mind of the shooter, I'm pretty sure you can't really say that, one thing or another. Nothing that it was reported that the suspect said points to anything other than animus against the particular victims.
      - nabeelkhalid 10y ago
        the title of the article “Get out of my Country!” White Terrorist Shoots Asian-American Engineers in Wake of Trump Visa Ban"
  - linuxkerneldev 10y ago
    > Assuming the facts of the case are as reported, simple second-degree murder to me Second degree murder is: 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion"; or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Most articles state the equivalent of the following, I'm using the one from The Verge: " Purinton has been charged with one count of premeditated first degree murder, and two counts of attempted premeditated first degree murder. " > Why does the race of the parties involved matter to you? " A witness said he yelled “get out of my country” to two of the victims, reportedly saying the men, believed to originally be from India, were “Middle Eastern.” " That's the description of a hate-crime as he had no prior interaction with the victims. He picked on them precisely because of his perception of their skin color and mistakenly assuming they were his intended target out-group.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    > Why does the race of the parties involved matter to you? Because it mattered to the murderer. EDIT: For clarity, it can be both a hate crime and terrorism.
    - jaxn 10y ago
      Not sure why that was downvoted. That is a pretty simple litmus test for a hate-crime.
      - hd4 10y ago
        I think what is really objectionable about making this into purely a hate crime is that you are effectively saying because it's a hate crime, it can't also be politically-motivated i.e. terrorism. Much of the anger here is coming from this undeniable attempt to deflect what this really is. Like that other guy said, own it.
        jaxn 10y ago
        I guess I don't understand the distinction of a hate crime vs terrorism. I would think hate crimes are a subset of terrorism and not a lessor charge.
        saalweachter 10y ago
        Practically they are, but in the US you aren't supposed to say it out loud.
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
        throwaway729 10y ago
        In theory, it's possible for hate crimes to not be terrorism. Kill someone because they are a certain color, but have no intent for any end goal beyond killing that one person. In practice, that probably never happens. Hate crimes almost always coincide with the intent to terrorize the target population.
  - hd4 10y ago
    Well, let's see. >the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims I think the very clear and undisguised political aim here is to stop non-whites from feeling welcome or safe to live and work in America.
  - hd4 10y ago
    Also, why are you so insistently trying to make this into something other than terrorism, which is clearly is, even by your own definition?
- jlebrech 10y ago
  when the perp is in the "in group" he's a lone wolf, when he's not he's a terrorist. simple really.
  - mozumder 10y ago
    The FBI definition of terrorism doesn't require it to be a group activity.
    - jaxn 10y ago
      In-group is a sociology term. He is saying it is bigger/different from whether or not the individual is white, but whether they are a member of the in-group.
    - k-mcgrady 10y ago
      I don't think the parent means a group of people committing a crime - they mean 'in group' as in US citizen/not the enemy.
      - creshal 10y ago
        That still doesn't make sense. Domestic terrorism is a thing and has been for decades.
    - jlebrech 10y ago
      it also have to be politically motivated too, but conducted by someone alienated by the populace (i.e war doesn't count) and white lunatic doesn't count as a terrorist, but dylan roof or eliot rogers does.
    - jdeee 10y ago
      I think you may have misunderstood the comment you are commenting on. I believe they were saying that members of the socially dominate group who perform crimes are seen as outliers while members of minority groups are seen as reflecting the values of the group.
  - makomk 10y ago
- Udik 10y ago
  In order to be a terrorist I think you need a political purpose, an ideology and a plan of some kind. From what I read in this case, this seems more like a deranged person. Instead of trying to apply the thought-blocking "terrorist" label to more people, I'd work to apply it to less people. Terrorist is often a very convenient way of referring to our enemies- when they start to hit back.
  - snsr 10y ago
    > In order to be a terrorist I think you need a political purpose, an ideology and a plan of some kind. Not in the US, where this cowardly, racist attack took place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_terrorism#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_terrorism#Unite...
  - mikeash 10y ago
    Political purpose: get rid of immigrants (of certain colors). Ideology: right-wing extremism. Plan: shoot some people in the group you want to leave, striking fear into the rest. Seems fitting to me.
    - Klockan 10y ago
      > Plan: shoot some people in the group you want to leave, striking fear into the rest. A person who shoots two people and then immediately goes to another bar to brag about it probably lacks the mental faculties to come up with such an elaborate plan.
      - nkrisc 10y ago
        What exactly is elaborate about a plan to shoot people?
        Klockan 10y ago
        It isn't, but people accuse him of shooting people to scare away others which requires more thought. The murder is obviously premeditated, I am not arguing about that, I just argue that he probably didn't do it for any higher purpose than wanting them dead.
- DanielBMarkham 10y ago
  I'm sorry. I do not care about dictionaries. Words gain and lose meaning by connotation, not by dictionaries. Good working definitions increase our ability to solve problems. Poor working definitions decrease them. In this case the proposed definition is a poor one. If this is terrorism, there are dozens of terrorists acts every day. Hate crime? Sure. Drunken armed fool on his way to jail and a couple of guys just in the wrong place at the wrong time? Absolutely. Terrorism. Screw that. The word doesn't describe what happened. The western world is not in a war to stop armed stupid drunken men. Perhaps that's a great idea, but even then it wouldn't be terrorism. My working definition of terrorism, which has served me well over the years, is "the use of stealth to deliberately target civilians in order to effect political change"
  - roninb 10y ago
    By that definition, our own government is committing terroristic acts constantly. Hell, Facebook and Google are terrorists by that definition as well. I don't necessarily agree nor disagree with the particular event at hand being labeled as a terror attack, but I'd implore you to analyze your homebrew definition. What's added? What's left out? Why should the "mainstream" definition be changed? Is it not specific enough for the people you think we should target with that term? Is it too specifically targeting people you don't think we should care about?
  - barrkel 10y ago
    You have it backwards with that war; it's the "war on terror" that is a conceptual absurdity, it does not serve to prop up your definition of terror. Stealth - what does this mean? The people committing the acts need to be creeping around beforehand? Or that they need to not announce what they're going to do before they do it (not the case for Northern Ireland terrorism, where warning phone calls were all part of the terror tactic - get everyone evacuated). Further, in Northern Irish terrorism, civilians weren't deliberately targeted; in fact, many plots were modified to reduce the risk of injury to civilian bystanders. Disruption to civilians, sure, but the targets were more usually economic or governmental than civilian per se. "Effecting political change with violence committed by non-state civilian actors" might be a working definition. And I think right-wing nutjobs killing specifically targeted ethnicities counts, just as much in the US as it did in 1930s Germany.
- justin66 10y ago
  In the nineties the FBI categorized things like church burnings as acts of terrorism, understandably so. (and that's an important example, as there are depressingly many church burnings every year) I'm pretty sure those sorts of crimes still fall under the FBI's terrorism label but their political masters don't really play that up. "Violent crimes committed by people who are not like you who we'd like you to hate" is as accurate a definition of terrorism as anything at the political level, nowadays.
- ninv 10y ago
  It was not a planned attack. I would call it a hate crime instead of a terrorist attack.
  - jadell 10y ago
    Why should it not be both? "I hate non-white immigrants and I want them to get out of my country, and will use deadly force on a random subset of them in order to scare the others into leaving or not coming here" is both a racist and a political statement.
- geodel 10y ago
  > I'm glad the writer used the term 'terrorist', something the MSM tend to shy away from when the perp is white I think in this case it is easy one. Left wing white would still be outside terrorist category.
linuxkerneldev 10y ago
"Srinivas Kuchibhotla, died of his injuries in a Kansas City hospital. He is said to have left behind a wife who is five months pregnant. ... His bereaved wife and his family are trying to raise money to send his body back to India for his funeral. " I'm terribly ashamed of the state of our shining city upon on a hill.
- AckSyn 10y ago
  Senseless violence is a plague. I hope they are able to send his body back where they want him buried.
  - rainhacker 10y ago
    I think they'd want him cremated. But I get you sentiment.
- geodel 10y ago
  It is indeed a terrible loss. But what I don't understand is: > His bereaved wife and his family are trying to raise money to send his body back to India for his funeral Is it a common thing to raise money as in community support etc or despite being engineers and all people just do not save money for their emergency needs. Edit: Sorry about this question. Now I think it is rather tactless question, asked on this unfortunate occasion.
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    It seems very weird for a person that age to be setting aside money for funeral expenses.
  - erik998 10y ago
    The costs of a funeral, transportation, and legal work can be excessive. Additionally, no one plans to be shot at a young age. I am sure they would rather spend their savings on their children/healthcare/rent now that there is no one providing for their household. Just because he was an engineer does not mean he was paid 10x everyone else.
rdl 10y ago
This is terrible. At best, it was a drunken asshole murdering someone. It sounds like it might have been a racially motivated hate crime, though. (I'm not sure if I'd call it terrorism unless the goal were to terrorize other people, but quite possibly.)
- linuxkerneldev 10y ago
  > not sure if I'd call it terrorism unless the goal were to terrorize other people One of the things we've been working on in our office is learning empathy. So we take the characters in an incident narrative, reverse/flip all persons/locations and then see how it changes our perception of the incident. So in this example, if we reverse everything, it becomes: "An Indian man shouting "Get Out Of My Country" in a bar shoots and kills two promising young American engineers working in India.". The effect that has would naturally be to make Americans afraid of going to or being in India, hence: terror alert, terrorism. So I can empathize and understand why the author of the article described the murderer as a terrorist.
  - jaxn 10y ago
    Guessing you don't work at Uber ;)
  - ak39 10y ago
    I wanna work in your office too!
  - hd4 10y ago
    Honestly reading this comment restores some of my hope in people. And it's refreshing seeing the reaction of the comments in this thread. Even though we are relatively unknown as a 'group' or whatever, it's good to know that among the ranks of programmers/engineers etc, the vast majority of us are overwhelmingly right-minded people.
  - Udik 10y ago
    You can empathise, but is this right? I think it would be silly to describe it as terrorism if it had happened in India. The fact that US's mainstream media would have done exactly that, wouldn't have made it less silly. So maybe (I mean it in a good way, even if it sounds a bit direct) you should use empathy to stop labelling things like this as terrorism, instead of doing the exact opposite.
vallavaraiyan 10y ago
High time citizens from rest of the world actively boycott travelling & working in the USA. It is just not worth getting shot by a random idiot while walking on the street.
- rhapsodic 10y ago
  If you don't mind saying, what country are you from?
  - erggr4tyh4y 10y ago
    Vallavarayan is a Tamil name.
  - oblio 10y ago
    Well, he's probably from a country with fewer guns per capita than the US. Which means.. all of them. Why would a developed country need 112 guns per 100 residents is beyond me. The US: * is less dangerous than Yemen (where there's a war going on right now) * most likely has smaller hunting areas than Russia * has a standing army, unlike Switzerland yet it still has more guns per capita than any of them!
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      Nearly everywhere in the US that isn't city is open to hunting. A big exception is the National Park System, but only a few of those are very large. Of course Russia is the largest country by land area so what you say is likely to be true, but still, pretty much everyone in the US is fairly close to viable hunting grounds. Of course not everyone hunts, but then owning 2 or 3 firearms for different types of hunting isn't really outlandish.
      - oblio 10y ago
        > Of course not everyone hunts, but then owning 2 or 3 firearms for different types of hunting isn't really outlandish. The US literally has more than 1 gun per person. The US population includes: * children * senior citizens * disabled citizens * urban residents who most likely see hunting grounds once per decade * the largest prison population in the world * etc. I don't buy your argument.
hermanni666 10y ago
How about no more of these leftist propaganda sites? "White terrorist"... :DDD This has got to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Some clearly mentally problematic psycho shoots random people and picks up the first excuse that comes to his mind. This has nothing to do with politics or anything else either.
- anotheryou 10y ago
  Does it have to be more organized to be "political"? It clearly was acting based on some psychos political views and probably also with the attempt to effect politics in some way. I think all terrorists (no matter which definition) are mentally problematic psychos.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
ganfortran 10y ago
This is terrifying. I am speechless now. One thing comes to my mind is to avoid those encounters as possible, maybe those states as whole. Just sad.
- tjr225 10y ago
  That's absurd. This took place in *Olathe, Kansas- which is adjacent to the Kansas City metro area that straddles the KS MO border. This is as much an anomoly here as it would be when it happens anywhere else: https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/activeshooter_incidents_2001-2016.pdf/view https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/activeshooter_incidents_...
  - frgtpsswrdlame 10y ago
    Are you sure about that? Kansas City has a problem with this sort of stuff: http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article134041159.html http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article134041159.... http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-kansas-city-bomb-plot-20150911-story.html http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-kansas-city... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overland_Park_Jewish_Community_Center_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overland_Park_Jewish_Community...
    - tjr225 10y ago
      You could say this about any city that has enough people in it: https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS723US723&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Austin+terror+Threat&safe=off&tbm=nws https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C5... https://www.google.com/search?q=Paris+Terror+Threat&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS723US723&oq=Paris+Terror+Threat&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60l4j69i61.2128j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=Paris+Terror+Threat&safe=off&tbm=nws https://www.google.com/search?q=Paris+Terror+Threat&rlz=1C5C... https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS723US723&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=bangalore+terror+threat&safe=off&tbm=nws https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C5... I think that this stuff is really, truly tragic and that one of the takeaways is that terrorism is really effective. Please don't be terrorized.
douche 10y ago
Can we deep-six this blatantly biased article and get a real news report instead?
- k-mcgrady 10y ago
  Here's another link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39072816 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39072816
- hd4 10y ago
  I think sometimes it helps to biased when the MSM narrative is going to deliberately shy away from calling things out as they actually are. But still the facts here speak for themselves. The guy shot 2 Indians specifically because he thought they were 'Middle-Eastern' (i.e. Muslim). It's terrorism and it's good the writer called it terrorism, since the BBC article seems to not use this term.
  - NLips 10y ago
    I think the BBC use is very fair, so long as it is applied consistently. The guidelines for 'terrorist': Terrorist The word ‘terrorist’ is not banned, but its use can be a barrier rather than an aid to understanding. We should convey to our audience the full consequences of the act by describing what happened. We should use words which specifically describe the perpetrator such as bomber, attacker, gunman, kidnapper, insurgent and militant. We should not adopt other people's language as our own. Our responsibility is to remain objective and report in ways that enable our audiences to make their own assessments about who is doing what to whom. When we do use the term we should strive to do so with consistency in the stories we report across all our services, and in a way that does not undermine our reputation for objectivity and accuracy. It is also very important that we strive for consistency across the international and UK facing sites. If a BBC World story uses very measured language but a UK version does not, a user will rightly question the different approaches. The words ‘terror’ and ‘terrorist’ may be used in a non-specific context, or in direct quotes - but it is not for us to label a particular group or specific act as terrorist. Beware of paraphrasing and selective quotation, eg: “The Israeli prime minister said that while ‘terrorist’ attacks continued he would not back down.” Putting the single word ‘terrorist’ in quotes may give the impression that the BBC is sceptical about the prime minister’s assessment of the nature of the attacks. Domestically, we tread a similar line on Northern Ireland. The IRA is so well known, worldwide, that a label is not necessary. Groups such as the Real IRA and Continuity IRA can often be best labelled as dissident. A second reference to organisations such as the UFF and UVF could be along the lines of: The loyalist paramilitary organisation warned...
patrickg_zill 10y ago
You'll get more objective info from the YouTube video than the editorializing article.
dforrestwilson 10y ago
20 minutes drive from me. People might perceive Kansas as a backwards agrarian holdfast, but Olathe where this happened is a pretty thriving tech and aerospace corridor. Everyone here is pretty upset about it. Hopefully justice will be served.
- X86BSD 10y ago
  It will be. The shooter is going to get the death penalty I'm quite certain of it.
palerdot 10y ago
Freak incidents are heart-breaking, particularly when we don't really know what one could have done to prevent them. As an outsider to a typical U.S lifestyle, one thing that puzzles me is why do people need a gun even when they are in a social place like a bar. This is not a first of its kind shooting happening in U.S. As far as I can remember, all the freak incidents in U.S some way or other involve shooting, out of the mind gunmen etc. I'm thankful that at least in my country I will not get killed by a random person with whom I'm having conversation with. P.S: I'm from India.
- Mithaldu 10y ago
  It is perfectly well-known how to avoid such things: Stronger gun control to raise the difficulty of achieving death of others; state-enforced education levels with low to zero cost. Sadly these things run counter to the convictions of a loud enough part of the US population that they cannot usefully be implemented.
  - NTripleOne 10y ago
    American just love their bear arms.
  - nsxwolf 10y ago
    Problem is not enough people carry guns. This guy knew he wouldn't be met with any resistance and that's why he was able to do what he did.
    - Mithaldu 10y ago
      Please tell me you mean this as a joke. D:
      - krapp 10y ago
        It's not an uncommon belief in the US. Whenever a school shooting occurs or other mass shooting occurs, Americans come out in droves to blame it on gun control, and insist that the solution to gun violence is more guns in the hands of the "right" people. Events like that tend to lead Americans to buy more guns and ammo in anticipation of stricter gun control laws, rather than consider whether the proliferation of guns contributes to the problem at all.
Shinchy 10y ago
3 People were shot, it should be noted.
algorias 10y ago
Better source: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-kansas-india-idUSKBN1630LZ http://www.reuters.com/article/us-kansas-india-idUSKBN1630LZ
- interfixus 10y ago
  I don't know why you are downvoted. Most sources in this world are better than Juan Cole.
Mithaldu 10y ago
It's quite unkind to tell someone who's feeling fear because a murder happened that they are being "absurd".
- tjr225 10y ago
  These incidents are not limited to Kansas City nor are they common. KC is a welcoming and open minded place. If I held this same attitude I would have never visited places such as Paris or Istanbul(not that KC is as wonderful as either of those places).
- Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
  No. Rational heads should prevail even in these situations. What if "I guess I should just avoid white people" was the conclusion? It's just as absurd and just as demeaning to Kansas.
  - Mithaldu 10y ago
    Please read my post again, i said "tell someone ... they're being absurd". Operative word being "tell". Feel free to think it, feel free to correct them kindly, but if you actually tell them those words then you ARE being unkind. Given that you value "rational heads" it is ironic you managed to not read my post with a rational head. Edit: Also, given that, as a state Kansas failed to enact measures that are proven to minimize occurence of such things, i think it does not get to complain about being demeaned. These deaths are on Kansas, as a state.
    - Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
      I wasn't going to rise to this until your edit: >Kansas failed to enact measures that are proven to minimize occurence of such things Source?
      - Mithaldu 10y ago
        http://statelaws.findlaw.com/kansas-law/kansas-gun-control-laws.html http://statelaws.findlaw.com/kansas-law/kansas-gun-control-l... "In 2015, for instance, a law was passed allowing Kansas residents to carry a concealed firearm without a permit or training." I could likely find more (education, social services, etc.), but well, i don't think i need to look further after that. E: Also have this: https://i.imgur.com/6f7lRRH.png https://i.imgur.com/6f7lRRH.png
happy-go-lucky 10y ago
He might be racially charged, but my intuition is telling me he would not have committed the crime if he were not under the influence.
- wtbob 10y ago
  And oddly enough, while we see people in this thread arguing for the end of the fundamental human right to bear arms, we don't see them arguing for the end of the fundamental human right to intoxication.
- mido22 10y ago
  would that bring back the dead...
  - happy-go-lucky 10y ago
    No, for sure. What I'm trying to say is racist thoughts coupled with intoxication must have clouded his mind and led him to such an extreme.
    - ceejayoz 10y ago
      Is a drunk terrorist any less deplorable than a sober one?
      - happy-go-lucky 10y ago
        No. A situation involving terrorists carrying firearms and getting drunk is more dangerous.
- mildbow 10y ago
  Alcohol doesn't kill people, people kill people? :)
alistproducer2 10y ago
Total silence about this in the msm. I wonder why?
- whorleater 10y ago
  NY Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/24/world/asia/kansas-attack-possible-hate-crime-srinivas-kuchibhotla.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/24/world/asia/kansas-attack-... Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-kansas-india-idUSKBN1630LZ http://www.reuters.com/article/us-kansas-india-idUSKBN1630LZ CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/24/us/kansas-olathe-bar-shooting/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/24/us/kansas-olathe-bar-shooting/... Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/02/24/get-out-of-my-country-kansan-reportedly-yelled-before-shooting-2-men-from-india-killing-one/?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories_mm-kansas-151am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/02/2... Ah yes, all that "silence".
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
gravypod 10y ago
Hmm... "“Get out of my Country!” White Terrorist Shoots Asian-American Engineers in Wake of Trump Visa Ban" Oh so the guy shot two Asian-Americans because of Trump's Visa Ban. Too bad that's not at all what the article says. At most the article says "The White House sets a tone in a country. Trump’s assertion that “Islam hates us” and his project of a Muslim ban sent a signal permitting hate crimes to the millions of unbalanced people in the US into whose hands the National Rifle Association has insisted on putting firearms. " So let me get this strait. For this thought experiment I'm going to present the ideas as how I feel the author may see them. A -> B -> C A: Some guy, who was democratically elected by laws and regulations set up, established, and agreeded upon by all citizens of the US. He ran on a platform of ideas that he wanted and by extension, due to his ability to have a majority election, are mirrored by a majority of the states in the union. B: This guy does what he said he would do, or at least the closest political equivilent. C: People take this to mean we can just kill people whenever we want! That logic doesn't make sense. I don't see the connection from A -> B -> C. Maybe there are more factors but for a title like this I expect a "I have proof that A -> B and from this data and from this other data I can prove that B -> C". Also, I very much take umbridge with the statement that the NRA advocates, or results in, "unbalanced people" owning guns. I'd like to see some proof of why that claim is made. The NRA is perfectly fine with a specific set of gun control measures like FIDs, the right to refuse sale, and citizen run background checks. I don't think just stomping your feet and saying "the NRA is the problem" is going to make this (or any situation) better. I also find it very funny that the only victim not mentioned in the title is the one who isn't "Asian-American". I know many far right-wing people who I'll send this to so they can have a chuckle at this sort of white washing. Big Brother would be proud at this authors ability to create a narative in such few words. He's given "For Sale, Baby Shoes; Never worn" a run for it's money with this one. A better title would be "Three shot, one killed in Racist Attack" or something. I'm not a writer but leaving out a victum because it doesn't sound good in your title is just extremely sad in my opinion.
- l8again 10y ago
  A: Some guy, who was democratically elected.... B: This guy ran on a xenophobic platform, declaring to ban an entire religion (unconstitutional). Travel ban, by the admission of his own people, was a way of "making it legal". C: Emboldens extremists and racists in his fan base to commit murders. A -> B -> C There, fixed it for you.
chatwinra 10y ago
Tragic story. A GoFundMe page has been set up for Kuchibhotla’s wife and family, if you're interested in helping out. https://www.gofundme.com/srinus-familyrecovery-support https://www.gofundme.com/srinus-familyrecovery-support
ghoshbishakh 10y ago
I am an Indian student awaiting a J-1 Visa. Should I drop my plans of visiting USA? I do not feel safe travelling there myself anymore.
- mildbow 10y ago
  Rationally? No, you shouldn't drop your plans of visiting.
- mikeash 10y ago
  You'll be fine. The murder rate in the US is comparable to India's. Pretty much by definition, anything that makes the (inter)national news is a rare event. There's some bad shit going down in this country, but it's not to the point where people need to fear for their lives. (And I think/hope it will remain that way.)
- driverdan 10y ago
  > I do not feel safe travelling there myself anymore. Why? A single incident in a country of 300 million people does not make it an unsafe place. Do not live in fear.
alextheparrot 10y ago
I think the words of the third man, who was shot pursuing the shooter (He had thought the man had emptied his gun), are powerful: “It’s not about where he [victim] was from or his ethnicity. We’re all humans, so I just did what was right to do.”
- kcdev 10y ago
  Here's a video of the interview: http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article134581204.html http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article134581204....
desireco42 10y ago
Aww man, this is sad
downandout 10y ago
Timothy McVeigh was a white terrorist. This is a hate crime committed by a racist alcoholic. "Terrorism" is the wrong word here. I also take issue with this statement: >"Remember, the shooter had been told by Trump-Bannon that Muslims hate America and should be excluded from the US." This lays bare the author's intention to blame Trump for every crime that is ever committed against middle-eastern people in the US. This is obviously an absurd and extreme notion. So this article is an extremely biased, politicized version of a legitimate news event. I thought HN had an "original source" policy. The link should probably be changed to the actual news article upon which this drivel is based, which is here [1]. [1] http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article134508139.html http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article134508139....
- CrossWired 10y ago
  Lets not try to minimize his racism by allocating ANY of the blame on his possible alcoholism. He's a racist murder, who just happens to be a drunkard.
  - downandout 10y ago
    I guess I wouldn't ever excuse or minimize any crime based upon alcoholism, so I didn't take into account that others might. I just meant that he was a drunk racist.
- virtuabhi 10y ago
  I have a disagreement with - "blame Trump for every crime that is ever committed against middle-eastern people in the US". Why should we not blame the people whose rhetoric is inspiring the violence towards immigrants? Obviously, no one is saying that Trump personally killed Srinivas, but (afaik) then neither did Hitler.
  - downandout 10y ago
    Trump is not Hitler, as much as leftists and the media love the comparison. Did the killer even mention Trump? People with racist views were doing terrible things before Trump was even born, and they will be doing them long after he dies. If Trump has ever endorsed the murder of anyone, let alone murder based upon the intended victim's race, I would love to see the footage. Then I will stand behind your comment all the way. Until then, I don't even see a passive link.
xazJ0ku5CZnlmg 10y ago
Its quite sad to see innocent folks getting killed in the crossfire/emotions that were invoked for politics. I used to live in Kansas, am an Indian and have young kids. This has disturbed me so much emotionally I'm not even sure what to look for next and the way things are going, this is just the beginning.
- shripadk 10y ago
  Why not come back to India? I know the lifestyle cannot be compared to the US but hey at least you can be part of directly building the Nation. It's better to live in peace (with freedom) than live in fear (and in a golden cage).
  - xazJ0ku5CZnlmg 10y ago
    India is not all that great either...I was in India for 6 months last year, and I have seen kids getting kidnapped for ransom by friends. My wife's cousin was killed for ransom last year. Dont know which is better/worse.
    - shripadk 10y ago
      True and I'm not disputing you. In India it also depends on the kind of social circle you have. I have heard of such stories myself. However, it largely depends on who you make friends with or have relations with. But these are all incidents that have a backdrop of some sort and these stories are quite common in any country you go to. I'm not talking about such incidents. What I'm talking about is random shootings: Rarely is it the case (at least I haven't heard of any in India) that some random stranger comes up to you and starts unloading bullets just because you are of some different ethnicity/background. Be it school shootings or pub fights, most incidents that come out of USA are racial targeting where the perpetrator does not have any idea about his targets (victims). Even the caste-based violence in India stems out of some real backdrop: Inter-caste marriages, dowry harassment etc. All these are avoidable if you have the right social circle. What you can't avoid is crazies going around with guns shooting random people based on how their look.
jessaustin 10y ago
As a counterpoint, elsewhere in Kansas: http://www.npr.org/2017/02/19/516016940/a-thriving-rural-towns-winning-formula-faces-new-threats-under-trump-administrat http://www.npr.org/2017/02/19/516016940/a-thriving-rural-tow... Olathe, and I guess Johnson County in general, is a weird place. It's like the Texas of the Kansas City Metro area: wealthy, egotistical, and clueless. Based on some of the jaw-dropping shit I've heard locals say, this is probably not the first time these engineers experienced an incident of public racism.
- frgtpsswrdlame 10y ago
  A counterpoint to your counterpoint: http://www.kwch.com/content/news/Federal-officials-to-announce-arrests-in-major-investigation-397095961.html http://www.kwch.com/content/news/Federal-officials-to-announ... Although you're correct about Johnson County.
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    Thanks, I had a little feeling that I was forgetting something about Garden City. Frankly I don't see how anyone could live there, although I suppose it's a good potential source for Mars colonists. They won't miss trees or geographical features...
- wesgarrison 10y ago
  From Olathe. Grew up here. Ate at that restaurant last week, even. I don't find our level of racism any different than when I travel elsewhere in the US. There are bigoted people everywhere, but most people around here just want to raise a family and hang out with their neighbors, whatever color they are.
happy-go-lucky 10y ago
Guns don't help make the world a better place. I'm non-partisan.
- grzm 10y ago
  You're risking downvotes by expressing an expectation of downvotes, which is explicitly against the guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit to add: Thanks for updating your comment!
  - happy-go-lucky 10y ago
    > Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downvote you or proclaim that you expect to get downvoted. +1. I had to remove I know I'm risking downvotes, but.
  - happy-go-lucky 10y ago
    That's a wake-up call. Thank you :)
dang 10y ago
Url changed from http://www.juancole.com/2017/02/terrorist-american-engineers.html http://www.juancole.com/2017/02/terrorist-american-engineers..., which points to this.

306 points by OliverJones 10y ago

hd4 10y ago

Pretty sickening news, but I'm glad the writer used the term 'terrorist', something the MSM tend to shy away from when the perp is white. edit: Definiton of terrorism from Google: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims Wikipedia: Terrorism is, in its broadest sense, the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror or fear, in order to achieve a political, religious, or ideological aim FBI: The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) defines terrorism as “the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.” Just in case there's some confusion about this very obvious terrorist act.

mordant 10y ago
Assuming the facts of the case are as reported, this looks like simple second-degree murder to me. Why do you think it's 'terrorism'? Why does the race of the parties involved matter to you?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- mozumder 10y ago
  > Why do you think it's 'terrorism'? Because it was a politically motivated attack on civilians, the standard the FBI uses to determine terrorism.
  - mordant 10y ago
    Nothing that's been reported conclusively demonstrates this at all. For all we know, there was some prior history between the suspect and the victims.
    - mozumder 10y ago
      > For all we know Then you should attempt to know more before commenting, such as reading the article, or any of the other articles about this incident, where the gunman literally stated what his motives were. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/02/kansas-city-shooting-investigated-hate-crime-170224063319878.html http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/02/kansas-city-shooting-i...
  - 2muchcoffeeman 10y ago
    My one google didn't find the definition on the FBI website. But there is a description from the Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/12/fbi-definition-of-terrorism/418722/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/12/fbi-def... “Domestic terrorism” means activities with the following three characteristics: Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law; Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S. If this is correct, then no, this was not terrorism. Edit:formatting
    - hd4 10y ago
      >(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
    - mozumder 10y ago
      what? - Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law; Check. - (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; Check. - Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S. Check. Why are there so many people defending terrorism in this thread? White males are committing terrorist acts.. own it. From there we can figure out how to solve the problem of white-males committing terrorist acts.. how would you solve the problem of white males committing terrorist acts?
      - mikeash 10y ago
        Because a remarkable number of people are racist, even here.
        breatheoften 10y ago
        I got into a argument with my German girlfriend last night that involved calling her a racist. We were discussing where to travel for our next holiday -- and it came to light that she would not go to France because she was afraid and said she would be uncomfortable there. She also told me that she is uncomfortable on the train when there are young muslim males on board. I tried to argue the statistics of risk with her and said that we should've also avoiding traveling to the US based on her risk assessment given the risk of being killed by mentally ill people with guns or white supremacist terrorists. Ultimately, in my opinion, she is just more comfortable with risk if it comes from white people than from brown -- I choose to call her a racist to try and demonstrate just how wrong I perceive her thinking to be. Its very depressing to watch the reasonableness and kindness of Germans that I used to perceive to be common and widespread so in decline... Racists really do seem like they are everywhere these days ...
- nabeelkhalid 10y ago
  They killed him to send a message to immigrants. Leave or die. They sent this message using murder, so yes they 'terrorised' a migrant to stop them coming over.
  - mordant 10y ago
    Unless you know the state of mind of the shooter, I'm pretty sure you can't really say that, one thing or another. Nothing that it was reported that the suspect said points to anything other than animus against the particular victims.
    - nabeelkhalid 10y ago
      the title of the article “Get out of my Country!” White Terrorist Shoots Asian-American Engineers in Wake of Trump Visa Ban"
- linuxkerneldev 10y ago
  > Assuming the facts of the case are as reported, simple second-degree murder to me Second degree murder is: 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion"; or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Most articles state the equivalent of the following, I'm using the one from The Verge: " Purinton has been charged with one count of premeditated first degree murder, and two counts of attempted premeditated first degree murder. " > Why does the race of the parties involved matter to you? " A witness said he yelled “get out of my country” to two of the victims, reportedly saying the men, believed to originally be from India, were “Middle Eastern.” " That's the description of a hate-crime as he had no prior interaction with the victims. He picked on them precisely because of his perception of their skin color and mistakenly assuming they were his intended target out-group.
- DanBC 10y ago
  > Why does the race of the parties involved matter to you? Because it mattered to the murderer. EDIT: For clarity, it can be both a hate crime and terrorism.
  - jaxn 10y ago
    Not sure why that was downvoted. That is a pretty simple litmus test for a hate-crime.
    - hd4 10y ago
      I think what is really objectionable about making this into purely a hate crime is that you are effectively saying because it's a hate crime, it can't also be politically-motivated i.e. terrorism. Much of the anger here is coming from this undeniable attempt to deflect what this really is. Like that other guy said, own it.
      - jaxn 10y ago
        I guess I don't understand the distinction of a hate crime vs terrorism. I would think hate crimes are a subset of terrorism and not a lessor charge.
        saalweachter 10y ago
        Practically they are, but in the US you aren't supposed to say it out loud.
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
        throwaway729 10y ago
        In theory, it's possible for hate crimes to not be terrorism. Kill someone because they are a certain color, but have no intent for any end goal beyond killing that one person. In practice, that probably never happens. Hate crimes almost always coincide with the intent to terrorize the target population.
- hd4 10y ago
  Well, let's see. >the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims I think the very clear and undisguised political aim here is to stop non-whites from feeling welcome or safe to live and work in America.
- hd4 10y ago
  Also, why are you so insistently trying to make this into something other than terrorism, which is clearly is, even by your own definition?
jlebrech 10y ago
when the perp is in the "in group" he's a lone wolf, when he's not he's a terrorist. simple really.
- mozumder 10y ago
  The FBI definition of terrorism doesn't require it to be a group activity.
  - jaxn 10y ago
    In-group is a sociology term. He is saying it is bigger/different from whether or not the individual is white, but whether they are a member of the in-group.
  - k-mcgrady 10y ago
    I don't think the parent means a group of people committing a crime - they mean 'in group' as in US citizen/not the enemy.
    - creshal 10y ago
      That still doesn't make sense. Domestic terrorism is a thing and has been for decades.
  - jlebrech 10y ago
    it also have to be politically motivated too, but conducted by someone alienated by the populace (i.e war doesn't count) and white lunatic doesn't count as a terrorist, but dylan roof or eliot rogers does.
  - jdeee 10y ago
    I think you may have misunderstood the comment you are commenting on. I believe they were saying that members of the socially dominate group who perform crimes are seen as outliers while members of minority groups are seen as reflecting the values of the group.
- makomk 10y ago
Udik 10y ago
In order to be a terrorist I think you need a political purpose, an ideology and a plan of some kind. From what I read in this case, this seems more like a deranged person. Instead of trying to apply the thought-blocking "terrorist" label to more people, I'd work to apply it to less people. Terrorist is often a very convenient way of referring to our enemies- when they start to hit back.
- snsr 10y ago
  > In order to be a terrorist I think you need a political purpose, an ideology and a plan of some kind. Not in the US, where this cowardly, racist attack took place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_terrorism#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_terrorism#Unite...
- mikeash 10y ago
  Political purpose: get rid of immigrants (of certain colors). Ideology: right-wing extremism. Plan: shoot some people in the group you want to leave, striking fear into the rest. Seems fitting to me.
  - Klockan 10y ago
    > Plan: shoot some people in the group you want to leave, striking fear into the rest. A person who shoots two people and then immediately goes to another bar to brag about it probably lacks the mental faculties to come up with such an elaborate plan.
    - nkrisc 10y ago
      What exactly is elaborate about a plan to shoot people?
      - Klockan 10y ago
        It isn't, but people accuse him of shooting people to scare away others which requires more thought. The murder is obviously premeditated, I am not arguing about that, I just argue that he probably didn't do it for any higher purpose than wanting them dead.
DanielBMarkham 10y ago
I'm sorry. I do not care about dictionaries. Words gain and lose meaning by connotation, not by dictionaries. Good working definitions increase our ability to solve problems. Poor working definitions decrease them. In this case the proposed definition is a poor one. If this is terrorism, there are dozens of terrorists acts every day. Hate crime? Sure. Drunken armed fool on his way to jail and a couple of guys just in the wrong place at the wrong time? Absolutely. Terrorism. Screw that. The word doesn't describe what happened. The western world is not in a war to stop armed stupid drunken men. Perhaps that's a great idea, but even then it wouldn't be terrorism. My working definition of terrorism, which has served me well over the years, is "the use of stealth to deliberately target civilians in order to effect political change"
- roninb 10y ago
  By that definition, our own government is committing terroristic acts constantly. Hell, Facebook and Google are terrorists by that definition as well. I don't necessarily agree nor disagree with the particular event at hand being labeled as a terror attack, but I'd implore you to analyze your homebrew definition. What's added? What's left out? Why should the "mainstream" definition be changed? Is it not specific enough for the people you think we should target with that term? Is it too specifically targeting people you don't think we should care about?
- barrkel 10y ago
  You have it backwards with that war; it's the "war on terror" that is a conceptual absurdity, it does not serve to prop up your definition of terror. Stealth - what does this mean? The people committing the acts need to be creeping around beforehand? Or that they need to not announce what they're going to do before they do it (not the case for Northern Ireland terrorism, where warning phone calls were all part of the terror tactic - get everyone evacuated). Further, in Northern Irish terrorism, civilians weren't deliberately targeted; in fact, many plots were modified to reduce the risk of injury to civilian bystanders. Disruption to civilians, sure, but the targets were more usually economic or governmental than civilian per se. "Effecting political change with violence committed by non-state civilian actors" might be a working definition. And I think right-wing nutjobs killing specifically targeted ethnicities counts, just as much in the US as it did in 1930s Germany.
justin66 10y ago
In the nineties the FBI categorized things like church burnings as acts of terrorism, understandably so. (and that's an important example, as there are depressingly many church burnings every year) I'm pretty sure those sorts of crimes still fall under the FBI's terrorism label but their political masters don't really play that up. "Violent crimes committed by people who are not like you who we'd like you to hate" is as accurate a definition of terrorism as anything at the political level, nowadays.
ninv 10y ago
It was not a planned attack. I would call it a hate crime instead of a terrorist attack.
- jadell 10y ago
  Why should it not be both? "I hate non-white immigrants and I want them to get out of my country, and will use deadly force on a random subset of them in order to scare the others into leaving or not coming here" is both a racist and a political statement.
geodel 10y ago
> I'm glad the writer used the term 'terrorist', something the MSM tend to shy away from when the perp is white I think in this case it is easy one. Left wing white would still be outside terrorist category.

linuxkerneldev 10y ago

"Srinivas Kuchibhotla, died of his injuries in a Kansas City hospital. He is said to have left behind a wife who is five months pregnant. ... His bereaved wife and his family are trying to raise money to send his body back to India for his funeral. " I'm terribly ashamed of the state of our shining city upon on a hill.

AckSyn 10y ago
Senseless violence is a plague. I hope they are able to send his body back where they want him buried.
- rainhacker 10y ago
  I think they'd want him cremated. But I get you sentiment.
geodel 10y ago
It is indeed a terrible loss. But what I don't understand is: > His bereaved wife and his family are trying to raise money to send his body back to India for his funeral Is it a common thing to raise money as in community support etc or despite being engineers and all people just do not save money for their emergency needs. Edit: Sorry about this question. Now I think it is rather tactless question, asked on this unfortunate occasion.
- jessaustin 10y ago
  It seems very weird for a person that age to be setting aside money for funeral expenses.
- erik998 10y ago
  The costs of a funeral, transportation, and legal work can be excessive. Additionally, no one plans to be shot at a young age. I am sure they would rather spend their savings on their children/healthcare/rent now that there is no one providing for their household. Just because he was an engineer does not mean he was paid 10x everyone else.

rdl 10y ago

This is terrible. At best, it was a drunken asshole murdering someone. It sounds like it might have been a racially motivated hate crime, though. (I'm not sure if I'd call it terrorism unless the goal were to terrorize other people, but quite possibly.)

linuxkerneldev 10y ago
> not sure if I'd call it terrorism unless the goal were to terrorize other people One of the things we've been working on in our office is learning empathy. So we take the characters in an incident narrative, reverse/flip all persons/locations and then see how it changes our perception of the incident. So in this example, if we reverse everything, it becomes: "An Indian man shouting "Get Out Of My Country" in a bar shoots and kills two promising young American engineers working in India.". The effect that has would naturally be to make Americans afraid of going to or being in India, hence: terror alert, terrorism. So I can empathize and understand why the author of the article described the murderer as a terrorist.
- jaxn 10y ago
  Guessing you don't work at Uber ;)
- ak39 10y ago
  I wanna work in your office too!
- hd4 10y ago
  Honestly reading this comment restores some of my hope in people. And it's refreshing seeing the reaction of the comments in this thread. Even though we are relatively unknown as a 'group' or whatever, it's good to know that among the ranks of programmers/engineers etc, the vast majority of us are overwhelmingly right-minded people.
- Udik 10y ago
  You can empathise, but is this right? I think it would be silly to describe it as terrorism if it had happened in India. The fact that US's mainstream media would have done exactly that, wouldn't have made it less silly. So maybe (I mean it in a good way, even if it sounds a bit direct) you should use empathy to stop labelling things like this as terrorism, instead of doing the exact opposite.

vallavaraiyan 10y ago

High time citizens from rest of the world actively boycott travelling & working in the USA. It is just not worth getting shot by a random idiot while walking on the street.

rhapsodic 10y ago
If you don't mind saying, what country are you from?
- erggr4tyh4y 10y ago
  Vallavarayan is a Tamil name.
- oblio 10y ago
  Well, he's probably from a country with fewer guns per capita than the US. Which means.. all of them. Why would a developed country need 112 guns per 100 residents is beyond me. The US: * is less dangerous than Yemen (where there's a war going on right now) * most likely has smaller hunting areas than Russia * has a standing army, unlike Switzerland yet it still has more guns per capita than any of them!
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    Nearly everywhere in the US that isn't city is open to hunting. A big exception is the National Park System, but only a few of those are very large. Of course Russia is the largest country by land area so what you say is likely to be true, but still, pretty much everyone in the US is fairly close to viable hunting grounds. Of course not everyone hunts, but then owning 2 or 3 firearms for different types of hunting isn't really outlandish.
    - oblio 10y ago
      > Of course not everyone hunts, but then owning 2 or 3 firearms for different types of hunting isn't really outlandish. The US literally has more than 1 gun per person. The US population includes: * children * senior citizens * disabled citizens * urban residents who most likely see hunting grounds once per decade * the largest prison population in the world * etc. I don't buy your argument.

hermanni666 10y ago

How about no more of these leftist propaganda sites? "White terrorist"... :DDD This has got to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Some clearly mentally problematic psycho shoots random people and picks up the first excuse that comes to his mind. This has nothing to do with politics or anything else either.

anotheryou 10y ago
Does it have to be more organized to be "political"? It clearly was acting based on some psychos political views and probably also with the attempt to effect politics in some way. I think all terrorists (no matter which definition) are mentally problematic psychos.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

ganfortran 10y ago

This is terrifying. I am speechless now. One thing comes to my mind is to avoid those encounters as possible, maybe those states as whole. Just sad.

tjr225 10y ago
That's absurd. This took place in *Olathe, Kansas- which is adjacent to the Kansas City metro area that straddles the KS MO border. This is as much an anomoly here as it would be when it happens anywhere else: https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/activeshooter_incidents_2001-2016.pdf/view https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/activeshooter_incidents_...
- frgtpsswrdlame 10y ago
  Are you sure about that? Kansas City has a problem with this sort of stuff: http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article134041159.html http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article134041159.... http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-kansas-city-bomb-plot-20150911-story.html http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-kansas-city... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overland_Park_Jewish_Community_Center_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overland_Park_Jewish_Community...
  - tjr225 10y ago
    You could say this about any city that has enough people in it: https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS723US723&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Austin+terror+Threat&safe=off&tbm=nws https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C5... https://www.google.com/search?q=Paris+Terror+Threat&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS723US723&oq=Paris+Terror+Threat&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60l4j69i61.2128j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=Paris+Terror+Threat&safe=off&tbm=nws https://www.google.com/search?q=Paris+Terror+Threat&rlz=1C5C... https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS723US723&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=bangalore+terror+threat&safe=off&tbm=nws https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C5... I think that this stuff is really, truly tragic and that one of the takeaways is that terrorism is really effective. Please don't be terrorized.

douche 10y ago

Can we deep-six this blatantly biased article and get a real news report instead?

k-mcgrady 10y ago
Here's another link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39072816 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39072816
hd4 10y ago
I think sometimes it helps to biased when the MSM narrative is going to deliberately shy away from calling things out as they actually are. But still the facts here speak for themselves. The guy shot 2 Indians specifically because he thought they were 'Middle-Eastern' (i.e. Muslim). It's terrorism and it's good the writer called it terrorism, since the BBC article seems to not use this term.
- NLips 10y ago
  I think the BBC use is very fair, so long as it is applied consistently. The guidelines for 'terrorist': Terrorist The word ‘terrorist’ is not banned, but its use can be a barrier rather than an aid to understanding. We should convey to our audience the full consequences of the act by describing what happened. We should use words which specifically describe the perpetrator such as bomber, attacker, gunman, kidnapper, insurgent and militant. We should not adopt other people's language as our own. Our responsibility is to remain objective and report in ways that enable our audiences to make their own assessments about who is doing what to whom. When we do use the term we should strive to do so with consistency in the stories we report across all our services, and in a way that does not undermine our reputation for objectivity and accuracy. It is also very important that we strive for consistency across the international and UK facing sites. If a BBC World story uses very measured language but a UK version does not, a user will rightly question the different approaches. The words ‘terror’ and ‘terrorist’ may be used in a non-specific context, or in direct quotes - but it is not for us to label a particular group or specific act as terrorist. Beware of paraphrasing and selective quotation, eg: “The Israeli prime minister said that while ‘terrorist’ attacks continued he would not back down.” Putting the single word ‘terrorist’ in quotes may give the impression that the BBC is sceptical about the prime minister’s assessment of the nature of the attacks. Domestically, we tread a similar line on Northern Ireland. The IRA is so well known, worldwide, that a label is not necessary. Groups such as the Real IRA and Continuity IRA can often be best labelled as dissident. A second reference to organisations such as the UFF and UVF could be along the lines of: The loyalist paramilitary organisation warned...

patrickg_zill 10y ago

You'll get more objective info from the YouTube video than the editorializing article.

dforrestwilson 10y ago

20 minutes drive from me. People might perceive Kansas as a backwards agrarian holdfast, but Olathe where this happened is a pretty thriving tech and aerospace corridor. Everyone here is pretty upset about it. Hopefully justice will be served.

X86BSD 10y ago
It will be. The shooter is going to get the death penalty I'm quite certain of it.

palerdot 10y ago

Freak incidents are heart-breaking, particularly when we don't really know what one could have done to prevent them. As an outsider to a typical U.S lifestyle, one thing that puzzles me is why do people need a gun even when they are in a social place like a bar. This is not a first of its kind shooting happening in U.S. As far as I can remember, all the freak incidents in U.S some way or other involve shooting, out of the mind gunmen etc. I'm thankful that at least in my country I will not get killed by a random person with whom I'm having conversation with. P.S: I'm from India.

Mithaldu 10y ago
It is perfectly well-known how to avoid such things: Stronger gun control to raise the difficulty of achieving death of others; state-enforced education levels with low to zero cost. Sadly these things run counter to the convictions of a loud enough part of the US population that they cannot usefully be implemented.
- NTripleOne 10y ago
  American just love their bear arms.
- nsxwolf 10y ago
  Problem is not enough people carry guns. This guy knew he wouldn't be met with any resistance and that's why he was able to do what he did.
  - Mithaldu 10y ago
    Please tell me you mean this as a joke. D:
    - krapp 10y ago
      It's not an uncommon belief in the US. Whenever a school shooting occurs or other mass shooting occurs, Americans come out in droves to blame it on gun control, and insist that the solution to gun violence is more guns in the hands of the "right" people. Events like that tend to lead Americans to buy more guns and ammo in anticipation of stricter gun control laws, rather than consider whether the proliferation of guns contributes to the problem at all.

Shinchy 10y ago

3 People were shot, it should be noted.

algorias 10y ago

Better source: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-kansas-india-idUSKBN1630LZ http://www.reuters.com/article/us-kansas-india-idUSKBN1630LZ

interfixus 10y ago
I don't know why you are downvoted. Most sources in this world are better than Juan Cole.

Mithaldu 10y ago

It's quite unkind to tell someone who's feeling fear because a murder happened that they are being "absurd".

tjr225 10y ago
These incidents are not limited to Kansas City nor are they common. KC is a welcoming and open minded place. If I held this same attitude I would have never visited places such as Paris or Istanbul(not that KC is as wonderful as either of those places).
Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
No. Rational heads should prevail even in these situations. What if "I guess I should just avoid white people" was the conclusion? It's just as absurd and just as demeaning to Kansas.
- Mithaldu 10y ago
  Please read my post again, i said "tell someone ... they're being absurd". Operative word being "tell". Feel free to think it, feel free to correct them kindly, but if you actually tell them those words then you ARE being unkind. Given that you value "rational heads" it is ironic you managed to not read my post with a rational head. Edit: Also, given that, as a state Kansas failed to enact measures that are proven to minimize occurence of such things, i think it does not get to complain about being demeaned. These deaths are on Kansas, as a state.
  - Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
    I wasn't going to rise to this until your edit: >Kansas failed to enact measures that are proven to minimize occurence of such things Source?
    - Mithaldu 10y ago
      http://statelaws.findlaw.com/kansas-law/kansas-gun-control-laws.html http://statelaws.findlaw.com/kansas-law/kansas-gun-control-l... "In 2015, for instance, a law was passed allowing Kansas residents to carry a concealed firearm without a permit or training." I could likely find more (education, social services, etc.), but well, i don't think i need to look further after that. E: Also have this: https://i.imgur.com/6f7lRRH.png https://i.imgur.com/6f7lRRH.png

happy-go-lucky 10y ago

He might be racially charged, but my intuition is telling me he would not have committed the crime if he were not under the influence.

wtbob 10y ago
And oddly enough, while we see people in this thread arguing for the end of the fundamental human right to bear arms, we don't see them arguing for the end of the fundamental human right to intoxication.
mido22 10y ago
would that bring back the dead...
- happy-go-lucky 10y ago
  No, for sure. What I'm trying to say is racist thoughts coupled with intoxication must have clouded his mind and led him to such an extreme.
  - ceejayoz 10y ago
    Is a drunk terrorist any less deplorable than a sober one?
    - happy-go-lucky 10y ago
      No. A situation involving terrorists carrying firearms and getting drunk is more dangerous.
mildbow 10y ago
Alcohol doesn't kill people, people kill people? :)

alistproducer2 10y ago

Total silence about this in the msm. I wonder why?

whorleater 10y ago
NY Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/24/world/asia/kansas-attack-possible-hate-crime-srinivas-kuchibhotla.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/24/world/asia/kansas-attack-... Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-kansas-india-idUSKBN1630LZ http://www.reuters.com/article/us-kansas-india-idUSKBN1630LZ CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/24/us/kansas-olathe-bar-shooting/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/24/us/kansas-olathe-bar-shooting/... Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/02/24/get-out-of-my-country-kansan-reportedly-yelled-before-shooting-2-men-from-india-killing-one/?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories_mm-kansas-151am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/02/2... Ah yes, all that "silence".
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

gravypod 10y ago

Hmm... "“Get out of my Country!” White Terrorist Shoots Asian-American Engineers in Wake of Trump Visa Ban" Oh so the guy shot two Asian-Americans because of Trump's Visa Ban. Too bad that's not at all what the article says. At most the article says "The White House sets a tone in a country. Trump’s assertion that “Islam hates us” and his project of a Muslim ban sent a signal permitting hate crimes to the millions of unbalanced people in the US into whose hands the National Rifle Association has insisted on putting firearms. " So let me get this strait. For this thought experiment I'm going to present the ideas as how I feel the author may see them. A -> B -> C A: Some guy, who was democratically elected by laws and regulations set up, established, and agreeded upon by all citizens of the US. He ran on a platform of ideas that he wanted and by extension, due to his ability to have a majority election, are mirrored by a majority of the states in the union. B: This guy does what he said he would do, or at least the closest political equivilent. C: People take this to mean we can just kill people whenever we want! That logic doesn't make sense. I don't see the connection from A -> B -> C. Maybe there are more factors but for a title like this I expect a "I have proof that A -> B and from this data and from this other data I can prove that B -> C". Also, I very much take umbridge with the statement that the NRA advocates, or results in, "unbalanced people" owning guns. I'd like to see some proof of why that claim is made. The NRA is perfectly fine with a specific set of gun control measures like FIDs, the right to refuse sale, and citizen run background checks. I don't think just stomping your feet and saying "the NRA is the problem" is going to make this (or any situation) better. I also find it very funny that the only victim not mentioned in the title is the one who isn't "Asian-American". I know many far right-wing people who I'll send this to so they can have a chuckle at this sort of white washing. Big Brother would be proud at this authors ability to create a narative in such few words. He's given "For Sale, Baby Shoes; Never worn" a run for it's money with this one. A better title would be "Three shot, one killed in Racist Attack" or something. I'm not a writer but leaving out a victum because it doesn't sound good in your title is just extremely sad in my opinion.

l8again 10y ago
A: Some guy, who was democratically elected.... B: This guy ran on a xenophobic platform, declaring to ban an entire religion (unconstitutional). Travel ban, by the admission of his own people, was a way of "making it legal". C: Emboldens extremists and racists in his fan base to commit murders. A -> B -> C There, fixed it for you.

chatwinra 10y ago

Tragic story. A GoFundMe page has been set up for Kuchibhotla’s wife and family, if you're interested in helping out. https://www.gofundme.com/srinus-familyrecovery-support https://www.gofundme.com/srinus-familyrecovery-support

ghoshbishakh 10y ago

I am an Indian student awaiting a J-1 Visa. Should I drop my plans of visiting USA? I do not feel safe travelling there myself anymore.

mildbow 10y ago
Rationally? No, you shouldn't drop your plans of visiting.
mikeash 10y ago
You'll be fine. The murder rate in the US is comparable to India's. Pretty much by definition, anything that makes the (inter)national news is a rare event. There's some bad shit going down in this country, but it's not to the point where people need to fear for their lives. (And I think/hope it will remain that way.)
driverdan 10y ago
> I do not feel safe travelling there myself anymore. Why? A single incident in a country of 300 million people does not make it an unsafe place. Do not live in fear.

alextheparrot 10y ago

I think the words of the third man, who was shot pursuing the shooter (He had thought the man had emptied his gun), are powerful: “It’s not about where he [victim] was from or his ethnicity. We’re all humans, so I just did what was right to do.”

kcdev 10y ago
Here's a video of the interview: http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article134581204.html http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article134581204....

desireco42 10y ago

Aww man, this is sad

downandout 10y ago

Timothy McVeigh was a white terrorist. This is a hate crime committed by a racist alcoholic. "Terrorism" is the wrong word here. I also take issue with this statement: >"Remember, the shooter had been told by Trump-Bannon that Muslims hate America and should be excluded from the US." This lays bare the author's intention to blame Trump for every crime that is ever committed against middle-eastern people in the US. This is obviously an absurd and extreme notion. So this article is an extremely biased, politicized version of a legitimate news event. I thought HN had an "original source" policy. The link should probably be changed to the actual news article upon which this drivel is based, which is here [1]. [1] http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article134508139.html http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article134508139....

CrossWired 10y ago
Lets not try to minimize his racism by allocating ANY of the blame on his possible alcoholism. He's a racist murder, who just happens to be a drunkard.
- downandout 10y ago
  I guess I wouldn't ever excuse or minimize any crime based upon alcoholism, so I didn't take into account that others might. I just meant that he was a drunk racist.
virtuabhi 10y ago
I have a disagreement with - "blame Trump for every crime that is ever committed against middle-eastern people in the US". Why should we not blame the people whose rhetoric is inspiring the violence towards immigrants? Obviously, no one is saying that Trump personally killed Srinivas, but (afaik) then neither did Hitler.
- downandout 10y ago
  Trump is not Hitler, as much as leftists and the media love the comparison. Did the killer even mention Trump? People with racist views were doing terrible things before Trump was even born, and they will be doing them long after he dies. If Trump has ever endorsed the murder of anyone, let alone murder based upon the intended victim's race, I would love to see the footage. Then I will stand behind your comment all the way. Until then, I don't even see a passive link.

xazJ0ku5CZnlmg 10y ago

Its quite sad to see innocent folks getting killed in the crossfire/emotions that were invoked for politics. I used to live in Kansas, am an Indian and have young kids. This has disturbed me so much emotionally I'm not even sure what to look for next and the way things are going, this is just the beginning.

shripadk 10y ago
Why not come back to India? I know the lifestyle cannot be compared to the US but hey at least you can be part of directly building the Nation. It's better to live in peace (with freedom) than live in fear (and in a golden cage).
- xazJ0ku5CZnlmg 10y ago
  India is not all that great either...I was in India for 6 months last year, and I have seen kids getting kidnapped for ransom by friends. My wife's cousin was killed for ransom last year. Dont know which is better/worse.
  - shripadk 10y ago
    True and I'm not disputing you. In India it also depends on the kind of social circle you have. I have heard of such stories myself. However, it largely depends on who you make friends with or have relations with. But these are all incidents that have a backdrop of some sort and these stories are quite common in any country you go to. I'm not talking about such incidents. What I'm talking about is random shootings: Rarely is it the case (at least I haven't heard of any in India) that some random stranger comes up to you and starts unloading bullets just because you are of some different ethnicity/background. Be it school shootings or pub fights, most incidents that come out of USA are racial targeting where the perpetrator does not have any idea about his targets (victims). Even the caste-based violence in India stems out of some real backdrop: Inter-caste marriages, dowry harassment etc. All these are avoidable if you have the right social circle. What you can't avoid is crazies going around with guns shooting random people based on how their look.

jessaustin 10y ago

As a counterpoint, elsewhere in Kansas: http://www.npr.org/2017/02/19/516016940/a-thriving-rural-towns-winning-formula-faces-new-threats-under-trump-administrat http://www.npr.org/2017/02/19/516016940/a-thriving-rural-tow... Olathe, and I guess Johnson County in general, is a weird place. It's like the Texas of the Kansas City Metro area: wealthy, egotistical, and clueless. Based on some of the jaw-dropping shit I've heard locals say, this is probably not the first time these engineers experienced an incident of public racism.

frgtpsswrdlame 10y ago
A counterpoint to your counterpoint: http://www.kwch.com/content/news/Federal-officials-to-announce-arrests-in-major-investigation-397095961.html http://www.kwch.com/content/news/Federal-officials-to-announ... Although you're correct about Johnson County.
- jessaustin 10y ago
  Thanks, I had a little feeling that I was forgetting something about Garden City. Frankly I don't see how anyone could live there, although I suppose it's a good potential source for Mars colonists. They won't miss trees or geographical features...
wesgarrison 10y ago
From Olathe. Grew up here. Ate at that restaurant last week, even. I don't find our level of racism any different than when I travel elsewhere in the US. There are bigoted people everywhere, but most people around here just want to raise a family and hang out with their neighbors, whatever color they are.

happy-go-lucky 10y ago

Guns don't help make the world a better place. I'm non-partisan.

grzm 10y ago
You're risking downvotes by expressing an expectation of downvotes, which is explicitly against the guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit to add: Thanks for updating your comment!
- happy-go-lucky 10y ago
  > Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downvote you or proclaim that you expect to get downvoted. +1. I had to remove I know I'm risking downvotes, but.
- happy-go-lucky 10y ago
  That's a wake-up call. Thank you :)

dang 10y ago

Url changed from http://www.juancole.com/2017/02/terrorist-american-engineers.html http://www.juancole.com/2017/02/terrorist-american-engineers..., which points to this.